(05-17-2024, 05:11 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: At least he's taking good care of himself, for himself. Did he show to the voluntary team workouts?

Did Chase show up for voluntary workouts? 

(05-17-2024, 05:14 PM)Eraserhead Wrote: Did Chase show up for voluntary workouts? 

Why does that matter? He's not the one with controversy surrounding his future with the team, Tee is. Heck, even Hendrickson showed up.

(05-17-2024, 05:16 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Why does that matter? He's not the one with controversy surrounding his future with the team, Tee is. Heck, even Hendrickson showed up.

IDK,, you brought it up. lol

What's the controversy,, except in fans minds? They tagged him. He asked for a trade. The said nah baby nah. He said he'll play under the tag. He's working his ass off right now getting in great shape.

(05-17-2024, 05:21 PM)Eraserhead Wrote: IDK,, you brought it up. lol

What's the controversy,, except in fans minds? They tagged him. He asked for a trade. The said nah baby nah. He said he'll play under the tag. 

The controversy is in the general football following public, not just Bengal fans' minds. Hell, I've got a son whose a Browns fan that is fantasizing about having Higgins on the Browns roster, several Steeler fan friends who would love to have Higgins on their roster. You can try to downplay the controversial aspect of the Higgins situation, but that does not mean that it isn't a real thing. And btw, I would totally expect Higgins' agent to tell him to "keep himself healthy" for free agency.

(05-17-2024, 05:29 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The controversy is in the general football following public, not just Bengal fans' minds. Hell, I've got a son whose a Browns fan that is fantasizing about having Higgins on the Browns roster, several Steeler fan friends who would love to have Higgins on their roster. You can try to downplay the controversial aspect of the Higgins situation, but that does not mean that it isn't a real thing. And btw, I would totally expect Higgins' agent to tell him to "keep himself healthy" for free agency.

So you know dudes who are fans of other teams and they would like Higgins on their team??

(05-17-2024, 05:21 PM)Eraserhead Wrote: IDK,, you brought it up. lol

What's the controversy,, except in fans minds? They tagged him. He asked for a trade. The said nah baby nah. He said he'll play under the tag. He's working his ass off right now getting in great shape.

Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily agree with it being 'controversial' because every team deals with this stuff...but you'd always rather not have it hanging out there either. I just feel like Tee will show up, be a professional and play well...hopefully, staying healthy all year.

(05-17-2024, 04:05 PM)J24 Wrote: Losing Tee is going to be huge no matter how you slice it. Add on too the fact that we could have traded him this offseason to lesson the impact of his loss makes the FO look even dumber.

Once we again we don't know what was offered for Tee in a trade if anything, only rumors. I was all for trading Tee during the 
Draft, but no point now unless a team loses a WR and wants to give us quite a bit for him. Even then, might be better to just 
keep Tee here and make a run at a SB with him on the team.

(05-17-2024, 04:08 PM)CJD Wrote: To be clear, (almost) any player can be replaced. The Bengals have shown the ability to replace players fairly well, especially at WR, where we have had at least 1 tier 1 receiver every season for the last 25 years.

I'm looking at it from an asset management stand point.

You have Jessie Bates. A tier 1 safety who wants to stay in Cincinnati, and you fail to sign him because of the 2nd year guarantee when everyone in the universe knows that you will not cut them after 1 year, even if it's the worst season in the NFL. Just give him the money.

You have Tee Higgins. A tier 1 (or tier 2, whatever) wide receiver who has shown he can be a #1 receiver (some of his best games are when Chase was injured), and who can make circus catches regularly. You have him on a cheap deal in the 2023 off season where everyone was talking about trading for him.

You don't trade him because "he's too valuable."

Now, it's one year later, and you don't even want to offer him 20M AAV?

If he is so valuable, lock him up or trade him for the first round pick you plan to use to replace him.

We let Bates go and got basically nothing for him. 

If we continue down this embarrassing path, we're going to lose Higgins in 2025 and get nothing for him either.

Either lock up your assets or trade them when their value is at its highest.

