(01-31-2025, 06:47 PM)J24 Wrote: D I'm confused on what you're saying? You don't think an elite 3T would succeed here next to Trey?

I think that you have 3T tunnel vision. It takes more than just a pass rusher to make a DL functional. We have Trey Hendrickson getting the NFL lead in sacks, but he needs someone on the other side forcing action back to the inside of the pocket. If you weren't able to observe it this year, I don't know how else to explain it to you.

(01-31-2025, 08:24 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I think that you have 3T tunnel vision. It takes more than just a pass rusher to make a DL functional. We have Trey Hendrickson getting the NFL lead in sacks, but he needs someone on the other side forcing action back to the inside of the pocket. If you weren't able to observe it this year, I don't know how else to explain it to you.

We need someone in the middle that can constantly win his matchup inside and push the pocket .This is not a controversial take that you're trying to make it out to be.

(01-31-2025, 09:29 PM)J24 Wrote: We need someone in the middle that can constantly win his matchup inside and push the pocket .This is not a controversial take that you're trying to make it out to be.

Yeah, that part in the middle that was missing for most of this season, it's called a NT. I feel like Jackson will grow into the starter there, but he still will need someone to rotate with. 

(01-31-2025, 09:39 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Yeah, that part in the middle is what was missing for most of this season, it's called a NT. I feel like Jackson will grow into the starter there, but he still will need someone to rotate with. 

If you can get a nose tackle that can rush the passer as well as stop the run(like prime DJ Reader) then sure but those guys are a dime dozen. Its much easier to find a 3T than NT.

(01-31-2025, 07:20 PM)pulses Wrote: I think they would yes i'm just not sure that we will give Trey an extension he's older( they don't usually pays guys 30 and over). I think a trade is more plausible. Someone would give a 2 and 3 for him or a 2 and a 4. I'm not saying I totally agree but I think it could happen.

I don't necessarily disagree with trading Trey if things get bad; A 2& 4 would be disappointing but you're probably right about it.

(01-31-2025, 09:46 PM)J24 Wrote: If you can get a nose tackle that can rush the passer as well as stop the run(like prime DJ Reader) then sure but those guys are a dime dozen. Its much easier to find a 3T than NT.

Are you sure that you agree with what you just said? I mean, NTs play a greater role in making a 4-3 DL function than the 3T. In fact it might be argued that the 3t's success might hinge upon the effectiveness of the NT to draw DTs. And to your earlier point, yes it is much easier to find 3Ts than NTs as the job that they perform requires some specific physical requirements that are rare among average men.

(01-31-2025, 09:54 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Are you sure that you agree with what you just said? I mean, NTs play a greater role in making a 4-3 DL function than the 3T. In fact it might be argued that the 3t's success might hinge upon the effectiveness of the NT to draw DTs. And to your earlier point, yes it is much easier to find 3Ts than NTs as the job that they perform requires some specific physical requirements that are rare among average men.

You guys are kind of arguing over a middle ground here. A great Nose Tackle that can take up double teams is extremely valuable and I 
do think McKinnley Jackson can eventually be this guy but if we had a 3-tech that could blow up the IOL like Geno Atkins used to do it 
would completely transform the Defense and is another dimension that could put our D on another level.

(Yesterday, 12:15 AM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: You guys are kind of arguing over a middle ground here. A great Nose Tackle that can take up double teams is extremely valuable and I 
do think McKinnley Jackson can eventually be this guy but if we had a 3-tech that could blow up the IOL like Geno Atkins used to do it 
would completely transform the Defense and is another dimension that could put our D on another level.

DT Darius Alexander from Toledo blew up at the senior bowl  6'4 305 he was originally a 4th/5th rounder now they think he's a 2nd or 3rd. He was kind of doing everything.

(Yesterday, 12:42 AM)pulses Wrote: DT Darius Alexander from Toledo blew up at the senior bowl  6'4 305 he was originally a 4th/5th rounder now they think he's a 2nd or 3rd. He was kind of doing everything.

Awesome, thanks Pulses will have to check that dude out. A great 3-tech is extremely valuable to J24's point even if I understand that a 
good Nose Tackle can be really underrated.

(Yesterday, 12:47 AM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Awesome, thanks Pulses will have to check that dude out. A great 3-tech is extremely valuable to J24's point even if I understand that a 
good Nose Tackle can be really underrated.

