(01-09-2016, 10:23 AM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: The prequels came after the fact.  The prequels are already established as being bad and one of the things that made them so bad was the outrageousness of the technology used.  I mean, Anakin built C3PO and R2 was present through to whole thing, how come they didn't know who Leia was, how come they didn't recognize the name Skywalker and maybe tell Luke that Vader is his father.  Then add to the extra quick space travel and you now have a recipe for a flop.  The suspension of belief wasn't enough to make the movie work.

I get you have a problem with what you see as plot holes. It's been a while since I have watched the original trilogy, but I don't think there was a week spent on the Falcon.

On to this bit. C3PO was wiped at the end of 3. R2 has proven to have a personality where he will hold back information like that. He is quite the obstinant little droid.

(01-09-2016, 10:23 AM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: No, it isn't that we don't understand it.

Think about this...

The OT came out and there was no talk about how long the trip would take.  So it was assumed that Obi Wan spent the time he was traveling to Alderaan training Luke and giving him a crash course in the ways of the force.  Luke was given an overview of how it works and while incomplete, which with the suspension of belief, was enough to plausibly explain him forgoing the screens of his ship and trusting his instincts, albeit with a little encouragement from beyond the grave Obi Wan, and making what would be considered an impossible shot.

Now with Rey, she has no such time with a force user, and she is already skilled enough to perform all of these feats.  When someone like me points this out, I am met with the stupid response "you didn't have a problem with Luke not being trained".  So now I have to explain why that argument isn't valid, since I was already under the premise that Luke had about 1 week (at least) on the Falcon getting some instruction.

The prequels came after the fact.  The prequels are already established as being bad and one of the things that made them so bad was the outrageousness of the technology used.  I mean, Anakin built C3PO and R2 was present through to whole thing, how come they didn't know who Leia was, how come they didn't recognize the name Skywalker and maybe tell Luke that Vader is his father.  Then add to the extra quick space travel and you now have a recipe for a flop.  The suspension of belief wasn't enough to make the movie work.

During the mission briefing a pilot stated the shot would be impossible, even for the computer.

Luke replied that it was not impossible, as he used to bulls eye wamp rats in his T16 that were the same size.

Luke had no disbelief that he could do it, as he had done it routinely without a computer before, PRIOR to any training from Obi Wan. 

So wasn't an untrained Luke using the Force already, and just not realizing it?  That is why Obi Wan tells him to turn off the computer and trust his feelings to destroy the Death Star.

I see that as no different than Rey not being trained, but realizing that she can use the Force, especially after Ren had used it to enter her mind but she was able to defend it.  In my opinion, she has the blueprint the moment she pushes Ren from her brain.

Rey was already very well trained with a staff, she kicked some asses on Jakku.

My only problem with the movie.

 

Kylo went from badass looking villain to Andy Samberg/Keanu Reeves' lovechild.  C'mon man.  I started laughing when he unmasked.

Maybe some of you guys had already seen head-shots of the guy who was going to play the character.

To me it just seemed comical.  Is he a ***** brat?  Absolutely.  They could have done better though.

On the positive note...  I thought the other new characters were exactly what this franchise needed.

Too much on the new films were focused on effects that Lucas couldn't achieve previously and not enough on casting and characters(except Ewan).

It was nice to see that return.  

If Anakin would have removed his mask you would have a nice laugh too.

The mask is a symbol of losing your humanity, if Ren sometimes removes it, it's because he's not a machine yet.

(01-09-2016, 06:27 AM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: I obviously understand the new movie more than you.  You do see the propaganda in the movie?  How they even hit you over the head with them?

You keep going on about people thinking Ren = Vader.  I don't think I have EVER seen a person make that correlation except for people clearly reaching for any excuse to justify one of the most boring characters in the movies.

Ren is not Vader, he even doubts that he would be anywhere near as good as Vader was.  

If Ren is not Vader and is more closely to Luke in ESB, then who is Rey?

I mean Luke will try to train Rey, only for her to go... "No thanks, I got this" and then stomp Snoke while everyone adores her perfection.

