(04-16-2024, 10:52 AM)Whatever Wrote: That's because you're failing to take into account all the limitations Higgins has, and those limitations are always going to limit his opportunities unless he plays for a team that's just uncompetitive.

Higgins is almost strictly an intermediate level receiver.  He lacks the short area quickness for most shorter routes like whips, flats, shallow crosses, and WR screens.  He also lacks the long speed to be consistently threaten the defense on deep routes.  His lack of speed even makes certain intermediate routes like deep crosses unviable.  Therefore, unless you just sit there and force feed Higgins targets on the handful of routes he is effective on, like outs, digs, curls, in's, and back shoulder fades, you're very limited in his usage.  That's the real reason he's not a #1 WR.  To be a #1, you need to be a two level threat.  Higgins isn't.  

Great post Whatever. People seriously need to come to this reality. Tee Higgins has limitations that make him being an elite #1 WR just not
realistic. He relies on his size for most of his production. He lacks short area quickness to run crisp short routes, unlike say Adonai Mitchell 
and Ladd McConkey in this draft. Brian Thomas Jr also has quicker feet than Tee with the same size. 

Tee also doesn't have deep speed like Brian Thomas Jr. These are just facts. Tee is limited in his route tree. Curls, outs, digs, posts, ins and 
back shoulder fades are about all he can be effective at. For example, a Sluggo or double move is not possible with Tee as it would be incredibly
slow and would take forever putting Burrow in a bad spot relying on the OL to hold their blocks for a long time.

(04-16-2024, 01:57 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Great post Whatever. People seriously need to come to this reality. Tee Higgins has limitations that make him being an elite #1 WR just not
realistic. He relies on his size for most of his production. He lacks short area quickness to run crisp short routes, unlike say Adonai Mitchell 
and Ladd McConkey in this draft. Brian Thomas Jr also has quicker feet than Tee with the same size. 

Tee also doesn't have deep speed like Brian Thomas Jr. These are just facts. Tee is limited in his route tree. Curls, outs, digs, posts, ins and 
back shoulder fades are about all he can be effective at. For example, a Sluggo or double move is not possible with Tee as it would be incredibly
slow and would take forever putting Burrow in a bad spot relying on the OL to hold their blocks for a long time.

You know many times I've seen a Bengal WR run 
A sluggo route since Tee was drafted ? How about maybe
Chase and that's it. The thing about running a sluggo
Route and soon get turned up field you have 
To find that 2nd gear.  Big bodied WRs like Higgy
AJ Green Cris Collionsworth were never asked 
To run sluggo routes.  And too be honest I rather
See a WR run 4 to 5 routes on the route tree well
Than all 9 routes average . 
Here something that people totally get lost 
On Tee about. The kid can run through arm tackles
He is not easy to bring down 
Tee may not have elite deep Speed but I saw him 
Torch Xavien Howard 2 years ago when Howard
Was In his prime with the Fins for a 54 yd TD catch.
Top end speed is not everything. 
If it was John Ross and Quincy Morgan and Corey Coleman.would have been in the league alot longer.
Tee Higgins is a match-up issue for CBs and Safeties.
Burrow can throw it to where Tee can snag it.
Even in perfect position that DB can't match Higgins
Catch radius 

(04-16-2024, 02:55 PM)impactplaya Wrote: You know many times I've seen a Bengal WR run 
A sluggo route since Tee was drafted ? How about maybe
Chase and that's it. The thing about running a sluggo
Route and soon get turned up field you have 
To find that 2nd gear.  Big bodied WRs like Higgy
AJ Green Cris Collionsworth were never asked 
To run sluggo routes.  And too be honest I rather
See a WR run 4 to 5 routes on the route tree well
Than all 9 routes average . 
Here something that people totally get lost 
On Tee about. The kid can run through arm tackles
He is not easy to bring down 
Tee may not have elite deep Speed but I saw him 
Torch Xavien Howard 2 years ago when Howard
Was In his prime with the Fins for a 54 yd TD catch.
Top end speed is not everything. 
If it was John Ross and Quincy Morgan and Corey Coleman.would have been in the league alot longer.
Tee Higgins is a match-up issue for CBs and Safeties.
Burrow can throw it to where Tee can snag it.
Even in perfect position that DB can't match Higgins
Catch radius 

Cannot disagree with any of that Impactplaya. That is why I think Tee is one of the best #2 WR's in the league from what you say here.

