(Yesterday, 02:46 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Exactly. Since Burrow has been here:

Logan Wilson - 3rd round
Ossai - 3rd round
Dax - 1st round
CTB - 2nd round
Zach Carter - 3rd round
Murphy - 1st round
Turner - 2nd round
Battle - 3rd round
Jenkins - 2nd round
Jackson - 3rd round

That’s a lot of premium picks. So I’m not sure where this boo hoo the poor defense narrative is coming from.

The reason they have spent so many premium picks on the defense is because they let a lot the better talent leave from the defense so they could save money to give to the offensive guys.  Its also not like they havent used premium picks on the offense in the past 5 years either

Burrow - 1st round
Higgins - 2nd round
Chase - 1st round
Carman - 2nd round
Mims - 1st round
Burton - 3rd round

In the past 5 years the Bengals have spent just as many 1st and 2nd round draft picks on offense as they have defense, 5

My big issue with the way this all happened was that we didn't do it earlier. Probably cost the team ~7 to 10M AAV by not getting these deals signed last off season.

That's a starting guard's salary right there.

But I agree, I don't believe they could have spent this money more effectively than they did with Tee Higgins, given the free agent class.

(Yesterday, 11:35 AM)bfine32 Wrote: At least we've grown as a fanbase from complaining about them NOT spending money to HOW they spend money.

Baby steps.

At least Mikey boy can't be accused of pocketing the money this time.

(Yesterday, 12:19 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Can you explain the Steelers 24 point swing? You omitted that.

Russ had one of the best games of his life against us in that first matchup. It was the only game he got above 300 yards last season, let alone 400. It was also one of Lou’s absolute worst coaching performances, right up there with the Mike White game.

I mean, I guess you can hang your hat on the fact that he didn’t ball out again the 2nd time, but for me the competition was a huge factor during that winning streak.

(Yesterday, 03:45 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: The reason they have spent so many premium picks on the defense is because they let a lot the better talent leave from the defense so they could save money to give to the offensive guys.  Its also not like they havent used premium picks on the offense in the past 5 years either

Burrow - 1st round
Higgins - 2nd round
Chase - 1st round
Carman - 2nd round
Mims - 1st round
Burton - 3rd round

In the past 5 years the Bengals have spent just as many 1st and 2nd round draft picks on offense as they have defense, 5

The difference is the guys on offense actually hit and deserved to be paid. We need some of the defensive picks to do that now.

(Yesterday, 03:45 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: The reason they have spent so many premium picks on the defense is because they let a lot the better talent leave from the defense so they could save money to give to the offensive guys.  Its also not like they havent used premium picks on the offense in the past 5 years either

Burrow - 1st round
Higgins - 2nd round
Chase - 1st round
Carman - 2nd round
Mims - 1st round
Burton - 3rd round

In the past 5 years the Bengals have spent just as many 1st and 2nd round draft picks on offense as they have defense, 5

Not all picks are equal though.

Higgins was 33 that’s basically the same as Dax Hill at 31.

It’s been just three top 50 picks on D in 8 years and that includes Kris Jenkins at 49 last year. Compare that to the four top 20 picks on O in that time frame.

The last three R2 picks on O were 46, 33 and 52. Compare that to D which was 49, 60 and 60.

The last three R3 picks on D were 95, 95 and 97. The last R3 O pick was Burton at 80, then 83 and 85.

Usually a draft class is something like
1-5 1A
6-15 1B
15-25 1C
26-40 2A
41-55 2B etc

The distribution will vary a little each year but this year they’ve got a shot at a 1B player on D for the first time since 2008. That should be massive for this D. They could get a 2B as well. That might be the biggest injection of draft defensive talent on paper since Pollack and Thurman.

(Yesterday, 08:33 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: The difference is the guys on offense actually hit and deserved to be paid. We need some of the defensive picks to do that now.

It's much easier to hit when you are picking in the top 5, twice.  Those are generally cant miss picks.  Mims was picked 17th.  Jonah Williams was 11th.  The highest pick Zac has spent on defense was Myles Murphy at #28.  Overall Zac Taylor has spent 7 1st and 2nd round picks on offense vs 5 on defense.  Also, the picks on offense have been much higher so all picks are not the same.

Offense:  1, 5, 11, 17, 33, 46, 52

Defense:  28, 31, 49, 60, 60

(Yesterday, 10:08 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: It's much easier to hit when you are picking in the top 5, twice.  Those are generally cant miss picks.  Mims was picked 17th.  Jonah Williams was 11th.  The highest pick Zac has spent on defense was Myles Murphy at #28.  Overall Zac Taylor has spent 7 1st and 2nd round picks on offense vs 5 on defense.  Also, the picks on offense have been much higher so all picks are not the same.

