(08-28-2024, 04:21 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Rankins is defitniely a pass rushing DT, his run stop game has been shaky the last few seasons.

I agree that Jenkins showed promise.

I expect very, very little from Jackson this entire season.

I view Jackson in the Tupou role currently.
He's going to be a backup run-stuffing 2-down NT until he grows into more of a well-rounded, full-time NT.
And that's fine for a late-round rookie.

Jenkins would be the one who I would peg as the potential best option to start at NT when thinking about traditional NT, as I too think Rankins is more like a Hill/Ogunjobi kinda dude.

(08-28-2024, 04:33 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I view Jackson in the Tupou role currently.
He's going to be a backup run-stuffing 2-down NT until he grows into more of a well-rounded, full-time NT.
And that's fine for a late-round rookie.

Jenkins would be the one who I would peg as the potential best option to start at NT when thinking about traditional NT, as I too think Rankins is more like a Hill/Ogunjobi kinda dude.

Expecting Jackson to be a solid run-stuffer this season may be expecting too much. DL is very tough for rookies, especially nonathletic ones.  I think he was drafted extremely high, but there is likely a development plan for him.  I hope he proves me wrong but expectations may be a tad high for this guy early on in his career.

(08-28-2024, 04:46 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Expecting Jackson to be a solid run-stuffer this season may be expecting too much. DL is very tough for rookies, especially nonathletic ones.  I think he was drafted extremely high, but there is likely a development plan for him.  I hope he proves me wrong but expectations may be a tad high for this guy early on in his career.

Agreed, I think that a few of us predicted that he would be on a 2 year trajectory to being a full time player. If they can get him into situational rotation some this year, it could really help build his confidence.

(08-28-2024, 03:18 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Adding Trent Brown and Mims along with the rest of the OL gaining chemistry could get our running game on track yah never know.

Also communication and tackling were our biggest problems in stopping the run on Defense, bringing back Vonn Bell should help and
Rankins was a very good run stopper when he was with the Jets and was asked to stop the run. Sam Hubbard and Logan Wilson were
hurt last season, surely could help with them healthy again.


Great point. As long as we can get back to somewhere that close at stopping the run on Defense we should be okay. If the Offense 
can score a lot of points it could make opposing Offenses go away from trying to run the ball as well.

Our IOL already have played for 2 years/33 starts together. If you're banking on "gaining chemistry" in the third year... at that point, I feel like that's more a blind hope for a long shot dice roll than a plan. I agree with Au and Truck that I don't think we NEED to be a great rushing team so long as we can keep Burrow protected, it would just be nice to be able to run efficiently if we need/want to. I don't really mind if we're the 26-28th or so rushing team in the league so long as we have that YPC in the 14th-16th range.

- - - - -

We'll see if Vonn Bell plays. Currently he's slated to be a backup and the only difference in the starting DBs is Geno Stone (who is new to the system) replacing Dax Hill.

At some point you have to give real thought to if it's just Lou/the system. I will draw attention again to the fact that The Bengals.... 
-Have had a below-average scoring defense in 4 of the 5 years he's been here.
-Have had a simultaneously in both yards and YPC 25th or worse rushing defense in 3 of the 5 years he's been here.
-Have had a below-average passing defense in 5 of the 5 years he's been here.
-Have had a below-average sacking defense in 4 of the 5 years he's been here.
-Have had a below-average 3rd down defense in 5 of the 5 years he's been here.

I feel like a large amount of his hype was because his defense managed to shut down Mahomes and the Chiefs twice in the second half of games in 2021... but folks casually forget they only needed those drastic adjustments because they allowed 28 and 21 points in the first half of those games.

(08-28-2024, 04:46 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Expecting Jackson to be a solid run-stuffer this season may be expecting too much. DL is very tough for rookies, especially nonathletic ones.  I think he was drafted extremely high, but there is likely a development plan for him.  I hope he proves me wrong but expectations may be a tad high for this guy early on in his career.

I thought he was a pretty solid run defender coming out of Texas A&M.
He was actually one of my favorite NT prospects in this draft.

