(06-11-2015, 10:40 AM)Nately120 Wrote: It's not an excuse...Palmer throws too many INTs.  I was pointing out that Fred (a guy I tend to like a lot) did the very lawyerly thing of presenting the statistics in a manner that made it seem like there was far more difference between the two than there really is.

What is interesting is that they have almost identical INT % as I think it's quite interesting that if/when Dalton throws as many passes as Palmer the stats would place him at throwing 1 less INT (actually, 1.44 less if we consistently extend data to the tenth's column).  Also interesting is that they both had 20 INT seasons and they had the EXACT number of attempts that season (both their highest number of attempts in their careers).

I’m not trying to make excuses, in fact the more I look at the stats the more I see Marvin Lewis and/or Mike Brown being somewhat blessed with two overall decent QBs and not making the most of the stability.  And I'm not sure how many people give Palmer a pass for his INT issues, but I'm not one of them.  Again, I just think it is amusing that we are comparing a metric where Dalton and Palmer are inconceivably similar.  It doesn't get much closer than the .03% separation in INT percentage and the fact that they both had career high season attempts of EXACTLY 586 and both tossed EXACTLY 20 INTs is implausible and humorous.

Where am I saying one is "better" than the other?

EDIT:  The closest thing I say to indicate Palmer is better than Dalton is that Palmer was (ever so briefly) performing in the top echelons of NFL QBs.  The question is can Dalton return to, or exceed his 2013 performance and what can Palmer do in Arizona before the curtain falls.

The excuse I was talking about was when you mentioned Palmer playing against Polamalu and Ed Reed. I'm aware that there is a very minute difference in Palmer and Dalton's INT%. I totally agree that it's interesting how similar they are in that regard. I've always wondered if Zampese is part of the problem.

(06-11-2015, 11:26 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I know, but the OP title is:
List of QBs with most passing yards in first four seasons.

So I wanted to stay on topic and show the OP and everyone else that he's not as good as everyone seems to believe. Can he be good? Yes, the ability appears to be there, but we've only seen it once out of 4 years so far. Now, for last year, I'll give him a bit of a pass, hard to put up numbers when your top targets are down. So as long as everyone is healthy this year, then I expect that he better have another top 10 year. If not, then we need to think about a replacement.

Honestly, I just disagree with yardage being used to judge QB's. So I disagree with the premise of the OP as well. 

I don't think we need to search for a replacement if Dalton isn't a top 10 QB, but he definitely needs to improve on last year.

(06-11-2015, 03:18 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The excuse I was talking about was when you mentioned Palmer playing against Polamalu and Ed Reed. I'm aware that there is a very minute difference in Palmer and Dalton's INT%. I totally agree that it's interesting how similar they are in that regard. I've always wondered if Zampese is part of the problem.

True, but I did say it was an admitted excuse (though I think it does hold some water).  I think another point of comparison between Palmer and Dalton involves their performance in Hue's offensive system.  Then again, it seems to have been altered a bit since 2011.

(06-08-2015, 11:08 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: LOL...you are too easy. FYI here is some data , stats, facts or whatever it is you want to try and debunk. This is going to really make some of you very mad but here is the link to see for yourself ([url= http://www.footballperspective.com/most-pick-sixes-thrown-in-nfl-history/]here[/url]). 

Dalton throws a higher % of INT's than Carson Palmer BY 1.3%. The Pick six you are referring to is separated by O.O1%. LOL. 


Carson Palmer  - 14.1% Int's  & .46% Pick-Six ratio
Andy Dalton  - 15.4% Int's & .45% Pick-Six ratio

How many did Palmer throw in just 2010? 

And how many years had he been in the league at that point?

You are too easy...

Andy isn't terrible but he's not great and everyone makes excuses for him when he chokes. Bad things happen to all teams the needs to learn how to overcome adversity bc I can't deal with this same topic next season. Same goes for Marvin Lewis. And as far as passing yards go that stat doesn't mean much in my opinion.

(06-11-2015, 03:41 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: How many did Palmer throw in just 2010? 

And how many years had he been in the league at that point?

You are too easy...

Carson threw the ball 586 times in 2010
Dalton threw the ball 586 times in 2013

Both were career highs for attempts and both threw exactly 20 INTs and lost exactly 3 fumbles.  It is statistically amazing these two guys are so similar and yet were are struggling to establish some sort of difference between their INT-related woes.