I just cannot agree with Tee being a #1 right now until he proves it over a period of time and that probably won't happen here.

(04-16-2024, 03:02 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Cannot disagree with any of that Impactplaya. That is why I think Tee is one of the best #2 WR's in the league from what you say here.

I just cannot agree with Tee being a #1 right now until he proves it over a period of time and that probably won't happen here.

On this what i would say is it’s not Tee’s fault we have Chase


Tee is absolutely a number 1. If it walks like a number 1 and quacks like a number 1 it’s a number 1.

When Chase is hurt he 100% turns into that guy.

But if i were Cincy I’d be saying he doesn’t have enough games

(04-16-2024, 07:54 PM)Housh Wrote: When Chase is hurt he 100% turns into that guy.

Maybe on the roster, but not the numbers. When he takes over, he's a #2 in a #1 slot and his numbers show it. Sure, he thrived a few games against a weak Pittsburgh team, but he also failed miserably against some other teams who were arguably just as bad at defense.

(04-16-2024, 01:57 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Great post Whatever. People seriously need to come to this reality. Tee Higgins has limitations that make him being an elite #1 WR just not
realistic. He relies on his size for most of his production. He lacks short area quickness to run crisp short routes, unlike say Adonai Mitchell 
and Ladd McConkey in this draft. Brian Thomas Jr also has quicker feet than Tee with the same size. 

Tee also doesn't have deep speed like Brian Thomas Jr. These are just facts. Tee is limited in his route tree. Curls, outs, digs, posts, ins and 
back shoulder fades are about all he can be effective at. For example, a Sluggo or double move is not possible with Tee as it would be incredibly
slow and would take forever putting Burrow in a bad spot relying on the OL to hold their blocks for a long time.

No one has said he is an elite number 1. But he IS a top 20 WR, by most any measurable or metric you can pull since we joined the league.

Since 2021, Justin Jefferson has twenty two 100+ yard games. Most in the nfl. Cooper Kupp has 20, davante adams 19, Tyreek hill 17, ceedee lamb 16… so on and so forth.

Tee Higgins has 10 such games over that time span, good for 13th (tied with waddle) most in the nfl.

Furthermore, when he gets to the 100 yard mark, he is averaging over 17 yards per catch.

Tee Higgins is NOT cooper Kupp, I repeated NOT Kupp. But, he is of similar archetype build. Same for davante Adams and the great Larry Fitzgerald.

If anyone can bring any facts/production to the table on how tee Higgins isn’t a number one receiver, I would be open to it. But so far it’s just opinions and a lot of said so.

(04-16-2024, 01:57 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Great post Whatever. People seriously need to come to this reality. Tee Higgins has limitations that make him being an elite #1 WR just not
realistic. He relies on his size for most of his production. He lacks short area quickness to run crisp short routes, unlike say Adonai Mitchell 
and Ladd McConkey in this draft. Brian Thomas Jr also has quicker feet than Tee with the same size. 

Tee also doesn't have deep speed like Brian Thomas Jr. These are just facts. Tee is limited in his route tree. Curls, outs, digs, posts, ins and 
back shoulder fades are about all he can be effective at. For example, a Sluggo or double move is not possible with Tee as it would be incredibly
slow and would take forever putting Burrow in a bad spot relying on the OL to hold their blocks for a long time.

Tee Higgins had the 5th fastest play of week 16 on an 80 yard TD. He reached top speed of 20.84 MPH.

His size/speed combo is plenty fast enough.

(04-16-2024, 07:54 PM)Housh Wrote: On this what i would say is it’s not Tee’s fault we have Chase


Tee is absolutely a number 1. If it walks like a number 1 and quacks like a number 1 it’s a number 1.

When Chase is hurt he 100% turns into that guy.

But if i were Cincy I’d be saying he doesn’t have enough games

Not 100%, he had games when Chase went down where he didn't do much. He had a couple great games against the stealers 
that make his numbers look better than they actually were as HarleyDog says here.