(08-28-2024, 04:49 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Our IOL already have played for 2 years/33 starts together. If you're banking on "gaining chemistry" in the third year... at that point, I feel like that's more a blind hope for a long shot dice roll than a plan. I agree with Au and Truck that I don't think we NEED to be a great rushing team so long as we can keep Burrow protected, it would just be nice to be able to run efficiently if we need/want to. I don't really mind if we're the 26-28th or so rushing team in the league so long as we have that YPC in the 14th-16th range.

- - - - -

We'll see if Vonn Bell plays. Currently he's slated to be a backup and the only difference in the starting DBs is Geno Stone (who is new to the system) replacing Dax Hill.

At some point you have to give real thought to if it's just Lou/the system. I will draw attention again to the fact that The Bengals.... 
-Have had a below-average scoring defense in 4 of the 5 years he's been here.
-Have had a simultaneously in both yards and YPC 25th or worse rushing defense in 3 of the 5 years he's been here.
-Have had a below-average passing defense in 5 of the 5 years he's been here.
-Have had a below-average sacking defense in 4 of the 5 years he's been here.
-Have had a below-average 3rd down defense in 5 of the 5 years he's been here.

I feel like a large amount of his hype was because his defense managed to shut down Mahomes and the Chiefs twice in the second half of games in 2021... but folks casually forget they only needed those drastic adjustments because they allowed 28 and 21 points in the first half of those games.

I haven't seen or heard Bell is slated to be a back up?

(08-28-2024, 04:55 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I haven't seen or heard Bell is slated to be a back up?

Are they going to bench Battle? Because that would be.... a choice.

(08-28-2024, 04:56 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Are they going to bench Battle? Because that would be.... a choice.

I believe that is the plan, for a bit. Vonn looked a little slower his last season here. Battle was a part of the chaos at safety last season. Bell grooming Battle for a little while to call the alignment correctly, is a good thing.

(08-28-2024, 05:02 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I believe that is the plan, for a bit. Vonn looked a little slower his last season here. Battle was a part of the chaos at safety last season. Bell grooming Battle for a little while to call the alignment correctly, is a good thing.

Just can't help but think that if multiple guys need 2 years to learn a system, it's not a good system.

All good points here guys. A top 10 rush team probably isn't realistic and isn't required anyway. Top 15-20? Still excellent and would be tough yes, being more efficient when they DO run is key as you guys point out. To me they must show a respectable run game just to keep the D from stampeding JB and avoiding another possible injury. Seems it would only add to the pass game and make them more than a 1 dimensional offense.

(08-28-2024, 04:49 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Our IOL already have played for 2 years/33 starts together. If you're banking on "gaining chemistry" in the third year... at that point, I feel like that's more a blind hope for a long shot dice roll than a plan. I agree with Au and Truck that I don't think we NEED to be a great rushing team so long as we can keep Burrow protected, it would just be nice to be able to run efficiently if we need/want to. I don't really mind if we're the 26-28th or so rushing team in the league so long as we have that YPC in the 14th-16th range.

- - - - -

We'll see if Vonn Bell plays. Currently he's slated to be a backup and the only difference in the starting DBs is Geno Stone (who is new to the system) replacing Dax Hill.

At some point you have to give real thought to if it's just Lou/the system. I will draw attention again to the fact that The Bengals.... 
-Have had a below-average scoring defense in 4 of the 5 years he's been here.
-Have had a simultaneously in both yards and YPC 25th or worse rushing defense in 3 of the 5 years he's been here.
-Have had a below-average passing defense in 5 of the 5 years he's been here.
-Have had a below-average sacking defense in 4 of the 5 years he's been here.
-Have had a below-average 3rd down defense in 5 of the 5 years he's been here.

I feel like a large amount of his hype was because his defense managed to shut down Mahomes and the Chiefs twice in the second half of games in 2021... but folks casually forget they only needed those drastic adjustments because they allowed 28 and 21 points in the first half of those games.

Last year the OL was really sabotaged by the Burrow calf strain where they were in Shotgun 100% of the time early. Hard for any OL to be 
successful in such a predictable situation and the running game suffered as well because of this.

