(10-02-2024, 09:53 AM)ochocincos Wrote: We need to be talking about how lackluster Geno Stone has been.
Dude is allowing a 113.9 passer rating when targeted.
Dax Hill, who Stone replaced, allowed a 114.8 last year.
Not really any upgrade in that department.
Hill had 9 missed tackles last season. Stone has 3 missed tackles in 4 games. On pace for more missed tackles than Hill had.
Stone has just 1 PD this season. Hill had 11 last year.

I've not really seen any improvement at FS going from Hill to Stone.
But maybe I'm not watching that spot close enough to spot the differences?

I think the biggest reason for a lot of the db issues is our front not only not getting home, but not even getting close.  NFL WR's are smart enough to adjust routes based on db's and if the qb knows he'll have 4 seconds minimum to watch, they'll succeed.

Not 100% meaning to defend our db's, but I do think that's part of what's happening.  

(10-02-2024, 09:59 AM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: I think the biggest reason for a lot of the db issues is our front not only not getting home, but not even getting close.  NFL WR's are smart enough to adjust routes based on db's and if the qb knows he'll have 4 seconds minimum to watch, they'll succeed.

Not 100% meaning to defend our db's, but I do think that's part of what's happening.  

I'm sure that's part of it, but Stone doesn't look like a center fielder FS that this defense had when Bates was a Bengal.
This defense needs a guy like that, and I don't see Stone's speed and athleticism being able to do it.

(10-02-2024, 09:53 AM)ochocincos Wrote: We need to be talking about how lackluster Geno Stone has been.
Dude is allowing a 113.9 passer rating when targeted.
Dax Hill, who Stone replaced, allowed a 114.8 last year.
Not really any upgrade in that department.
Hill had 9 missed tackles last season. Stone has 3 missed tackles in 4 games. On pace for more missed tackles than Hill had.
Stone has just 1 PD this season. Hill had 11 last year.

I've not really seen any improvement at FS going from Hill to Stone.
But maybe I'm not watching that spot close enough to spot the differences?

Who was covering Kelce in that game?

(10-02-2024, 01:45 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Who was covering Kelce in that game?

If you're genuinely asking me, I don't know.
I can't remember who covered who specifically.

What I do remember are multiple plays where defenders are getting past the CB and Stone is too slow getting over to help cover, resulting in some big plays.
I remember this happening against both the Commanders and Panthers.

Stone might be able to cover the bigger, slower TEs, but he seems to struggle with fast guys downfield.

(10-02-2024, 03:10 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If you're genuinely asking me, I don't know.
I can't remember who covered who specifically.

What I do remember are multiple plays where defenders are getting past the CB and Stone is too slow getting over to help cover, resulting in some big plays.
I remember this happening against both the Commanders and Panthers.

Stone might be able to cover the bigger, slower TEs, but he seems to struggle with fast guys downfield.

Pretty sure Geno Stone was covering Kelce a good amount and pretty much shut him down along with Hilton, Logan, Pratt and ADG.

I have seen Vonn Bell get beat the most this season in coverage.

(10-02-2024, 03:43 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Pretty sure Geno Stone was covering Kelce a good amount and pretty much shut him down along with Hilton, Logan, Pratt and ADG.

I have seen Vonn Bell get beat the most this season in coverage.

Vonn Bell is not the center fielder FS though, that's supposed to be Stone.
Bell is quintessential SS, and an older one at that.

I know the price differential between Stone and Bates is giant ($7 mill APY vs $16 mill APY), but so is the coverage ability, IMO.

It's great if Stone can cover a TE, but I want him to be a ball hawking guy who can roam the entirety of the backfield and help not allow WRs to blow past coverage deep.
That's what I view as what makes a good FS.
Maybe that's more to McLaurin's and Johnson's ability though, but I know Bates would have been better covering those things compared to what I see from Stone.

EDIT - Because you said "Pretty sure Geno Stone was covering Kelce a good amount and pretty much shut him down," I looked back at 2023. In the KC game last year, Kelce only had 3 rec for 16 yards. So he was covered pretty well when Stone wasn't here as well. I don't think it's something Stone specifically was able to do compared to the previous FS.

(10-02-2024, 03:43 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Pretty sure Geno Stone was covering Kelce a good amount and pretty much shut him down along with Hilton, Logan, Pratt and ADG.

I have seen Vonn Bell get beat the most this season in coverage.

Kelce has a bad case of the drips from Swift, and is going through an emotional time since their contract is up and she's not longer going to his games. 

(10-03-2024, 08:19 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Kelce has a bad case of the drips from Swift, and is going through an emotional time since their contract is up and she's not longer going to his games. 

Kelce has a bad case of the drips? I knew something was wrong with her.

(10-02-2024, 04:13 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Vonn Bell is not the center fielder FS though, that's supposed to be Stone.
Bell is quintessential SS, and an older one at that.