The Bengals are sitting on the fence between these two options in the absolute worst way possible.

And they're embarrassing themselves in the process, with two players requesting trades and leaks coming that they are cheaping out on Higgins without any response from the front office.

This is a Super Bowl caliber QB and a super bowl caliber roster at the moment.

I want a Super Bowl caliber front office. One that knows how to manage its assets.

Guess I understand what you mean than CJD. I don't think we are in a bad place with Tee on the team and needing to have a big 
year to get paid big next year by another team. It only hurts his stock if he sucks it up this year with us after not having a good year
last year. Also could hurt if we pay him what he wants in an extension and we cannot afford to keep some players here longer who
still have something in them.

(05-17-2024, 04:16 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: What makes the team better this year...having or not having Tee on the roster?

I don't think it's 'dumb' to get at least one more year out of a talented WR that makes your team stronger because he's experienced in the system and has established chemistry with the QB. If the goal is to make a legit SB run this year, then having Tee out there is the smartest move, IMO.

Agree Holic as usual. It is best to just keep Tee on the Tag this year and make a run at a Super Bowl.

I was for trading him during the Draft but it didn't happen and we don't know the particulars of why.

Just have to hope Tee stays healthy and has his best year before moving on.

(05-17-2024, 06:08 PM)Eraserhead Wrote: So you know dudes who are fans of other teams and they would like Higgins on their team??

Cute gif, but not substantial. Those fans of other teams don't necessarily see Higgins as WR1, just a guy that would make their team better. However, I don't see either of those teams paying Higgins WR1 ($25M+) money, so it's just cloud talk, I guess.

(05-17-2024, 04:16 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: What makes the team better this year...having or not having Tee on the roster?

I don't think it's 'dumb' to get at least one more year out of a talented WR that makes your team stronger because he's experienced in the system and has established chemistry with the QB. If the goal is to make a legit SB run this year, then having Tee out there is the smartest move, IMO.

It depends on what the deal is; Would you rather have a late first or early 2nd and 3rd rd  comp pick or early 4th Rd pick along with DJ Reader or Tee for just one season? 

Also it's a hell of a gamble to put all the hope into this one season. 

(05-17-2024, 06:36 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Once we again we don't know what was offered for Tee in a trade if anything, only rumors. I was all for trading Tee during the 
Draft, but no point now unless a team loses a WR and wants to give us quite a bit for him. Even then, might be better to just 
keep Tee here and make a run at a SB with him on the team.


Guess I understand what you mean than CJD. I don't think we are in a bad place with Tee on the team and needing to have a big 
year to get paid big next year by another team. It only hurts his stock if he sucks it up this year with us after not having a good year
last year. Also could hurt if we pay him what he wants in an extension and we cannot afford to keep some players here longer who
still have something in them.


Agree Holic as usual. It is best to just keep Tee on the Tag this year and make a run at a Super Bowl.

I was for trading him during the Draft but it didn't happen and we don't know the particulars of why.

Just have to hope Tee stays healthy and has his best year before moving on.

It's been reported that the Bengals have had  zero interest in trading Tee!

(05-17-2024, 07:03 PM)J24 Wrote: It depends on what the deal is; Would you rather have a late first or early 2nd and 3rd rd  comp pick or early 4th Rd pick along with DJ Reader or Tee for just one season? 

Also it's a hell of a gamble to put all the hope into this one season. 

Many teams have gambled and put all-in on a season to win a Superbowl and won. However, I don't see Tee Higgins being that "gamble" that puts them over the top, keeping him around only maintains the status-quo. If the team makes a move right around the trade deadline, that will be the move that puts the team "over the top", that is if they are in serious contention at that point.

(05-17-2024, 05:11 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: At least he's taking good care of himself, for himself. Did he show to the voluntary team workouts?

He's not under contract.

(05-17-2024, 07:22 PM)jason Wrote: He's not under contract.

He's got a 21.8M offer waiting for him to sign...