Bell isn't the backup, he is the starting SS next to Geno Stone who is at FS with Battle rotating in at times. This will help with communication
and the young Secondary players will be 1 year older and more experienced. With Bell back and the communication much better on the back 
end this should help everyone from the DL to the LB's as Logan Wilson has said. Losing DJ Reader hurts, but we were that terrible stopping
the run with him on the team.

(08-28-2024, 04:55 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I haven't seen or heard Bell is slated to be a back up?

Me neither, Lou has talked about how much better the communication is with Vonn Bell back starting with Geno Stone.

(08-28-2024, 04:56 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Are they going to bench Battle? Because that would be.... a choice.

They have, even if I don't like benching a player that played well he is behind Vonn right now as we saw in Preseason.

(08-28-2024, 05:46 PM)RegularGuy22 Wrote: All good points here guys. A top 10 rush team probably isn't realistic and isn't required anyway. Top 15-20? Still excellent and would be tough yes, being more efficient when they DO run is key as you guys point out. To me they must show a respectable run game just to keep the D from stampeding JB and avoiding another possible injury. Seems it would only add to the pass game and make them more than a 1 dimensional offense.

Yes, being much more efficient is all we can ask of the running game in the pass first Offense. But it should be much less predictable 
this season with a healthy Burrow and us not always being in the Shotgun.

(08-28-2024, 02:53 PM)RegularGuy22 Wrote: and it's pretty obvious to most is.. establish a solid run game so Burrow and receivers can be effective. Doesn't have to be #1 in the league but a top 10 would be fine. And, second is be able to STOP the opposing run game so the D secondary isn't having to make most of the stops. If they can accomplish those two things it greatly increases their shot at winning the division and advancing.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

The run game has to be effective when you need it to be effective. It has to be better on short yardage and the goal line.It hasn’t. But yes if Chase Brown could break some long runs and Moss some 11 -15 yard runs on first down it would allow the play action to be a damn play action. It’s not really. Teams think pass all the time and the DE’s paying no attention to the fakes in the run game hurts protecting or giving Joe more time. If this offense could ever give Joe decent time we’d win plenty of SB’s.

(08-28-2024, 06:20 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: The run game has to be effective when you need it to be effective. It has to be better on short yardage and the goal line.It hasn’t. But yes if Chase Brown could break some long runs and Moss some 11 -15 yard runs on first down it would allow the play action to be a damn play action. It’s not really. Teams think pass all the time and the DE’s paying no attention to the fakes in the run game hurts protecting or giving Joe more time. If this offense could ever give Joe decent time we’d win plenty of SB’s.

Yes, I am aware of all this. If we the fans can see it imagine what other Pro scouts, coaches and players can see. And they have a lot more tech and sources than we do. It's why Burrow, Chase and Higgins were successful that first year or so before other teams had a little time to sit and watch and figure out what we did. We aren't a surprise anymore. Makes having a decent run game all the more important.

(08-28-2024, 06:45 PM)RegularGuy22 Wrote: Yes, I am aware of all this. If we the fans can see it imagine what other Pro scouts, coaches and players can see. And they have a lot more tech and sources than we do. It's why Burrow, Chase and Higgins were successful that first year or so before other teams had a little time to sit and watch and figure out what we did. We aren't a surprise anymore. Makes having a decent run game all the more important.

I’ll try again. It doesn’t have to be top 10. It has to be successful when you need to rely on it. It’s not top 10 in rushing yards. It’s top 10 in yards per attempt. But yes a better running attack would help the offense

(08-28-2024, 04:51 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I thought he was a pretty solid run defender coming out of Texas A&M.
He was actually one of my favorite NT prospects in this draft.

He was dominant at times his Jr season at A&M and was "ok to good" his Sr season.  Many were expecting more.  The mock drafts had him ranked way higher than many other services and I'd bet many other NFL teams.

I simply wasn't impressed with him prior to the draft and the 3rd round pick seemed very early.  