Offense:  1, 5, 11, 17, 33, 46, 52

Defense:  28, 31, 49, 60, 60

They need to find their versions of Quinyon Mitchell and Cooper DeJean. Philly got those guys at 22 and 40 and both were very good starters on a SB winning team.

(Yesterday, 10:08 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: It's much easier to hit when you are picking in the top 5, twice.  Those are generally cant miss picks.  Mims was picked 17th.  Jonah Williams was 11th.  The highest pick Zac has spent on defense was Myles Murphy at #28.  Overall Zac Taylor has spent 7 1st and 2nd round picks on offense vs 5 on defense.  Also, the picks on offense have been much higher so all picks are not the same.

Offense:  1, 5, 11, 17, 33, 46, 52

Defense:  28, 31, 49, 60, 60

Over the last 3 drafts 8 out of10, 1st through third round picks have gone to defense.

Prior to that, the bengals went way out of character acquiring vets over a 2 year span:

Reader, Hendrickson, Hill, Larry O, Chido, Vonn. Lou was gifted a good veteran defense, the issue was he couldn’t coach up ANY of the young guys to help take over the last 3 years. The 2019-2020 offseason defense addition model is unsustainable.

It’s not like the bengals just say.. we are picking top 5… gonna go offense here. Burrow and Chase were BPA at the time. Same for Dax, Murphy, etc when they were getting picked (hindsight 20/20).

You’re really trying to manipulate this into some twisted non truth.

The reality is the bengals had one of the highest paid defenses in the NFL last year and they were not returning on invesment.

(Yesterday, 10:24 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: They need to find their versions of Quinyon Mitchell and Cooper DeJean. Philly got those guys at 22 and 40 and both were very good starters on a SB winning team.

Yes they do.  I still think a lot of the Bengals problems go back to having a bad scouting department.  It is easier to hit on earlier picks because those earlier picks are the consensus best players.  The further down the list you go, the better your scouting department needs to be.  Sometimes the guys you pick just arent that good.  Some fans will say stuff like "The Bengals spent a 1st round pick on Myles Murphy so the coaching staff needs to coach up Murphy and make him better"  Maybe Myles Murphy wasn't a good draft pick to begin with and cant be coached up to become a good football player.  Maybe he is just young and needs more time.  Its not as easy as saying "he should be better because the Bengals spent a 1st round pick on him"  The Bengals spent a 2nd round pick on Drew Sample.  Why doesnt the coaching staff coach him up and make him a #1 TE?  Why didnt they coach up Jackson Carman and make him better?  You could ask the same question about every day 1 or day 2 draft pick that turns out to not be that great of a pick.  Ultimately, I think the problem goes back to scouting.

(Yesterday, 10:30 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Over the last 3 drafts 8 out of10, 1st through third round picks have gone to defense.  

Prior to that, the bengals went way out of character acquiring vets over a 2 year span:

Reader, Hendrickson, Hill, Larry O, Chido, Vonn.  Lou was gifted a good veteran defense, the issue was he couldn’t coach up ANY of the young guys to help take over the last 3 years.  The 2019-2020 offseason defense addition model is unsustainable.

You act as though Lou was gifted this super talented defense.  He was not.  Many of the guys on defense became better football players under Lou's coaching. He made his secondary work with Awuzie and Apple as his #1 and #2 corners.  What did either one of them do before they came to Lou as coach and what did they do after they left Lou?  He took a subpar BJ Hill that the Giants thought so little of they traded him for Billy Price yet Lou made him into a good DT.  Trey Hendrickson flourished under Lou.  Pratt and Wilson were drafted under Lou and have played well.  Which guys on defense is it you think should be much better than what they are because of coaching?  

(Yesterday, 10:30 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: It’s not like the bengals just say.. we are picking top 5… gonna go offense here.  Burrow and Chase were BPA at the time.  Same for Dax, Murphy, etc when they were getting picked (hindsight 20/20).

You’re really trying to manipulate this into some twisted non truth.  

Im not trying to twist anything.  I pointed out the facts.  You can choose to ignore those facts but it doesnt change what it is.  Under Zac Taylor the Bengals have used 7 1st and 2nd round draft picks on offense while using just 5 on defense.  The picks on offense have also been much higher than the ones used on defense.  That matters a lot which is why you want to have higher draft picks and why they are valued more than lower draft picks even in the 1st round.