I wouldn't even be surprised if the big twist is for Rey to turn to the dark side at the end of this trilogy, to set up another trilogy in which her midochlorian concepted child has to try and turn her to the light side again.

You have literally compared Rey vs Ren to Vader fighting Luke several times. 
It's a lame comparison because Ren isn't trained. 

Obviously the most basic plot line of the whole movie was Rey discovering and using the force on her own. We know she is highly intelligent, highly agile, skilled hand-to-hand combat, and highly independent. She already had all the traits of a forceuser as I call them since the Jedis and Siths are idealoigies of how to use the force.

But really it was after Han telling her that the force was real, not mumbo jumbo, and then of course the picking up the lightsaber scene which is crucial to discussions above. That was literally the moment she took her first steps in using the force with the visions. Obi-Wan reached out to her as she also heard Yoda, though she has no clue who they are just yet. But somehow she knew it was real from that point on, and the confrontation with Kylo she tapped into it for the first time with her determination to block him. And it was then she started to manipulate it in those few seconds to work on Kylos mind.

The escape was her knowing the Jedi mind trick stories out there which is common lore in the systems. And with everything that just happened, she gave it a shot, though the second time it worked when she focused on it.

I believe she will be the Skywalker that finally brings peace and justice to the galaxy. At least until a new Sith lord emerges years later and they start this all over again. lol

(01-09-2016, 10:23 AM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: No, it isn't that we don't understand it.

Think about this...

The OT came out and there was no talk about how long the trip would take.  So it was assumed that Obi Wan spent the time he was traveling to Alderaan training Luke and giving him a crash course in the ways of the force.  Luke was given an overview of how it works and while incomplete, which with the suspension of belief, was enough to plausibly explain him forgoing the screens of his ship and trusting his instincts, albeit with a little encouragement from beyond the grave Obi Wan, and making what would be considered an impossible shot.

Now with Rey, she has no such time with a force user, and she is already skilled enough to perform all of these feats.  When someone like me points this out, I am met with the stupid response "you didn't have a problem with Luke not being trained".  So now I have to explain why that argument isn't valid, since I was already under the premise that Luke had about 1 week (at least) on the Falcon getting some instruction.

The prequels came after the fact.  The prequels are already established as being bad and one of the things that made them so bad was the outrageousness of the technology used.  I mean, Anakin built C3PO and R2 was present through to whole thing, how come they didn't know who Leia was, how come they didn't recognize the name Skywalker and maybe tell Luke that Vader is his father.  Then add to the extra quick space travel and you now have a recipe for a flop.  The suspension of belief wasn't enough to make the movie work.

She does a whole 4 things.

1) resists a whole one of Ren's many mind probes, and, as a result, gets a brief glimpse in his head.

2) after 4 tries, successfully mind tricks a storm trooper.

3) uses the most basic force move to grab a lightsaber. 

4) listens to Maz's advice and let's the force take over, briefly gaining the upper hand in a fight where her opponent was trying to not hurt her and convince her to be his apprentice. 

(01-10-2016, 03:05 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: She does a whole 4 things.

1) resists a whole one of Ren's many mind probes, and, as a result, gets a brief glimpse in his head.

2) after 4 tries, successfully mind tricks a storm trooper.

3) uses the most basic force move to grab a lightsaber. 

4) listens to Maz's advice and let's the force take over, briefly gaining the upper hand in a fight where her opponent was trying to not hurt her and convince her to be his apprentice. 

So much more impressive than destroying shit at age 8....

(01-10-2016, 03:05 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: She does a whole 4 things.

1) resists a whole one of Ren's many mind probes, and, as a result, gets a brief glimpse in his head.

2) after 4 tries, successfully mind tricks a storm trooper.

3) uses the most basic force move to grab a lightsaber. 

4) listens to Maz's advice and let's the force take over, briefly gaining the upper hand in a fight where her opponent was trying to not hurt her and convince her to be his apprentice. 

I think the saber jumped to her.

(01-10-2016, 08:15 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: I think the saber jumped to her.