(05-17-2024, 07:20 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Many teams have gambled and put all-in on a season to win a Superbowl and won. However, I don't see Tee Higgins being that "gamble" that puts them over the top, keeping him around only maintains the status-quo. If the team makes a move right around the trade deadline, that will be the move that puts the team "over the top", that is if they are in serious contention at that point.

Yes teams have gone all in but usually they are teams with older cores. This team isn't old in any terms.  So why are the putting all their eggs into this basket?

Even if I were to believe the all in narrative then tell me why this team isn't spending up to the cap and why didn't they restructure any contracts in the free agency  period  to create  more cap space?

I could respect the all in theory, if they were actually going all in. However, they have used very little resources (outside of tagging Tee)to indicate the all in strategy.

(05-17-2024, 08:23 PM)J24 Wrote: Yes teams have gone all in but usually they are teams with older cores. This team isn't old in any terms.  So why are the putting all their eggs into this basket?

Even if I were to believe the all in narrative then tell me why this team isn't spending up to the cap and why didn't they restructure any contracts in the free agency  period  to create  more cap space?

I could respect the all in theory, if they were actually going all in. However, they have used very little resources (outside of tagging Tee)to indicate the all in strategy.

Exactly, if come trade deadline time, we see them ask Joe Burrow to reconfigure to allow the addition of an over the top defender, then I will believe that he Bengals are "all in" on winning the SB.

(05-17-2024, 06:36 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Once we again we don't know what was offered for Tee in a trade if anything, only rumors. I was all for trading Tee during the 
Draft, but no point now unless a team loses a WR and wants to give us quite a bit for him. Even then, might be better to just 
keep Tee here and make a run at a SB with him on the team.


Guess I understand what you mean than CJD. I don't think we are in a bad place with Tee on the team and needing to have a big 
year to get paid big next year by another team. It only hurts his stock if he sucks it up this year with us after not having a good year
last year. Also could hurt if we pay him what he wants in an extension and we cannot afford to keep some players here longer who
still have something in them.


Agree Holic as usual. It is best to just keep Tee on the Tag this year and make a run at a Super Bowl.

I was for trading him during the Draft but it didn't happen and we don't know the particulars of why.

Just have to hope Tee stays healthy and has his best year before moving on.

It would bother me less if I understood what they were doing. You mention that they are making a run at the Super Bowl this year, so keeping him is in the team's best interest, but if they were seriously treating this season like Super Bowl or bust season, why do we still have 23 million dollars in cap space? Why didn't we spend that money to make this year a Super Bowl or Bust year? Their actions are inconsistent.

Not to mention, the Bengals don't have any major, big ticket free agents coming due in 2025 other than Tee Higgins because of how bad the 2021 draft class was outside of Chase and McPherson.

Who are the players we risk losing if we signed Higgins to a 3 year deal today?

The biggest names that are free agents in 2025 are:
BJ Hill, who is turning 30 in 2025 and they've already effectively replaced with Jenkins
Mike Hilton, who is turning 31 in 2025 and they've already effectively replaced with Dax
Trent Brown, who is turning 32 in 2025 and they've already effectively replaced with Mims 
Gesicki, who is turning 30 in 2025 and they've already effectively replaced with All and McLaughlin
And Ted Karras, who is turning 32 in 2025. He does not have an official replacement yet, but I think our 7th round pick Lee is going to get a good hard look (many consider him the steal of our draft class, as he was projected early day 3 by some), and maybe they give Karras a 1 or 2 year extension at a reasonable price.

They obviously will want to re-sign McPherson as well, but that's not going to be a huge cap hit regardless. 
And they will want to re-sign Chase eventually, but it sounds like he is going to wait until Jefferson and Lamb get extensions at the very least.

2026 has Hendrickson, Rankins, Hubbard, Cappa, Chase, Stone, Pratt, and Moss due up, but that's 2 years away. That's 2 cap increases, 2 free agent classes and 2 draft classes away, so I don't see why we'd need to handicap the 2024 Bengals by planning for the 2026 free agent class.

I just don't understand why we're saving so much money if "we can't afford" to extend basically anyone haha.