Since you mentioned Dax Hill lets use the 2022 draft as an example.  Dax was picked #31, CTB was #60.  If they Bengals had a top 5 pick they take someone like Sauce Garner or Derek Stingley Jr instead or maybe even Kyle Hamilton.  The reason they take Dax or CTB latter is because they were a couple of guy who were left after the more sought after guys were taken.  The Bengals didnt have the option to take Garner or Stingley or Hamilton because those top guys were gone.  If the Bengals dont have top 5 picks they dont get Burrow or Chase.  The offense has been gifted high offensive draft picks.  The defense hasnt.

(Yesterday, 11:38 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: The offense has been gifted high offensive draft picks.  The defense hasnt.

I already mentioned the Eagles, but what about KC? Their best DL (Jones) was drafted 37th, their best LB (Bolton) 58th, and their best DB (McDuffie) 21st.

Spags wasn’t “gifted” a bunch of high picks either, and we’ve all seen his results.

(11 hours ago)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I already mentioned the Eagles, but what about KC? Their best DL (Jones) was drafted 37th, their best LB (Bolton) 58th, and their best DB (McDuffie) 21st.

Spags wasn’t “gifted” a bunch of high picks either, and we’ve all seen his results.

37 is a much better spot to get a DT than 49; 21 is a much better spot to get a DB than 31.

You’re picking from the next tier down with those picks.When you pick from a lower bucket you are typically picking a lesser athlete or picking an equivalent athlete but with lesser production - which is usually a red flag.

58 is comparable to 65. But just compare the difference in picking 65 (Logan Wilson) or even 72 (Germaine Pratt) to 78 (Malik Jefferson), 87 (Nick Vigil), 99 (Paul Dawson), 118 (Sean Porter).

Picking from the tier down is playing in hard mode. That does matter. You end up gambling on players with red flags who bust. You pick lesser athletes who just don’t have the same impact.

Of course occasionally you’ll get someone who completely outperforms their draft slot - Geno Atkins, Jessie Bates, Tee Higgins. With hindsight the League takes them all in the first round. But for the most part draft position does matter. You’ll do really well to get an impact DE at 28, a star QB outside the top 5, a star CB after about 25, a star tackle after about 15 (we were lucky last year was deep at OT for Mims) etc. But picking 17 this year there’s a chance there’s an elite DE or CB still there. We probably will have our pick of safety of linebacker at 17 should we so wish. We could probably get a really good LB at 49, maybe a S but if we’re looking for DEs, CBs or DTs at 49 they are going to have flawed profiles.

(Yesterday, 11:38 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: You act as though Lou was gifted this super talented defense.  He was not.  Many of the guys on defense became better football players under Lou's coaching. He made his secondary work with Awuzie and Apple as his #1 and #2 corners.  What did either one of them do before they came to Lou as coach and what did they do after they left Lou?  He took a subpar BJ Hill that the Giants thought so little of they traded him for Billy Price yet Lou made him into a good DT.  Trey Hendrickson flourished under Lou.  Pratt and Wilson were drafted under Lou and have played well.  Which guys on defense is it you think should be much better than what they are because of coaching?  



Im not trying to twist anything.  I pointed out the facts.  You can choose to ignore those facts but it doesnt change what it is.  Under Zac Taylor the Bengals have used 7 1st and 2nd round draft picks on offense while using just 5 on defense.  The picks on offense have also been much higher than the ones used on defense.  That matters a lot which is why you want to have higher draft picks and why they are valued more than lower draft picks even in the 1st round.

Since you mentioned Dax Hill lets use the 2022 draft as an example.  Dax was picked #31, CTB was #60.  If they Bengals had a top 5 pick they take someone like Sauce Garner or Derek Stingley Jr instead or maybe even Kyle Hamilton.  The reason they take Dax or CTB latter is because they were a couple of guy who were left after the more sought after guys were taken.  The Bengals didnt have the option to take Garner or Stingley or Hamilton because those top guys were gone.  If the Bengals dont have top 5 picks they dont get Burrow or Chase.  The offense has been gifted high offensive draft picks.  The defense hasnt.

You’re silly. Teams like the Steelers and ravens hardly ever have a pick in the teens, yet they still field incredible defenses. Built around mostly the draft. Considering the Steelers haven’t had a losing season under tomlin, we are going on about 20 years of them not having a top 10 pick, unless there was a trade up. But I don’t follow them closely.


