(06-16-2015, 04:59 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Think someone may have mentioned it here, but I have to agree this may have been necessary to move the character on to his next stage of progression/action.  He already turned down an out from Stannis, and I don't think there was another way to move him on from Castle Black without betraying his integrity/loyalty.

You could also argue that to truly become a great leader, the one lesson Jon really has yet to learn was betrayal and abandonment.

A lesson all Starks must learn but few survive. Unlike his father & half-brother, Jon may actually get a second chance. The obvious question in regards to that possibility is "How?". We seem to have 3 scenarios to work with...

• Melisandre - In both the books and the show, the red priestess is in Castle Black at the time of Jon's death. Though there is no evidence that she has performed such an act previously, she could resurrect him as the Brotherhood without Banners' red priest, Thoros of Myr, has done numerous times with Beric Dondarion. There is a lot of evidence & coincidence pointing in this direction. In the books, Melisandre was already starting to doubt her visions about Stannis long before the imminent battle outside of Winterfell. With her faith at least somewhat shaken, she may push towards making a desperate attempt at bringing Jon back (in much the same way Thoros desperately prayed for the Lightning Lord's return the very first time he died only to be pleasantly surprised when it actually worked) for fear of missing out (again) on the likely Azor Ahai reborn.
• Ghost - In the books, all of the Stark children are wargs to varying degrees, though that is only implied for all except Bran. Jon's final word is "Ghost" and there is speculation from this last page of Jon's final POV chapter that he may have warged into Ghost before the last dagger hit its mark. In the show, there is no hint about this ability existing in Jon (or any of the Stark children besides Bran) nor the reference to his direwolf prior to his death. It seems unlikely that this ability will be introduced in a future season as it will appear as nothing more than a convenient plot device to bring back a popular character after his death.
• R+L=J - Speaking of speculation, there has been plenty to feed this theory in both the books and the show. If true, it is believed that the burning of Jon's corpse could actually serve to bring him back to life. I'm not convinced (at least in this resurrection theory, anyway). Yes, Daenerys Targaryen survived the flames of her beloved's funeral pyre, but she was alive going in. Flames did not, however, bring Aemon Targaryen back to life. Also, the R+J=L revelation seems like it would be wasted on the Night's Watch.
  

Once the how is eventually determined (IF it is, of course), the next question will be what Jon's mental state will be when he comes back. Will he be the same stubbornly loyal yet naive boy or will the man finally and thoroughly be born? Will he indeed learn from those lessons that cost so many in his family their lives? If his mindset adapts accordingly, will he go full Stannis by becoming a slave to his duty or will he be able to find some happy medium between the stern determination of Stannis and the noble loyalty of Ned Stark?

Furthermore, what role, if any, will Melisandre play in Jon's destiny regardless of how he returns? Even if she is the reason for his resurrection and barring a significant change in his demeanor, it is unlikely he would be willing to be a party to many of her mysterious tactics, especially if Davos rallies to his side as well. Then again, if Melisandre truly does begin to put greater faith in Jon being Azor Ahai reborn, maybe she comes to learn the error of her ways and bends to Jon's will instead of the other way around.

I agree with most that believe Jon's story does not end at the hands of those who simply do not truly understand the immense threat that Jon is working so hard to help everyone survive. The show, moreso than the books, seems to support that. The interaction between the Night's King and Jon Snow at Hardhome (even at a distance) was chilling in its perceived significance. Jon is the only leader in Westeros, Essos & the entire world who truly knows the risk that lies ahead for all mankind. I simply cannot fathom that it has been for naught.

http://www.cinemablend.com/television/Game-Thrones-Season-6-Why-George-R-R-Martin-Won-t-Write-An-Episode-71005.html

Good stuff about book & season 6 stuff. Pretty much confirmed that Winds will be out before March when season 6 starts. (sorry if this is common knowledge as I didnt know for sure).

