I doubt he makes it to our pick in the 4th, so to me he wasn't a reach. There is good value here made even better with the earlier addition of Jenkins. This IDL rotation is gonna be versatile w 3 guys viably rotating at 3T who can all play "shade NT". They are going to replace Reader's on-field productivity by committee and McK's role within it absolutely makes him not a reach, in my opinion.

I doubt he's Shelvin 2.0. MKJ actually likes playing football. He's not out there just because he's big. Now whether he can get his game off in the NFL remains to be seen. But he strikes me as a legit playmaker, which is a bit odd. His get-off is impressive, he can close, and he's adept at wrapping guys up. Like a 3T trapped in a NT's body. I don't know if that's good or bad but I'm happy to have him. We needed someone.

(04-29-2024, 11:23 PM)sandwedge Wrote: This is what I don't understand, who's to say a player is a reach. I would bet that each teams big board is different and that they are different than a beat writer's list. I agree, the way players were getting picked he most likely wouldn't have been there in 4 and we wanted him so we drafted him. To me that is not a reach

Every team's big board is drastically different from each other. They're also drastically different from any of the media members since the teams have access to info that never gets released to the public. This year it was rumored that the Patriots only had 80 draftable players on their board, even tighter than the Belichick years. Pete Carroll and Sean Payton are also notorious for keeping small draft boards. 

The Bengals tend to be a little more open. They've been rumored to always have bigger boards. Some teams are usually drafting the UDFAs, they aren't convinced they can sign after the draft, in the 6th and 7th rounds (or 4th if you're Belichick). Duke has mentioned multiple times before that the player they've taken in the 7th is a guy they have a 5th round grade on. 

Comparing draft boards can make your head spin if you're not in the process.

(04-30-2024, 12:24 AM)tms Wrote: I doubt he's Shelvin 2.0. MKJ actually likes playing football. He's not out there just because he's big. Now whether he can get his game off in the NFL remains to be seen. But he strikes me as a legit playmaker, which is a bit odd. His get-off is impressive, he can close, and he's adept at wrapping guys up. Like a 3T trapped in a NT's body. I don't know if that's good or bad but I'm happy to have him. We needed someone.

There is no way Jackson is Shelvin. He was a captain at A&M.

And he is a better player. 

And, IMHO, Jackson in the late 3rd was fine. PFN had him there. NTs get devalued in some boards due to not getting a lot of sacks and playing reduced snap counts. 

Plus, in our division, after losing Reader, and with the lack of NTs in this draft after Sweat & Jackson, makes this seem like a good oick to me. 

Shelvin graded out in the 99th percentile on some advanced metric that I forget, but it was clear that he wasn't a player that was going to do much besides make a few plays in the run game.

Jackson looks really raw, but could become a really good player if he comes in with the right attitude. I don't think a lot of players really developed at TAMU the past three years.

(04-27-2024, 04:12 AM)Whatever Wrote: Jackson was the #159 prospect, on average, so yeah, pretty big reach at #97.

That said, they needed a NT and there aren't many in this draft, so I understand the pick even if I wouldn't personally have made it.

Depends where you look.
NFLDraftBuzz had his average overall rank across all their scouting services as 116.1 pick.
There's a chance he would have gone off the board by the Bengals' 4th round pick.
And there really weren't many pure NTs in the draft.

If anything, they got a Tupou replacement. However, there are a lot of similarities to Reader when he came out of college, so I think Reader if Jackson's ceiling.
Either way, I think NT and run defense as a whole should be improved between Jenkins and Jackson.

The whole concept of “reaching” is super subjective. The judgment is based on the opinions of some draftniks after all. Where it has issues is every team creates their own board based on their own needs. If at a given spot a player is on the top of the board for their team it only makes sense to take them. So IMHO a true reach is something weird like some of the QB picks at the top of the first round.

Sitting here wondering what all the folks that are saying Jackson wasn't a reach thought about the Drew Sample pick...

(04-30-2024, 10:15 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Depends where you look.
NFLDraftBuzz had his average overall rank across all their scouting services as 116.1 pick.
There's a chance he would have gone off the board by the Bengals' 4th round pick.
And there really weren't many pure NTs in the draft.

If anything, they got a Tupou replacement. However, there are a lot of similarities to Reader when he came out of college, so I think Reader if Jackson's ceiling.
Either way, I think NT and run defense as a whole should be improved between Jenkins and Jackson.

Yeah, you realize those aren't the most updated rankings Draft Buzz is using, right?