Here are a couple of takes:

Greg Cosell (one ofht absolute best analysts):

"Jackson would begin his NFL career as a second or third DT (0-technique or 1-technique) in a 7-9 DL rotation, and he would need to improve significantly as a force in the run game to get meaningful snaps as a rookie at the next level."

And there are these:

Mckinnley Jackson is the first player to be drafted with a UDFA grade in our board.

He was the 401st ranked prospect on our board.

Players who grade in this range wash out of the NFL pretty quickly.

Not a lot of positives to say here. He could be a warm body at NT.

— Gridiron Grading (@GridironGrading) April 27, 2024

 


He could turn out to be a very fine player, I'm just cautioning to not get our hopes up this season.  He likely won't be making us forget about DJ Reader in the near future.

(08-28-2024, 03:04 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: You aren't wrong. Running the ball and stopping the run were our biggest problems last year besides giving up the big plays and of 
course the injuries to Burrow. This Offense would be nearly unstoppable with a decent running game to go along with our passing 
Offense. If teams have to respect the run look out.

We've had an issue stopping the run for quite a while. Hell, even in the ML error, it was our weakness.

(08-28-2024, 07:13 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I’ll try again. It doesn’t have to be top 10. It has to be successful when you need to rely on it. It’s not top 10 in rushing yards. It’s top 10 in yards per attempt. But yes a better running attack would help the offense

Sooner, you keep repeating what I already know. I even said up the page top 10 was not realistic. so, we are all in agreement on this... that a better run game would most assuredly help the Bengals offense AND Burrows health. Cool..

(08-28-2024, 07:31 PM)casear2727 Wrote: He was dominant at times his Jr season at A&M and was "ok to good" his Sr season.  Many were expecting more.  The mock drafts had him ranked way higher than many other services and I'd bet many other NFL teams.

I simply wasn't impressed with him prior to the draft and the 3rd round pick seemed very early.  

Here are a couple of takes:

Greg Cosell (one ofht absolute best analysts):

"Jackson would begin his NFL career as a second or third DT (0-technique or 1-technique) in a 7-9 DL rotation, and he would need to improve significantly as a force in the run game to get meaningful snaps as a rookie at the next level."

And there are these:

Mckinnley Jackson is the first player to be drafted with a UDFA grade in our board.

He was the 401st ranked prospect on our board.

Players who grade in this range wash out of the NFL pretty quickly.

Not a lot of positives to say here. He could be a warm body at NT.

— Gridiron Grading (@GridironGrading) April 27, 2024

 


He could turn out to be a very fine player, I'm just cautioning to not get our hopes up this season.  He likely won't be making us forget about DJ Reader in the near future.

Yep I know different people/sites had him different places.

Lance Zierlein had him Rd 6.
Bleacher Report scouting report had him as a 4th rounder.
NFL Draft Buzz had him 5th round.
Pro Football Network had him as a late Rd 3 - early 4th rounder due to the scarcity of true NT prospects in this draft class.

My feeling - Bengals liked him and wanted a true NT. They didn't feel he would make it to their pick in Rd 4 so they took him with 3rd round comp pick.
I don't see using a 3rd round comp pick to get a position of need to be a huge deal vs using their regular 4th rounder.
4th round felt right for him to me, but I was ok with pulling the trigger a bit early to not risk him getting taken before 115.

(08-28-2024, 07:48 PM)RegularGuy22 Wrote: Sooner, you keep repeating what I already know. I even said up the page top 10 was not realistic. so, we are all in agreement on this... that a better run game would most assuredly help the Bengals offense AND Burrows health. Cool..

Good

(08-28-2024, 02:53 PM)RegularGuy22 Wrote: and it's pretty obvious to most is.. establish a solid run game so Burrow and receivers can be effective. Doesn't have to be #1 in the league but a top 10 would be fine. And, second is be able to STOP the opposing run game so the D secondary isn't having to make most of the stops. If they can accomplish those two things it greatly increases their shot at winning the division and advancing.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Lol, a top 10 "would be fine" when we have had a bottom 10 rushing attack every year of the Burrow era. Top 10 wouldn't be fine, it would be a remarkable improvement.