(06-16-2015, 09:02 PM)Millhouse Wrote: In the show Jon went up North to that village (that got massacred by the Whites), but didnt have Ghost with him as they went by ship to get there. Once again we have to assume (thanks writers) that Ghost was out doing his thing on this side of the wall, and wasnt there when Jon returned.

Personally if I was a writer, I would have had Jon send Ghost with Sam when he left to go to Oldetown, at least for most of the way for protection. That would have easily explained that and made a ton of sense.

I didn't understand sending Sam and baby Sam and Sam's baby momma off with no protection. 

As for Ghost...was he one of the two that showed up when Sam was getting pummeled?

(06-16-2015, 09:12 PM)Millhouse Wrote: When it comes to Jon, those that read books have been at this cliffhanger for years now. All evidence from the books, show, and Martin himself suggests Jon will not remain dead for long. Also if he would actually be dead forever, Martin will alienate much of the fanbase, and will get slammed review wise. 

Yeah. Not being a reader of the books, i was about ready to punch Martin in the face, through the TV Sunday night. Fortunately, i was able to come here and get some answers. 

(06-16-2015, 10:06 PM)34inXXIII Wrote: A lesson all Starks must learn but few survive. Unlike his father & half-brother, Jon may actually get a second chance. The obvious question in regards to that possibility is "How?". We seem to have 3 scenarios to work with...

• Melisandre - In both the books and the show, the red priestess is in Castle Black at the time of Jon's death. Though there is no evidence that she has performed such an act previously, she could resurrect him as the Brotherhood without Banners' red priest, Thoros of Myr, has done numerous times with Beric Dondarion. There is a lot of evidence & coincidence pointing in this direction. In the books, Melisandre was already starting to doubt her visions about Stannis long before the imminent battle outside of Winterfell. With her faith at least somewhat shaken, she may push towards making a desperate attempt at bringing Jon back (in much the same way Thoros desperately prayed for the Lightning Lord's return the very first time he died only to be pleasantly surprised when it actually worked) for fear of missing out (again) on the likely Azor Ahai reborn.
• Ghost - In the books, all of the Stark children are wargs to varying degrees, though that is only implied for all except Bran. Jon's final word is "Ghost" and there is speculation from this last page of Jon's final POV chapter that he may have warged into Ghost before the last dagger hit its mark. In the show, there is no hint about this ability existing in Jon (or any of the Stark children besides Bran) nor the reference to his direwolf prior to his death. It seems unlikely that this ability will be introduced in a future season as it will appear as nothing more than a convenient plot device to bring back a popular character after his death.
• R+L=J - Speaking of speculation, there has been plenty to feed this theory in both the books and the show. If true, it is believed that the burning of Jon's corpse could actually serve to bring him back to life. I'm not convinced (at least in this resurrection theory, anyway). Yes, Daenerys Targaryen survived the flames of her beloved's funeral pyre, but she was alive going in. Flames did not, however, bring Aemon Targaryen back to life. Also, the R+J=L revelation seems like it would be wasted on the Night's Watch.
  

Once the how is eventually determined (IF it is, of course), the next question will be what Jon's mental state will be when he comes back. Will he be the same stubbornly loyal yet naive boy or will the man finally and thoroughly be born? Will he indeed learn from those lessons that cost so many in his family their lives? If his mindset adapts accordingly, will he go full Stannis by becoming a slave to his duty or will he be able to find some happy medium between the stern determination of Stannis and the noble loyalty of Ned Stark?

Furthermore, what role, if any, will Melisandre play in Jon's destiny regardless of how he returns? Even if she is the reason for his resurrection and barring a significant change in his demeanor, it is unlikely he would be willing to be a party to many of her mysterious tactics, especially if Davos rallies to his side as well. Then again, if Melisandre truly does begin to put greater faith in Jon being Azor Ahai reborn, maybe she comes to learn the error of her ways and bends to Jon's will instead of the other way around.