(05-17-2024, 10:48 PM)CJD Wrote: It would bother me less if I understood what they were doing. You mention that they are making a run at the Super Bowl this year, so keeping him is in the team's best interest, but if they were seriously treating this season like Super Bowl or bust season, why do we still have 23 million dollars in cap space? Why didn't we spend that money to make this year a Super Bowl or Bust year? Their actions are inconsistent.

Not to mention, the Bengals don't have any major, big ticket free agents coming due in 2025 other than Tee Higgins because of how bad the 2021 draft class was outside of Chase and McPherson.

Who are the players we risk losing if we signed Higgins to a 3 year deal today?

The biggest names that are free agents in 2025 are:
BJ Hill, who is turning 30 in 2025 and they've already effectively replaced with Jenkins
Mike Hilton, who is turning 31 in 2025 and they've already effectively replaced with Dax
Trent Brown, who is turning 32 in 2025 and they've already effectively replaced with Mims 
Gesicki, who is turning 30 in 2025 and they've already effectively replaced with All and McLaughlin
And Ted Karras, who is turning 32 in 2025. He does not have an official replacement yet, but I think our 7th round pick Lee is going to get a good hard look (many consider him the steal of our draft class, as he was projected early day 3 by some), and maybe they give Karras a 1 or 2 year extension at a reasonable price.

They obviously will want to re-sign McPherson as well, but that's not going to be a huge cap hit regardless. 
And they will want to re-sign Chase eventually, but it sounds like he is going to wait until Jefferson and Lamb get extensions at the very least.

2026 has Hendrickson, Rankins, Hubbard, Cappa, Chase, Stone, Pratt, and Moss due up, but that's 2 years away. That's 2 cap increases, 2 free agent classes and 2 draft classes away, so I don't see why we'd need to handicap the 2024 Bengals by planning for the 2026 free agent class.

I just don't understand why we're saving so much money if "we can't afford" to extend basically anyone haha.

True

(05-17-2024, 04:08 PM)CJD Wrote: To be clear, (almost) any player can be replaced. The Bengals have shown the ability to replace players fairly well, especially at WR, where we have had at least 1 tier 1 receiver every season for the last 25 years.

I'm looking at it from an asset management stand point.

You have Jessie Bates. A tier 1 safety who wants to stay in Cincinnati, and you fail to sign him because of the 2nd year guarantee when everyone in the universe knows that you will not cut them after 1 year, even if it's the worst season in the NFL. Just give him the money.

You have Tee Higgins. A tier 1 (or tier 2, whatever) wide receiver who has shown he can be a #1 receiver (some of his best games are when Chase was injured), and who can make circus catches regularly. You have him on a cheap deal in the 2023 off season where everyone was talking about trading for him.

You don't trade him because "he's too valuable."

Now, it's one year later, and you don't even want to offer him 20M AAV?

If he is so valuable, lock him up or trade him for the first round pick you plan to use to replace him.

We let Bates go and got basically nothing for him. 

If we continue down this embarrassing path, we're going to lose Higgins in 2025 and get nothing for him either.

Either lock up your assets or trade them when their value is at its highest.

The Bengals are sitting on the fence between these two options in the absolute worst way possible.

And they're embarrassing themselves in the process, with two players requesting trades and leaks coming that they are cheaping out on Higgins without any response from the front office.

This is a Super Bowl caliber QB and a super bowl caliber roster at the moment.

I want a Super Bowl caliber front office. One that knows how to manage its assets.

By this rationale, no good player should ever hit UFA.  Their teams should either extend them of just trade them in a their contract year.

Now how commonly are good/star players traded again? How often do they hit UFA?

It's not Madden.

Always look at guaranteed payouts versus operating income - it is FAR more informative than even the cap as it tells you what they can actually afford to do.

(05-18-2024, 12:49 PM)Whatever Wrote: By this rationale, no good player should ever hit UFA.  Their teams should either extend them of just trade them in a their contract year.

Now how commonly are good/star players traded again? How often do they hit UFA?

It's not Madden.

Unironically, tier 1 players (those often considered worthy of a franchise tag) typically don't hit free agency. Or, if they do, their team concedes to their demands and pays them to stay. 