I know the price differential between Stone and Bates is giant ($7 mill APY vs $16 mill APY), but so is the coverage ability, IMO.

It's great if Stone can cover a TE, but I want him to be a ball hawking guy who can roam the entirety of the backfield and help not allow WRs to blow past coverage deep.
That's what I view as what makes a good FS.
Maybe that's more to McLaurin's and Johnson's ability though, but I know Bates would have been better covering those things compared to what I see from Stone.

EDIT - Because you said "Pretty sure Geno Stone was covering Kelce a good amount and pretty much shut him down," I looked black at 2023. In the KC game last year, Kelce only had 3 rec for 16 yards. So he was covered pretty well when Stone wasn't here as well. I don't think it's something Stone specifically was able to do compared to the previous FS.

Kelce was targeted 3 times in week 2. He had 1 catch for 5 yards, and a PI call against us on another. I'd say Andy Reid and Mahomes shit him down more than Dexter Jackson... I mean Geno Stone did.

(10-02-2024, 04:13 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Vonn Bell is not the center fielder FS though, that's supposed to be Stone.
Bell is quintessential SS, and an older one at that.

I know the price differential between Stone and Bates is giant ($7 mill APY vs $16 mill APY), but so is the coverage ability, IMO.

It's great if Stone can cover a TE, but I want him to be a ball hawking guy who can roam the entirety of the backfield and help not allow WRs to blow past coverage deep.
That's what I view as what makes a good FS.
Maybe that's more to McLaurin's and Johnson's ability though, but I know Bates would have been better covering those things compared to what I see from Stone.

EDIT - Because you said "Pretty sure Geno Stone was covering Kelce a good amount and pretty much shut him down," I looked back at 2023. In the KC game last year, Kelce only had 3 rec for 16 yards. So he was covered pretty well when Stone wasn't here as well. I don't think it's something Stone specifically was able to do compared to the previous FS.

Fair enough, cannot argue with any of this Ochocincos.

(10-03-2024, 08:19 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Kelce has a bad case of the drips from Swift, and is going through an emotional time since their contract is up and she's not longer going to his games. 

New it would catch up with him eventually.

(10-03-2024, 09:13 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Kelce has a bad case of the drips? I knew something was wrong with her.

(10-03-2024, 01:30 PM)jason Wrote: Kelce was targeted 3 times in week 2. He had 1 catch for 5 yards, and a PI call against us on another. I'd say Andy Reid and Mahomes shit him down more than Dexter Jackson... I mean Geno Stone did.

Could be correct. Hoping Stone gets back to his ballhawk ways of last season with the Ravens soon though.

(10-02-2024, 09:53 AM)ochocincos Wrote: We need to be talking about how lackluster Geno Stone has been.
Dude is allowing a 113.9 passer rating when targeted.
Dax Hill, who Stone replaced, allowed a 114.8 last year.
Not really any upgrade in that department.
Hill had 9 missed tackles last season. Stone has 3 missed tackles in 4 games. On pace for more missed tackles than Hill had.
Stone has just 1 PD this season. Hill had 11 last year.

I've not really seen any improvement at FS going from Hill to Stone.
But maybe I'm not watching that spot close enough to spot the differences?

He has been a disappointment so far, one thing about Stone is he was the third safety in Baltimore behind Marcus Williams and Kyle Hamilton. Maybe that's what he is a very good Rotational player and sub Package player. Kind of like what Kevin Kaesviharn was for us in the mid 2000s.

(10-02-2024, 11:16 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I'm sure that's part of it, but Stone doesn't look like a center fielder FS that this defense had when Bates was a Bengal.
This defense needs a guy like that, and I don't see Stone's speed and athleticism being able to do it.

In Stone's defense, I don't think anybody really compares to Bates as a Center Fielder in the NFL!

(10-04-2024, 03:03 AM)J24 Wrote: He has been a disappointment so far, one thing about Stone is he was the third safety in Baltimore behind Marcus Williams and Kyle Hamilton. Maybe that's what he is a very good Rotational player and sub Package player. Kind of like what Kevin Kaesviharn was for us in the mid 2000s.
In Stone's defense, I don't think anybody really compares to Bates as a Center Fielder in the NFL!

You remember the phrase "Absence makes the heart grow fonder?" We all remember playoff Jesse, he was great. People tend to forget mid season Jesse, who was not so much.... Bates was like the Bengals Reggie Jackson.... shows up in October, except in January

(10-04-2024, 08:21 AM)Sled21 Wrote: You remember the phrase "Absence makes the heart grow fonder?" We all remember playoff Jesse, he was great. People tend to forget mid season Jesse, who was not so much.... Bates was like the Bengals Reggie Jackson.... shows up in October, except in January

That simply not true! Even, if that  Narrative  was true, is it smart for a Championship caliber team to give up its most clutch player?