(06-11-2015, 03:45 PM)TSwigZ Wrote: Andy isn't terrible but he's not great and everyone makes excuses for him when he chokes. Bad things happen to all teams the needs to learn how to overcome adversity bc I can't deal with this same topic next season. Same goes for Marvin Lewis. And as far as passing yards go that stat doesn't mean much in my opinion.

Yards aren't the end-all-be-all stat when it comes to determining who is best, but if you look at the list of total yards leaders per year you won't see many clunker QB's on it.  In fact, the only average QB to top the league in yards in the past 15 or so years is Matt Schaub.

(06-11-2015, 04:04 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Yards aren't the end-all-be-all stat when it comes to determining who is best, but if you look at the list of total yards leaders per year you won't see many clunker QB's on it.  In fact, the only average QB to top the league in yards in the past 15 or so years is Matt Schaub.

You won't see many clunkers leading the league, but average QB's are in the top 10 in yardage fairly regularly.

Stafford
Tannehill
Dalton
Palmer
Freeman
Newton
Schaub 
Orton

Have all been top 10 in yardage over the last 5 years. 

(06-11-2015, 05:27 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You won't see many clunkers leading the league, but average QB's are in the top 10 in yardage fairly regularly.

Stafford
Tannehill
Dalton
Palmer
Freeman
Newton
Schaub 
Orton

Have all been top 10 in yardage over the last 5 years. 

In all fairness, that's a decent enough list minus Freeman.  Even Orton and Schaub provide enough QB stability and resume to allow their teams to fill other holes and stop playing QB musical chairs.  I will say that there is probably a lot of garbage-time yardage on that list, but again, the top yardage earners tend to be the Rodgers/P. Manning/Pig Ben/Rivers types and these guys logically make up the middle tier mostly.

(06-11-2015, 04:02 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Carson threw the ball 586 times in 2010
Dalton threw the ball 586 times in 2013

Both were career highs for attempts and both threw exactly 20 INTs and lost exactly 3 fumbles.  It is statistically amazing these two guys are so similar and yet were are struggling to establish some sort of difference between their INT-related woes.

Are you going to answer the original question?  Or just keep dancing around it?

(06-11-2015, 05:33 PM)Nately120 Wrote: In all fairness, that's a decent enough list minus Freeman.  Even Orton and Schaub provide enough QB stability and resume to allow their teams to fill other holes and stop playing QB musical chairs.  I will say that there is probably a lot of garbage-time yardage on that list, but again, the top yardage earners tend to be the Rodgers/P. Manning/Pig Ben/Rivers types and these guys logically make up the middle tier mostly.

Right. Those guys are all decent, but I don't think anyone would've viewed them as top 10 QB's despite being top 10 in yardage.

That's why I feel passer rating is a more accurate gauge of QB's.

(06-11-2015, 03:45 PM)TSwigZ Wrote: Andy isn't terrible but he's not great and everyone makes excuses for him when he chokes.

This is not true.  I don't know of anyone that made excuses for him after the loss to the Chargers in 2013.

And I have heard plenty of his critics making "excuses" for when he does well like "He has the best receiving corps in the league".

(06-11-2015, 12:25 AM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: .he just does not have the arm to throw the long out over 25 yards...period. 

You are just wrong.  Period.  

He has completed many deep passes well over 25 yards.

(06-10-2015, 12:44 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Here's what I want to know.

Why does every Andy argument come down to comparisons to Carson Palmer and other previous Bengals? That doesn't happen with any other player on this team.

When we discuss Andy, it's "Andy is good because franchise records and team wins!"

When we discuss any other player, it's "PlayerX sucks because he isn't a perennial All-Pro compared to the other players around the league!" from those same people.

I don't think I'll ever understand it.

The reason you do not understand it is because that is not what happens.

You are really good at making up strawmen to knock down, but that doesn't impress me very much.

(06-05-2015, 11:33 AM)PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop Wrote: I think the explanation for Dalton's pretty stats is actually pretty straightforward.

One thing you have to credit Dalton for was coming into the league very pro-ready. This would make sense, since Gruden and Lewis knew they didn't have time to draft a project QB who might not be able to start right away (I.E. Mallet or Kaepernick).

But that has it's pros and cons. Rookie Dalton is what Dalton is/was/is going to be, considering he has hardly improved since 2011. Not to say Dalton is bad, but expecting him to have a mid-career renaissance (ala Drew Brees) is nothing more than a pipe dream.