For example they use 33rd Team's ranking of 98 from February, but 33rd Team had him ranked 187 overall on 4/23.  Mock Draft Database they have as 134, when their most recent is 159.  Draft Countdown, they use his 90 rank from February, not his most recent rank of 134 from 4/19.

The Consensus Big Board gets updated daily.  I don't know what methodology Draft Buzz uses, but they don't use the most current information.

We will have to see how he does.  Even low ranked prospects can turn out good.  But from a value perspective, he was bad value and we reached nearly 2 rounds for him.

(04-30-2024, 01:08 PM)Whatever Wrote: Yeah, you realize those aren't the most updated rankings Draft Buzz is using, right?

For example they use 33rd Team's ranking of 98 from February, but 33rd Team had him ranked 187 overall on 4/23.  Mock Draft Database they have as 134, when their most recent is 159.  Draft Countdown, they use his 90 rank from February, not his most recent rank of 134 from 4/19.

The Consensus Big Board gets updated daily.  I don't know what methodology Draft Buzz uses, but they don't use the most current information.

We will have to see how he does.  Even low ranked prospects can turn out good.  But from a value perspective, he was bad value and we reached nearly 2 rounds for him.

Many of the projected mid round guys went off the board earlier than expected. Fiske, Sweat, orororororho, Maason, Hall, Carter. A lot of those names were available later in mocks than where they went in real life.

(04-30-2024, 01:08 PM)Whatever Wrote: Yeah, you realize those aren't the most updated rankings Draft Buzz is using, right?

For example they use 33rd Team's ranking of 98 from February, but 33rd Team had him ranked 187 overall on 4/23.  Mock Draft Database they have as 134, when their most recent is 159.  Draft Countdown, they use his 90 rank from February, not his most recent rank of 134 from 4/19.

The Consensus Big Board gets updated daily.  I don't know what methodology Draft Buzz uses, but they don't use the most current information.

We will have to see how he does.  Even low ranked prospects can turn out good.  But from a value perspective, he was bad value and we reached nearly 2 rounds for him.

Agree, DraftBuzz does a good job with historical data from high school to college, but their rankings and assumptions are almost always at least a year old. 

(04-30-2024, 01:08 PM)Whatever Wrote: Yeah, you realize those aren't the most updated rankings Draft Buzz is using, right?

For example they use 33rd Team's ranking of 98 from February, but 33rd Team had him ranked 187 overall on 4/23.  Mock Draft Database they have as 134, when their most recent is 159.  Draft Countdown, they use his 90 rank from February, not his most recent rank of 134 from 4/19.

The Consensus Big Board gets updated daily.  I don't know what methodology Draft Buzz uses, but they don't use the most current information.

We will have to see how he does.  Even low ranked prospects can turn out good.  But from a value perspective, he was bad value and we reached nearly 2 rounds for him.

Jackson's projections were all over the place. One example:

A couple of guys who put in a ton of time that I really respect -- Dane Brugler thought 6/7 round, while Ian Cummings felt 3/4 round was more accurate.

So, who's right? He's a 'reach' if you use the projections of some...but not if you use others. It's just really subjective.

The bottom line is that the Bengals had a need for a big body in the middle that offered talent and upside. Jackson offers that and was pretty much of the best of what was left in terms of what they were looking for, so I really don't have an issue with them talking him at 97.

(04-30-2024, 12:04 AM)The D.O.Z. Wrote: I doubt he makes it to our pick in the 4th, so to me he wasn't a reach. There is good value here made even better with the earlier addition of Jenkins. This IDL rotation is gonna be versatile w 3 guys viably rotating at 3T who can all play "shade NT". They are going to replace Reader's on-field productivity by committee and McK's role within it absolutely makes him not a reach, in my opinion.

McK was not a reach, people saying this did not research this guy. Like you said, I bet he would of been taken in the 4th round if we
didn't take him in the late 3rd. I had multiple Mocks where this guy was never around in the 4th. I always had to take him in the late 3rd.

(04-30-2024, 12:24 AM)tms Wrote: I doubt he's Shelvin 2.0. MKJ actually likes playing football. He's not out there just because he's big. Now whether he can get his game off in the NFL remains to be seen. But he strikes me as a legit playmaker, which is a bit odd. His get-off is impressive, he can close, and he's adept at wrapping guys up. Like a 3T trapped in a NT's body. I don't know if that's good or bad but I'm happy to have him. We needed someone.

Very good first step which could make him a dual threat as a pass rusher and a run stopper as he takes up a lot of space and is good 
as it gets staying and winning low.

(04-30-2024, 02:02 AM)DYT-Flyer Wrote: Shelvin graded out in the 99th percentile on some advanced metric that I forget, but it was clear that he wasn't a player that was going to do much besides make a few plays in the run game.