There's an obvious force connection to it. It literally called out to her earlier.

(01-11-2016, 09:54 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: There's an obvious force connection to it. It literally called out to her earlier.

Well that just ruined my ability to buy in. THANKS

Finally got to see the movie Saturday. Outstanding. Probably the only one that comes close to Return of the Jedi.

This may have been worth watching the prequels.

Only complaint (so far) is I would like to see more than one Jedi. The 'one man versus a galaxy' worked for the first trilogy. Luke and the rebel alliance were easy to misjudge, David versus Goliath. Especially considering the leadership was trying to win Luke to their favor, not beat him. Plus, while he didn't have much training, Luke trained with Yoda.

It's not going to be as plausible this time around if some nerf herder from nowhere shows up to take on a slightly better prepared batch of Sith with no training*.


* Although I think Rey had some training, as I think she was one of Luke's students, but doesn't remember it.

(01-11-2016, 06:00 PM)Benton Wrote: Finally got to see the movie Saturday. Outstanding. Probably the only one that comes close to Return of the Jedi.

This may have been worth watching the prequels.

Only complaint (so far) is I would like to see more than one Jedi. The 'one man versus a galaxy' worked for the first trilogy. Luke and the rebel alliance were easy to misjudge, David versus Goliath. Especially considering the leadership was trying to win Luke to their favor, not beat him. Plus, while he didn't have much training, Luke trained with Yoda.

It's not going to be as plausible this time around if some nerf herder from nowhere shows up to take on a slightly better prepared batch of Sith with no training*.


* Although I think Rey had some training, as I think she was one of Luke's students, but doesn't remember it.

In fairness, the bad guy had very little (incomplete) training as well.

It was amateur hour that night....

(01-11-2016, 06:13 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: In fairness, the bad guy had very little (incomplete) training as well.

It was amateur hour that night....

In RotJ? Or the new one?

(01-11-2016, 07:09 PM)Benton Wrote: In RotJ? Or the new one?

TFA.
Referring to one Jedi taking on a batch of sith...

(01-11-2016, 07:26 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: TFA.
Referring to one Jedi taking on a batch of sith...

Ah. I thought you meant Vader's training hadn't been complete in RotJ.

In the new one, I don't hold it against Emo Ken. It doesn't sound like he had been in too many (fair) lightsaber fights in a while and he was trying to recruit Rey instead of kill her, part of Vader's problem in fighting Luke in RotJ.

I've still only seen it one time, but I was talking to a co-worker who also saw it opening weekend and mentioned that I thought Luke was at a grave when we finally see him.

He saw it again over the weekend and made a point to keep an eye open for it in that scene, and he said it did appear to him that it could have been a grave marker.

Leaves me even more inclined to believe that it is the grave of Luke's wife, Rey's mother.

Not sure it's a grave, I saw it multiple times get some slow motion and I can't confirm.

Once again, Skywalker seems to be more like a Kenobi character ( loyal good ) and he's still dressed as a jedi. So my guess is that he followed the code and didn't get married.

(01-11-2016, 09:11 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: I've still only seen it one time, but I was talking to a co-worker who also saw it opening weekend and mentioned that I thought Luke was at a grave when we finally see him.

He saw it again over the weekend and made a point to keep an eye open for it in that scene, and he said it did appear to him that it could have been a grave marker.

Leaves me even more inclined to believe that it is the grave of Luke's wife, Rey's mother.

(01-12-2016, 06:40 AM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Not sure it's a grave, I saw it multiple times get some slow motion and I can't confirm.

Once again, Skywalker seems to be more like a Kenobi character ( loyal good ) and he's still dressed as a jedi. So my guess is that he followed the code and didn't get married.

It looked like a grave to me. My son and I were talking after and, to him, it looked like a rock.

Personally, I'm leaning toward Rey being his daughter and, as jfk said, the grave being his baby mama. Which would fit into why he pulled a Kenobi and abandoned his daughter on a sand planet — if he couldn't protect his lady, he probably feared he wouldn't be able to protect a baby Skywalker, so hiding her would be the best option.