I have to disagree.  I think his biggest problem he needs to overcome the mental/nerves/psychological issue that is causing him to stumble in big moments.  I do think he has the skill set to be a solid QB.  I wonder if he should talk to a psychologist about the nerves/stress factor.

(06-12-2015, 06:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is not true.  I don't know of anyone that made excuses for him after the loss to the Chargers in 2013.

And I have heard plenty of his critics making "excuses" for when he does well like "He has the best receiving corps in the league".

He played an excellent first half against San Diego and would have been near-perfect if not for Gio's fumble near the goalline.  The fumble changed the whole complexion of the game.  He got blitzed by the Chargers in the 2nd half and did not play as well, although he was not helped by AJ's drop and throwing the ball 59 times.

(06-04-2015, 10:22 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: They were 4-12 when he took over.  As the QB, he has to get some credit for the turn around.  With Gresham gone, Dalton and Green are basically the oldest skill players on the offense.  It's not like he inherited a good team.

I think this is the key thing.  Dalton was thrown to the wolves after the lockout and got the job done.  He helped us get to the playoffs each of his first four years with good and bad defenses, good and bad receivers/TE's, good and bad running games.  If we let this play out over another four years with a maturing QB, I think we'll see division titles, playoff wins and a Super Bowl.  This is not pie in the sky thinking. Remember, Kenny Anderson had to wait for his 10th full NFL season to win a playoff game.

(06-13-2015, 01:26 AM)BonnieBengal Wrote: I have to disagree.  I think his biggest problem he needs to overcome the mental/nerves/psychological issue that is causing him to stumble in big moments.  I do think he has the skill set to be a solid QB.  I wonder if he should talk to a psychologist about the nerves/stress factor.

I agree that he seems to get stressed early and makes some high throws until he settles in.  I wish Mike Brown would bring in a support system of former Bengals like Sam Wyche and Ken Anderson to work with him on the mental side of the game and help raise his confidence.

(06-13-2015, 02:16 AM)DaltontoKroftSBchamps Wrote: He played an excellent first half against San Diego and would have been near-perfect if not for Gio's fumble near the goalline.  The fumble changed the whole complexion of the game.  He got blitzed by the Chargers in the 2nd half and did not play as well, although he was not helped by AJ's drop and throwing the ball 59 times.

Exactly.  I think the wind played a factor too on some of those throws, which would affect any QB.  Plus, you could tell the sun was in his eyes too.  And we all know San Diego got  a little lucky.  Not to mention, he was just a little off, which happens to the best of them.

So i mean, really, if not for Gio's fumble, San Diego blitzing, AJ's drop, having to throw the ball 59 times, the wind, the sun in his eyes, San Diego getting lucky, and Andy just being a little off, then I think we win that game and he's team MVP. 

Yeah, we lost 27-10 and yeah, we didn't score a single point in the 2nd half.  Yeah, Andy turned over 4 times, but OJ Simpson killed a person and Jake Locker isn't even in the league any more.  So I think it's nothing to worry about.  Kid played a pretty solid game and showed a ton of heart, something Carson Palmer never did. 

(06-13-2015, 02:16 AM)DaltontoKroftSBchamps Wrote: He played an excellent first half against San Diego and would have been near-perfect if not for Gio's fumble near the goalline.  The fumble changed the whole complexion of the game.  He got blitzed by the Chargers in the 2nd half and did not play as well, although he was not helped by AJ's drop and throwing the ball 59 times.

Like I have said many times, when he is kept clean he picks teams apart.  Brady is the same way.  Brady folds when pressured, especially in his face.  Why does he get a pass on that and Dalton sucks because of it?  I don't think asking your offensive line for decent protection is asking too much. 

(06-11-2015, 04:02 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Carson threw the ball 586 times in 2010
Dalton threw the ball 586 times in 2013

Both were career highs for attempts and both threw exactly 20 INTs and lost exactly 3 fumbles.  It is statistically amazing these two guys are so similar and yet were are struggling to establish some sort of difference between their INT-related woes.

And since you decided not to address my original question of "How many Pick 6s did Palmer throw in 2010"?, I will answer it for you: 

5 Pick sixes in a single season.  And not his rookie season, but his eighth season in the league and his seventh season starting.