Top free agents of 2024 per PFF:
Chris Jones - Resigned
Kirk Cousins - Left his team
Josh Allen - Franchised and extended
Tee Higgins - Franchised, but not extended
Brian Burns - Franchised and traded
Justin Madubuike - Resigned
Christian Wilkins - Bizarrely not franchise tagged, and then left his team
Antoine Windfield - Franchised and extended
Jaylon Johnson - Resigned
L'Jarius Sneed - Franchised and traded
Michael Pittman Jr - Franchised and resigned
Danielle Hunter - left his team
Mike Evans - Resigned
Tyron Smith - Left his team
Kendall Fuller - Left his team
Leonard Williams - Resigned (after previously being traded)

Notably, the players among the top free agent targets that left their team in free agency were on the older side and their teams intended to move on from them (Cousins, Hunter, Smith, Fuller). Wilkins is the big outlier and I remember people considering it very strange that Miami did not franchise tag him. I think the reason was the team was unable to absorb the cap hit of a 1 year guaranteed contract and they just hoped Wilkins would stay on through free agency. Obviously, that gamble did not work.

In other words, the majority of the young, "cream of the crop" free agents this year either resigned with their teams or were franchised and traded.

After the first tier of free agents, you obviously have the next tier of free agents that did not warrant the franchise tag and trade approach like Bryce Huff, Patrick Queen, DJ Reader, etc, along with some players whose market was not what they expected and signed 1 year deals to test free agency again next year like Marquise Brown.

That's where a lot of team swapping occurs. But the top of the list is where you see team swaps less frequently.

There were a few more free agents who left their team for nothing in 2023:
Lamar Jackson - Resigned
Geno Smith - Resigned
Javon Hargrave - Left his team
Jessie Bates - Left his team
Jamel Dean - Resigned
Lavonte David - Resigned
Jakobi Meyers - Left his team
Orlando Brown Jr - Left his team
Daron Payne - Franchised and resigned
Derek Carr - Left his team
Mike McGlinchey - Left his team

The notable young players that left their teams were Jessie Bates and Orlando Brown Jr. Both contentious former franchise taggees. We benefitted from one, lost out due to the other. (Side note: Jakobi Meyers in the top 7 and Mike McGlinchey in the top 11 of that free agency class really tells you how weak some free agency classes can be due to teams retaining their stars).

And then 2022 was a very old free agent class, headed up by:
30 year old Terron Armstead - left his team 
33 year old Von Miller - left his team
32 year old Chandler Jones - left his team
26 year old JC Jackson  - left his team (an outlier who turned out to be a product of the New England system) 
26 year old Marcus Williams left his team (similar situation to Bates, Higgins, and Brown. Franchise tagged, contentiously not re-signed, hit free agency the following year)
31 year old Ryan Jensen - resigned
31 year old Bobby Wagner - left his team
29 year old Jadaveon Clowney - left his team and has been on 5 teams in the last 6 years
31 year old Stephon Gilmore - left his team
25 year old Carlton Davis - resigned
28 year old Allen Robinson - former team was not interested in resigning him, and the last two years are an indication of why
29 year old Randy Gregory - Very strange free agency where he originally resigned with his original team before he panicked about some language in the contract regarding fines and suspensions, and he bolted for the Broncos, where he played like shit for 2 years, and then was traded.

What I'm getting at is, yes, it is very hard for elite, young players to reach free agency without being traded or extended. There are exceptions, but in the last 2 years, 2 of ~5 exceptions (Higgins, Bates, Wilkins, Brown, with McGlinchey on the edge of what I'd consider a tier 1 free agent) have been at the expense of the Bengals.

And, as the 2022 free agent class indicated, there are often older (29+) players at the top of the list, with only a few young guys that make it there after contentious disputes with their former team like Marcus Williams.

So, to answer your questions:

Quote:Now how commonly are good/star players traded again? 

More often then you seem to be implying

Quote:How often do they hit UFA?

Not as often as you seem to be implying.

Maybe it is Madden.