(04-16-2024, 08:00 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Maybe on the roster, but not the numbers. When he takes over, he's a #2 in a #1 slot and his numbers show it. Sure, he thrived a few games against a weak Pittsburgh team, but he also failed miserably against some other teams who were arguably just as bad at defense.

(04-17-2024, 01:42 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: No one has said he is an elite number 1.  But he IS a top 20 WR, by most any measurable or metric you can pull since we joined the league.  

Since 2021, Justin Jefferson has twenty two 100+ yard games. Most in the nfl.  Cooper Kupp has 20, davante adams 19, Tyreek hill 17, ceedee lamb 16… so on and so forth.

Tee Higgins has 10 such games over that time span, good for 13th (tied with waddle) most in the nfl.  

Furthermore, when he gets to the 100 yard mark, he is averaging over 17 yards per catch.

Tee Higgins is NOT cooper Kupp, I repeated NOT Kupp. But, he is of similar archetype build.  Same for davante Adams and the great Larry Fitzgerald.  

If anyone can bring any facts/production to the table on how tee Higgins isn’t a number one receiver, I would be open to it.  But so far it’s just opinions and a lot of said so.

Like Whatever and I said, Tee relies on his size for most of his production, he has limitations because of his poor short area quickness
to run short routes and to catch a short catch and take it the distance like a true #1 in Ja'Marr Chase can.

(04-17-2024, 01:53 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Tee Higgins had the 5th fastest play of week 16 on an 80 yard TD.  He reached  top speed of 20.84 MPH.  

His size/speed combo is plenty fast enough.

Hey, he ran fast once, 5th fastest lol

I disagree, it isn't fast enough to be a #1 especially in tight spots where short area quickness is what separates the good from the great.

(04-17-2024, 02:10 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Not 100%, he had games when Chase went down where he didn't do much. He had a couple great games against the stealers 
that make his numbers look better than they actually were as HarleyDog says here.





Like Whatever and I said, Tee relies on his size for most of his production, he has limitations because of his poor short area quickness
to run short routes and to catch a short catch and take it the distance like a true #1 in Ja'Marr Chase can.


Hey, he ran fast once, 5th fastest lol

I disagree, it isn't fast enough to be a #1 especially in tight spots where short area quickness is what separates the good from the great.

lol, no one is calling him great, except for the anti tee guys. Tee Higgins is a very good top 20 WR. Once you get past the top 10-12 guys, tee Higgins enters the conversation.

Tee Higgins top speed is faster than Mike Evan’s, aj green (from what I could find). Again, happy to hear out your side but could you provide any details/facts showing his slow speed and how that correlates into not being able to produce.

(04-17-2024, 02:16 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: lol, no one is calling him great, except for the anti tee guys.  Tee Higgins is a very good top 20 WR.  Once you get past the top 10-12 guys, tee Higgins enters the conversation.  

Tee Higgins top speed is faster than Mike Evan’s, aj green (from what I could find).  Again, happy to hear out your side but could you provide any details/facts showing his slow speed and how that correlates into not being able to produce.

I am using my eye balls Bengalbug and no way Tee Higgins is faster than AJ Green in his prime on deep routes, no way.

If you cannot see that Tee is slower than Ja'Marr on short routes I just don't know what to say. You guys are saying Tee is a #1, well 
we have a #1 on our own team to compare him to and sorry, he falls short by a long ways of Ja'Marr Chase the WR we need to pay.

(04-17-2024, 02:10 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Not 100%, he had games when Chase went down where he didn't do much. He had a couple great games against the stealers 
that make his numbers look better than they actually were as HarleyDog says here.





Like Whatever and I said, Tee relies on his size for most of his production, he has limitations because of his poor short area quickness
to run short routes and to catch a short catch and take it the distance like a true #1 in Ja'Marr Chase can.


Hey, he ran fast once, 5th fastest lol

I disagree, it isn't fast enough to be a #1 especially in tight spots where short area quickness is what separates the good from the great.