CJ West from IU is another and more built like Geno but a little heavier 6'1 315 and stout.

(Yesterday, 12:15 AM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: You guys are kind of arguing over a middle ground here. A great Nose Tackle that can take up double teams is extremely valuable and I 
do think McKinnley Jackson can eventually be this guy but if we had a 3-tech that could blow up the IOL like Geno Atkins used to do it 
would completely transform the Defense and is another dimension that could put our D on another level.

My whole point in the conversation with J24 is that getting a super duper 3T isn't going to fix what's wrong with the defense. The DL needs for all 4 components to be functional in order to perform their job as a unit. We've got a sack leader on the unit, what did that get us? Losing our NT and DE sure as heck cost us a lot of rushing yards yielded. You have to be able to stop the run before rushing the passer means anything.

(Yesterday, 01:39 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: My whole point in the conversation with J24 is that getting a super duper 3T isn't going to fix what's wrong with the defense. The DL needs for all 4 components to be functional in order to perform their job as a unit. We've got a sack leader on the unit, what did that get us? Losing our NT and DE sure as heck cost us a lot of rushing yards yielded. You have to be able to stop the run before rushing the passer means anything.

I agree with your general point, Sunset, but also...

2023 with Reader: 26th rushing overall/30th rushing YPC
2024 without Reader: 19th rushing overall/16th rushing YPC

2023 Lions without Reader: 2nd rushing overall/3rd rushing YPC
2024 Lions with Reader: 5th rushing overall/22nd rushing YPC

...I fully accept that there's other factors at play, but I just need to push back on everyone talking about how us letting Reader go was some huge loss. We were bad against the run with him. The Lions run defense was good without Reader and it didn't get better with him, he was very mediocre this year. I think we can just say the guy was a pretty good player that has been vastly overrated because he not only wore our uniform, but wore our uniform in a SB.

(Yesterday, 01:59 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I agree with your general point, Sunset, but also...

2023 with Reader: 26th rushing overall/30th rushing YPC
2024 without Reader: 19th rushing overall/16th rushing YPC

2023 Lions without Reader: 2nd rushing overall/3rd rushing YPC
2024 Lions with Reader: 5th rushing overall/22nd rushing YPC

...I fully accept that there's other factors at play, but I just need to push back on everyone talking about how us letting Reader go was some huge loss. We were bad against the run with him. The Lions run defense was good without Reader and it didn't get better with him, he was very mediocre this year. I think we can just say the guy was a pretty good player that has been vastly overrated because he not only wore our uniform, but wore our uniform in a SB.

Those are some eye opening comparisons on the DJ Reader situation. Weren't the Bengals dead last versus the run at one point this season, before the "changes" that were made over the bye week?

(Yesterday, 12:15 AM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: You guys are kind of arguing over a middle ground here. A great Nose Tackle that can take up double teams is extremely valuable and I 
do think McKinnley Jackson can eventually be this guy but if we had a 3-tech that could blow up the IOL like Geno Atkins used to do it 
would completely transform the Defense and is another dimension that could put our D on another level.

Exactly!

(Yesterday, 12:42 AM)pulses Wrote: DT Darius Alexander from Toledo blew up at the senior bowl  6'4 305 he was originally a 4th/5th rounder now they think he's a 2nd or 3rd. He was kind of doing everything.

Omar Norman Lott from Tennessee is also a guy keep an eye out for.

(Yesterday, 01:39 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: My whole point in the conversation with J24 is that getting a super duper 3T isn't going to fix what's wrong with the defense. The DL needs for all 4 components to be functional in order to perform their job as a unit. We've got a sack leader on the unit, what did that get us? Losing our NT and DE sure as heck cost us a lot of rushing yards yielded. You have to be able to stop the run before rushing the passer means anything.

1.) We drafted two run stuffing DTs last season in Jenkins and Jackson.
2.)Our Defensive Tackles only had 60 pressures amongst them(according to PFF). IDK where that ranks amongst the NFL but considering that there where 3 DTs that had 60 or more pressures by themselves this season then it can't be  a good stat.
3.) Adding a "Super Duper" player at any position would make the defense better! Especially a guy that can consistently bring pressure up the middle.

(Yesterday, 01:59 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I agree with your general point, Sunset, but also...