(10-04-2024, 12:40 PM)J24 Wrote: That simply not true! Even, if that  Narrative  was true, is itsmart for a Championship caliber team to give up its most clutch player?

All I'm saying is it is easy for people to remember the good, but tend to forget all the board discussions about Bates' poor mid-season play, his head being in a funk, etc. Bates is a great football player, when he wants to be. 

(10-04-2024, 12:58 PM)Sled21 Wrote: All I'm saying is it is easy for people to remember the good, but tend to forget all the board discussions about Bates' poor mid-season play, his head being in a funk, etc. Bates is a great football player, when he wants to be. 

Truth, don't even get why we are talking about Bates but when he didn't get his extension here he played poorly that season and yes
he played well in the Playoffs and especially the AFCC game against the Chiefs where we went to the SB, but he never played as well 
with us as he has the Falcons.

(10-02-2024, 11:16 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I'm sure that's part of it, but Stone doesn't look like a center fielder FS that this defense had when Bates was a Bengal.
This defense needs a guy like that, and I don't see Stone's speed and athleticism being able to do it.

I felt like Rankins & Stone were always big risks. 

Rankins is a classic Bengals/no scouts/he played well against us so we'll sign him move. 

And Stone played S for a pressure heavy team. 

And Trent Brown is out for the year. 

Almost a total whiff in FA. On top of lising Reader. 

I feel better about me C/C- take on it every day. Though I hope Rankins & Stone & Bell can turn it around. 

I felt/feel a bitter better about the draft. I liked Mins, Jenkins, and Jackson from jump. And All has been a pleasant surprise (a pick I was not happy with at the time). 

(10-04-2024, 01:47 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Truth, don't even get why we are talking about Bates but when he didn't get his extension here he played poorly that season and yes
he played well in the Playoffs and especially the AFCC game against the Chiefs where we went to the SB, but he never played as well 
with us as he has the Falcons.

That's BS Nate;  He was named best Safety in the NFL by PFF in 2020. He had an awesome rookie season in 2018 and he was really good for us in 2022. The whole narrative that he was a bad player for us is complete nonsense. 

(10-04-2024, 02:00 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: I felt like Rankins & Stone were always big risks. 

Rankins is a classic Bengals/no scouts/he played well against us so we'll sign him move. 

And Stone played S for a pressure heavy team. 

And Trent Brown is out for the year. 

Almost a total whiff in FA. On top of lising Reader. 

I feel better about me C/C- take on it every day. Though I hope Rankins & Stone & Bell can turn it around. 

I felt/feel a bitter better about the draft. I liked Mins, Jenkins, and Jackson from jump. And All has been a pleasant surprise (a pick I was not happy with at the time). 

I'm right there with you.

Stone doesn't feel like a fit for this team. Maybe he turns it on though if/when the Bengals actually get some consistent pressure.
He just doesn't seem to have coverage ability like Bates or even Hill, which could limit what he can do if covering for a longer time.

Rankins was never a fit for Reader's spot.
Rankins could potentially do very well if used like Ogunjobi was though.

Trent Brown obviously had a lot of worry for injury, but it provided insurance for Mims.
While Mims has gotten thrust into a starting role maybe a bit earlier than ready for, this is good playing time for his development and hopefully he'll prove to be a good RT at some point this season.
He's shown sparks of great play already, it just isn't consistent yet.

All has been a pleasant surprise, and he might end up being TE1 for the team next year with McLachlan being used as a big receiver and Sample strictly as a blocker.

(10-04-2024, 02:02 PM)J24 Wrote: That's BS Nate;  He was named best Safety in the NFL by PFF in 2020. He had an awesome rookie season in 2018 and he was really good for us in 2022. The whole narrative that he was a bad player for us is complete nonsense. 

I didn't say he was a bad player for us. I said he played poorly, namely tackling the year we didn't offer him an extension and gave him the Tag.

Bates did play great his rookie season, not as good his sophomore season and fantastic in the Playoffs for us.

But we were never going to bring him back, it was always Bell and hoping someone could grow into the future FS. It is not Dax.

Luckily Dax is finding his nitch at boundary Corner at times, just needs to tackle better.

Stone hasn't been that good with us either, too bad.

(10-04-2024, 02:00 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: I felt like Rankins & Stone were always big risks. 

Rankins is a classic Bengals/no scouts/he played well against us so we'll sign him move. 

And Stone played S for a pressure heavy team. 

And Trent Brown is out for the year. 

Almost a total whiff in FA. On top of lising Reader. 

I feel better about me C/C- take on it every day. Though I hope Rankins & Stone & Bell can turn it around. 

I felt/feel a bitter better about the draft. I liked Mins, Jenkins, and Jackson from jump. And All has been a pleasant surprise (a pick I was not happy with at the time). 

Trent Brown was balling before his knee injury. You can't predict that. It as a contact injury.