Tee Higgins can take a short pass to the house.

https://www.nfl.com/videos/can-t-miss-play-80-yard-td-tee-higgins-long-score-has-similar-aesthetic-to-picke

We are simply just saying things that are not true at this point

(04-17-2024, 02:22 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Tee Higgins can take a short pass to the house.

https://www.nfl.com/videos/can-t-miss-play-80-yard-td-tee-higgins-long-score-has-similar-aesthetic-to-picke

We are simply just saying things that are not true at this point

That was wide open, just terrible coverage by the stealers. I think Boyd could of taken that to the house as well.

You disagree?

(04-17-2024, 01:42 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: No one has said he is an elite number 1.  But he IS a top 20 WR, by most any measurable or metric you can pull since we joined the league.  

Since 2021, Justin Jefferson has twenty two 100+ yard games. Most in the nfl.  Cooper Kupp has 20, davante adams 19, Tyreek hill 17, ceedee lamb 16… so on and so forth.

Tee Higgins has 10 such games over that time span, good for 13th (tied with waddle) most in the nfl.  

Furthermore, when he gets to the 100 yard mark, he is averaging over 17 yards per catch.

Tee Higgins is NOT cooper Kupp, I repeated NOT Kupp. But, he is of similar archetype build.  Same for davante Adams and the great Larry Fitzgerald.  

If anyone can bring any facts/production to the table on how tee Higgins isn’t a number one receiver, I would be open to it.  But so far it’s just opinions and a lot of said so.

People have provided facts and stats proving Tee is not a top 20 WR, you just choose not to believe them. I know, because I did just that in this thread.

Second hint Tee is not a top 20 WR is that you're on an Bengals fan message board, where the homerism is strongest, and you are the only one making that claim,

Third bit of proof comes in no one is sniffing around and making offers for Tee. It's like he's radioactive and no one wants to touch him. Now if he were a true top 20 guy, other teams would be all over him as he would be upgrading the WR room, taking he top spot for at least 12 teams, but that's not happening either.

Some of the stats you come up with for Tee remind me of the movie Mr. Baseball with Tom Selleck, when his character, Jack Elliot proudly stated, "LAST SEASON, I led this team in ninth-inning doubles in the month of August!"

(04-17-2024, 03:02 PM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: People have provided facts and stats proving Tee is not a top 20 WR, you just choose not to believe them. I know, because I did just that in this thread.

Second hint Tee is not a top 20 WR is that you're on an Bengals fan message board, where the homerism is strongest, and you are the only one making that claim,

Third bit of proof comes in no one is sniffing around and making offers for Tee. It's like he's radioactive and no one wants to touch him. Now if he were a true top 20 guy, other teams would be all over him as he would be upgrading the WR room, taking he top spot for at least 12 teams, but that's not happening either.

Some of the stats you come up with for Tee remind me of the movie Mr. Baseball with Tom Selleck, when his character, Jack Elliot proudly stated, "[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]LAST SEASON, I led this team in ninth-inning doubles in the month of August!"[/color]

Can you please refresh them for me? I’ll happily say I’m wrong here, but every meaningful statistic that can be measured lists tee as a top 20.

19. TEE HIGGINS, CINCINNATI BENGALS

2022 was a big year for Higgins because he was able to show that he could still look like a true No. 1 receiver without Ja'Marr Chase, who missed time due to injury, on the field drawing the attention of defenders. Higgins justified the narrative that he can be an elite receiver in any offense and caught 61.5% of his contested targets.

(04-17-2024, 03:05 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Can you please refresh them for me?  I’ll happily say I’m wrong here, but every meaningful statistic that can be measured lists tee as a top 20.

19. TEE HIGGINS, CINCINNATI BENGALS

2022 was a big year for Higgins because he was able to show that he could still look like a true No. 1 receiver without Ja'Marr Chase, who missed time due to injury, on the field drawing the attention of defenders. Higgins justified the narrative that he can be an elite receiver in any offense and caught 61.5% of his contested targets.

Just look at last year's stats, 656 yards, 5 td's, and couldn't stay healthy.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/player/_/stat/receiving/table/receiving/sort/receivingYards/dir/desc


I am certain others have posted more as well, but not getting sucked into some discussion about Higgin with someone who has a more slanted opinion of his value than his current agent.