2023 with Reader: 26th rushing overall/30th rushing YPC
2024 without Reader: 19th rushing overall/16th rushing YPC

2023 Lions without Reader: 2nd rushing overall/3rd rushing YPC
2024 Lions with Reader: 5th rushing overall/22nd rushing YPC

...I fully accept that there's other factors at play, but I just need to push back on everyone talking about how us letting Reader go was some huge loss. We were bad against the run with him. The Lions run defense was good without Reader and it didn't get better with him, he was very mediocre this year. I think we can just say the guy was a pretty good player that has been vastly overrated because he not only wore our uniform, but wore our uniform in a SB.

The Bengals were 5th in rushing defense in both 2022 and 2021. So that means Reader has been a part  of a top 5 run defense three out of the last 5 seasons.

(Yesterday, 03:40 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Those are some eye opening comparisons on the DJ Reader situation. Weren't the Bengals dead last versus the run at one point this season, before the "changes" that were made over the bye week?

It also helped we played much worse rushing teams.

Rushing offenses (by YPC) faced before the bye....
13th
29th
4th
10th
1st
18th
23rd
5th
32nd
1st
24th
Faced after the bye...
25th
30th
22nd
23rd
21st
25th

Average rank before bye: 14.5
Average rank after bye: 24.3

(Yesterday, 04:27 PM)J24 Wrote: The Bengals were 5th in rushing defense in both 2022 and 2021. So that means Reader has been a part  of a top 5 run defense three out of the last 5 seasons.

That also means Josh Tupou has been part of a top-5 run defense 3 of the last 5 seasons.

(Yesterday, 01:59 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I agree with your general point, Sunset, but also...

2023 with Reader: 26th rushing overall/30th rushing YPC
2024 without Reader: 19th rushing overall/16th rushing YPC

2023 Lions without Reader: 2nd rushing overall/3rd rushing YPC
2024 Lions with Reader: 5th rushing overall/22nd rushing YPC

...I fully accept that there's other factors at play, but I just need to push back on everyone talking about how us letting Reader go was some huge loss. We were bad against the run with him. The Lions run defense was good without Reader and it didn't get better with him, he was very mediocre this year. I think we can just say the guy was a pretty good player that has been vastly overrated because he not only wore our uniform, but wore our uniform in a SB.

... And he was the top FA at his position the year we nabbed him. Reader had a solid ride here but was definitely injury prone and he wasn't getting any younger. I saw him on a list of potential cap cuts this year.

(Yesterday, 04:37 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That also means Josh Tupou has been part of a top-5 run defense 3 of the last 5 seasons.

So?

I played football but never coached it. Help me understand the different DT roles I think I get the nose tackle's job is to occupy to blockers and most are not great pass rushers normally nor do they make a lot of solo tackles.

I see the best DT's in the league and it appears most not a top 15 draft pick took time to develop. In some cases years.
Chris Jones - 37th pick in 2016 by Chiefs, did not start as a rookie every game (11/16), year 2 7/16. He did not break out until year 3 and now arguably best DT in football.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Jones_(defensive_tackle,_born_1994)

Q. Williams - 3rd overall pick. Started 9 of 13 games, had 2.5 sacks, year 2 13/13 had 7 sacks, year 3 13/13 had 6 sacks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinnen_Williams

The point is how many DT's have come in as rookies or even in year 2 and made pro bowls or dominated?

Is it realistic to expect a late 2nd round or 3 round pick to excel as a rookie?

Where would a Q. Williams or Chris Jones start as a Bengal?

Who in the 2025 draft resembles a similar skill set to Chris Jones when he came out of college? Would you have guessed Chris Jones in 3 years at Miss. State had these sack totals?

Season Team                GP Solo Ast Cmb TfL Yds Sck Yds FR FF
2013 Mississippi State     13 17   15   32    7   28 3.0   26  0   0
2014 Mississippi State     12  9    17   26   3.5 13 3.0   12  0   0
2015 Mississippi State     13 16   28   44   7.5  21 2.5   16  0   0
Career                           38 42   60 102  18.0 62 8.5   54  0   0

(Yesterday, 04:37 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That also means Josh Tupou has been part of a top-5 run defense 3 of the last 5 seasons.

Tupou was eating pine 95 % of the time as well