It’s hard to compare a top 5 pick going to offense va defense when offensive playmakers are the premium.

You also keep leaving out very valuable 3rd round picks.

8 of the last 10 (day 1 and day 2) picks has been used on defense.

Burrow and Chase need, and should, be excluded from this discussion because they were slam dunk generational picks. At no point was a defensive player considered at either spot. burrow was stand alone and then it was Chase/sewell/ occasional Pitts (thank goodness here).

(4 hours ago)TJHoushmandzadehs Shiny Shoes Wrote: 37 is a much better spot to get a DT than 49; 21 is a much better spot to get a DB than 31.

You’re picking from the next tier down with those picks.When you pick from a lower bucket you are typically picking a lesser athlete or picking an equivalent athlete but with lesser production - which is usually a red flag.

58 is comparable to 65. But just compare the difference in picking 65 (Logan Wilson) or even 72 (Germaine Pratt) to 78 (Malik Jefferson), 87 (Nick Vigil), 99 (Paul Dawson), 118 (Sean Porter).

Picking from the tier down is playing in hard mode. That does matter. You end up gambling on players with red flags who bust. You pick lesser athletes who just don’t have the same impact.

Of course occasionally you’ll get someone who completely outperforms their draft slot - Geno Atkins, Jessie Bates, Tee Higgins. With hindsight the League takes them all in the first round. But for the most part draft position does matter. You’ll do really well to get an impact DE at 28, a star QB outside the top 5, a star CB after about 25, a star tackle after about 15 (we were lucky last year was deep at OT for Mims) etc. But picking 17 this year there’s a chance there’s an elite DE or CB still there. We probably will have our pick of safety of linebacker at 17 should we so wish. We could probably get a really good LB at 49, maybe a S but if we’re looking for DEs, CBs or DTs at 49 they are going to have flawed profiles.

I don’t even know where to start with this. The only thing I come back to, is that defense, and OL, has been the primary focus of improvement every year. It’s not where the picks are. It’s either bad scouting, bad coaching, or a combo of both.

The chiefs are drafting above average and all pro with their “tier up pool of players”. The bengals are getting below average production. It’s not apples to apples. I just wish for the days where we could solidify a position for 5+ years and not worry about it (Carlos Dunlap, Michael Johnson, Sam Hubbard, Peko). Forget all pro player, just consistent contribution.

Same goes for offense.

(3 hours ago)Bengalbug Wrote: I don’t even know where to start with this. The only thing I come back to, is that defense, and OL, has been the primary focus of improvement every year. It’s not where the picks are. It’s either bad scouting, bad coaching, or a combo of both.

The chiefs are drafting above average and all pro with their “tier up pool of players”. The bengals are getting below average production. It’s not apples to apples. I just wish for the days where we could solidify a position for 5+ years and not worry about it (Carlos Dunlap, Michael Johnson, Sam Hubbard, Peko). Forget all pro player, just consistent contribution.

Same goes for offense.

It is where the picks are. For years we struggled to draft LBers. All of a sudden we draft up a tier and we hit two years in a row with Pratt and Wilson.

For years we struggled to draft OL. All of a sudden we pick at 18 and we hit at OT.

For years we struggled at G and C. Then we invest in FA with Karras and Cappa instead of Su’afila or John Simpson and things improved.

What you invest matters.

Of course if you get someone who outperforms their draft position and be a star that can change the dynamic of your team. But chasing star WRs in the 3rd round gets you Burton.

When you draft up a tier you get players with more complete profiles instead of rolling the dice on someone with a major gap in their profile (this could be injury (Erick All), character (Burton), production (Murphy) or athleticism).

If you look at the Ravens’ defensive stars they are players like Kyle Hamilton (14th overall), Marlon Humphrey (16th overall), Roquan Smith (was drafted 8th overall, the Ravens traded for him in a blockbuster move). Three players drafted top 20. The Bengals have none on D. They have three on O. Guess which unit is elite?

The Steelers’ D is built around Minkah Fitzpatrick (11th overall, blockbuster trade), Cam Heyward and TJ Watt. Heyward and Watt were with hindsight misses from the League, like Higgins was. That can happen but it’s not a viable strategy to plan for and more a bonus if it happens.

At 17 they should be able to get a playmaker on D with a more complete profile and less risk. This is a pick they need to nail. If they get it right it’ll set up the D for years to come and elevate the players around him. The hope is we won’t be picking this high again for many years.