Maybe someone can check PFF and tell you where they have him grading out from last season? Here is one of their top 20 lists. I will not spoil it.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-highest-graded-wide-receivers-2023-nfl-season


I would be interested in seeing third party sites that have Tee listed as current top 20 talent, without the Mr. Baseball qualifiers...

(04-17-2024, 03:18 PM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: Just look at last year's stats, 656 yards, 5 td's, and couldn't stay healthy.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/player/_/stat/receiving/table/receiving/sort/receivingYards/dir/desc


I am certain others have posted more as well, but not getting sucked into some discussion about Higgin with someone who has a more slanted opinion of his value than his current agent.


Maybe someone can check PFF and tell you where they have him grading out from last season? Here is one of their top 20 lists. I will not spoil it.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-highest-graded-wide-receivers-2023-nfl-season


I would be interested in seeing third party sites that have Tee listed as current top 20 talent, without the Mr. Baseball qualifiers...

Here we go… this is nonsense. So can Taylor Britt and joe burrow are trash. Especially Joe burrow, because his stats were down across the board. Pff had tee Higgins as the number 4 free agent this year.

FRANCHISE TAG. Injuries hampered almost the entire 2023 season for Higgins after his second consecutive 1,000-yard season in 2022 with a receiving grade above 75.0. A franchise tag already seemed likely heading into this season, and with little new data to impact the negotiation either way, that seems inevitable. The field-stretching, jump-ball receiver should have the chance to bounce back in 2024 along with the entire Bengals team following a disappointing campaign.

(04-17-2024, 03:18 PM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: Just look at last year's stats, 656 yards, 5 td's, and couldn't stay healthy.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/player/_/stat/receiving/table/receiving/sort/receivingYards/dir/desc


I am certain others have posted more as well, but not getting sucked into some discussion about Higgin with someone who has a more slanted opinion of his value than his current agent.


Maybe someone can check PFF and tell you where they have him grading out from last season? Here is one of their top 20 lists. I will not spoil it.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-highest-graded-wide-receivers-2023-nfl-season


I would be interested in seeing third party sites that have Tee listed as current top 20 talent, without the Mr. Baseball qualifiers...

Tee Higgins 23 - https://thegameday.com/nfl/power-rankings/wr/#50-41

Tee Higgins 22 - https://www.profootballnetwork.com/best-wide-receivers-nfl-rankings/

Tee Higgins’ future in Cincinnati is unclear, but his talent remains obvious.

Injuries limited Higgins to just 42 catches for 656 yards and five TDs in 12 games last season, but he still was a force when on the field. He also racked up 74 catches and at least 1,000 yards in the previous two campaigns.

(04-17-2024, 03:42 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Tee Higgins 23 - https://thegameday.com/nfl/power-rankings/wr/#50-41

Tee Higgins 22 - https://www.profootballnetwork.com/best-wide-receivers-nfl-rankings/

Tee Higgins’ future in Cincinnati is unclear, but his talent remains obvious.

Injuries limited Higgins to just 42 catches for 656 yards and five TDs in 12 games last season, but he still was a force when on the field. He also racked up 74 catches and at least 1,000 yards in the previous two campaigns.

Your sources are refuting your idea he is a top 20 WR.


I am curious where he shows up on other sites, and admit I am not the most familiar with the two sources you provided.

We get it Bengalbug. You think Tee is a #1 WR, we don't, fair enough. I hope some other team thinks the same as you and offers us an
early 2nd round pick or more for him and we jump on it. This way Tee can go and give it a go as a #1 WR, but he sure better have a decent
QB or it won't matter and all he was doing was chasing money and we will never know for sure.

(04-17-2024, 02:22 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I am using my eye balls Bengalbug and no way Tee Higgins is faster than AJ Green in his prime on deep routes, no way.

If you cannot see that Tee is slower than Ja'Marr on short routes I just don't know what to say. You guys are saying Tee is a #1, well 
we have a #1 on our own team to compare him to and sorry, he falls short by a long ways of Ja'Marr Chase the WR we need to pay.

I knew Tee was a little on the slow side during his rookie year on this play against the Colts.

https://youtu.be/llYvcrbNeiM?si=MyohMHY30keWBiVk

Thought that was going to be 6 for sure.