Jackson looks really raw, but could become a really good player if he comes in with the right attitude. I don't think a lot of players really developed at TAMU the past three years.

As a Seminoles fan....I know that program all too well from a few years ago.

(04-27-2024, 01:12 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Is it really fair to call the pick a reach, when it is at a position where supply is evaporating fast? I mean by the time DJ Reader had signed with Detroit, the free agent class of NTs was essentially dried up. The one guy who was available and looked viable from a football standpoint was brought into the building and determined not to be a good personality fit with the team.

With T'Vondre Sweat and Maason Smith going as early as they did, it set off some panic buttons for teams that came into the draft intending to walk away with a potential starter in the middle. I don't blame the Bengals for double dipping at the position, as they came into the draft with only two viable interior DL signed to the team, and one of them is heading into the final year of his contract.

People who dismiss the McKinnley Jackson as merely a "reach" are being very short sighted, particularly from a football standpoint. After Reader went down with another severe injury, this team would have been lucky to stop a HS team from running the ball on them. Kudos to the Bengals staff for deciding that was unacceptable and doing the best that they could to remedy the situation.

He reminds me a lot of Reader when he was drafted.  

My whole thing was that when you get rid of Reader you are asking to have to reach.   Bad decision right there.

But I think Jackson will surprise us.  He'll have his learning curve, but he has the raw traits and the intensity to be a good nose tackle.   

Combine him with Jenkins and Hill and we nave a nice defensive interior.   A good pick.  People are overly concerned with reaching.   The key is to get the players you want.

  I really wanted sweat and was hoping his DUI would play into our hands, but it was not to be.  They did the right thing

(04-30-2024, 01:36 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Jackson's projections were all over the place. One example:

A couple of guys who put in a ton of time that I really respect -- Dane Brugler thought 6/7 round, while Ian Cummings felt 3/4 round was more accurate.

So, who's right? He's a 'reach' if you use the projections of some...but not if you use others. It's just really subjective.

The bottom line is that the Bengals had a need for a big body in the middle that offered talent and upside. Jackson offers that and was pretty much of the best of what was left in terms of what they were looking for, so I really don't have an issue with them talking him at 97.

I know the guy's a little on the eccentric side, but Drew Boylhart from the Huddle Report had him as his top DT

But Drew tends to contradict his own assessments.  Jackson's downside was his difficulty shedding blocks and defeating double teams.

We'll see.

(04-30-2024, 04:35 PM)3wt Wrote: He reminds me a lot of Reader when he was drafted.  

My whole thing was that when you get rid of Reader you are asking to have to reach.   Bad decision right there.

But I think Jackson will surprise us.  He'll have his learning curve, but he has the raw traits and the intensity to be a good nose tackle.   

Combine him with Jenkins and Hill and we nave a nice defensive interior.   A good pick.  People are overly concerned with reaching.   The key is to get the players you want.

  I really wanted sweat and was hoping his DUI would play into our hands, but it was not to be.  They did the right thing

I really think that the Titans reached on Sweat big time, especially after studying up more on his DWI and the details.

That was just such a stupid thing to do when Lyft and Uber are available in these times to prevent drinking and driving.

Agree on McKinnley's similarity to DJ Reader, I think that McKinnley has a chance to be a better pass rusher on the inside himself with
his quick first step. He is very good at getting low and the low man wins most of the time.

(04-30-2024, 12:31 PM)Whatever Wrote: Sitting here wondering what all the folks that are saying Jackson wasn't a reach thought about the Drew Sample pick...

Ugggggghhhh

I think everyone was agreed about that one.

But he WAS considered one of the top couple of blocking tight ends in the game last year.

(04-30-2024, 04:40 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I really think that the Titans reached on Sweat big time, especially after studying up more on his DWI and the details.

That was just such a stupid thing to do when Lyft and Uber are available in these times to prevent drinking and driving.

Agree on McKinnley's similarity to DJ Reader, I think that McKinnley has a chance to be a better pass rusher on the inside himself with
his quick first step. He is very good at getting low and the low man wins most of the time.

We'll see Nate.   I loved Sweat's tape.   He rag dolled everything he touched.  He and JPJ were my two favorite linemen in the draft.

But I agree that Jackson has a lot of upside.   I think we're going to be pleasantly surprised by our two new DTs.   I can't wait to see them in action.

Reaching on a day 2 pick (a third at that) by a round or two, is a whole lot different than doing that on day 1.

Only time will tell, but by all accounts the bengals liked him enough that the fit/need warranted the pick. That’s really all that matters.