I agree with most that believe Jon's story does not end at the hands of those who simply do not truly understand the immense threat that Jon is working so hard to help everyone survive. The show, moreso than the books, seems to support that. The interaction between the Night's King and Jon Snow at Hardhome (even at a distance) was chilling in its perceived significance. Jon is the only leader in Westeros, Essos & the entire world who truly knows the risk that lies ahead for all mankind. I simply cannot fathom that it has been for naught.

I'm of the 'Melisandre Theory', for the HBO version at least. In a show that has made a lot of cuts, cutting the Thoros/Dondarion substory would have made sense. Particularly since Brothers without Borders has not been mentioned out side of that. I suspect they left that bit in just to show that resurrection can work in this world (outside of Lannister "Franken-resurrection").

I bet Bronn saves Myrcella since he is on the boat with Jaime. I bet he either has some antidote left, or was given some by the sand snake who showed him her boobs and made him say she was the most beautiful girl in the world.

I honestly have no idea what most of you are talking about. A warg? Brother's Without Banners? I feel like a woman watching football.

(06-17-2015, 11:01 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I honestly have no idea what most of you are talking about. A warg? Brother's Without Banners? I feel like a woman watching football.

A Warg = Someone with the ability to see thru the eyes of an animal like bran and his wolf.. Or SixSkins and his animals more than that they can slip into their animals skin and experience/control the animal.

Brothers without banners... This group came into existance when Robert Baratheon Sent the Lightening lord and a group of of soldiers to bring the mountain to justice for his crimes in the riverlands. the lightening lord met his first death when he confronted the mountain. and was brought back by thoros the red drunken priest famous for fighting with a sword on fire.

they became the brotherhood without banners when Robert was killed. as they still serve robert they are kinda an small army without a king trying to protect the innocents of the riverlands during the turmoil. This is the group that incounters Arya and the Hound at one point (the hound giving the Lightening lord his 5th death i believe.)

they took the hounds price money for prince jeoffreys tourney. and then he stole away with arya to sell her back to her family at the twins.

(06-17-2015, 01:31 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Yeah. Not being a reader of the books, i was about ready to punch Martin in the face, through the TV Sunday night. Fortunately, i was able to come here and get some answers. 

being a reader of the books he pisses you off the same but makes up for it here and there.

but Martin himself is not happy with the directors of the show right now.

(06-17-2015, 11:49 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: A Warg = Someone with the ability to see thru the eyes of an animal like bran and his wolf.. Or SixSkins and his animals more than that they can slip into their animals skin and experience/control the animal.

Brothers without banners...  This group came into existance when Robert Baratheon Sent the Lightening lord and a group of of soldiers to bring the mountain to justice for his crimes in the riverlands.     the lightening lord met his first death when he confronted the mountain.  and was brought back by thoros the red drunken priest famous for fighting with a sword on fire.

they became the brotherhood without banners when Robert was killed.  as they still serve robert they are kinda an small army without a king trying to protect the innocents of the riverlands during the turmoil.  This is the group that incounters Arya and the Hound at one point (the hound giving the Lightening lord his 5th death i believe.)  

they took the hounds price money for prince jeoffreys tourney. and then he stole away with arya to sell her back to her family at the twins.

Are these things I should have picked up on just watching the show?  I do know the one sister in that  place Jamie just was has a killer rack.  Hair is a little short for me, but I could make it work.

(06-17-2015, 03:15 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Are these things I should have picked up on just watching the show?  I do know the one sister in that  place Jamie just was has a killer rack.  Hair is a little short for me, but I could make it work.

Im pretty sure in the Show Arya and Gentry at least run into the Brotherhood without banners. and the hound vs the lightening lord i believe happened in like season 3

(06-16-2015, 10:06 PM)34inXXIII Wrote: A lesson all Starks must learn but few survive. Unlike his father & half-brother, Jon may actually get a second chance. The obvious question in regards to that possibility is "How?". We seem to have 3 scenarios to work with...

• Melisandre - In both the books and the show, the red priestess is in Castle Black at the time of Jon's death. Though there is no evidence that she has performed such an act previously, she could resurrect him as the Brotherhood without Banners' red priest, Thoros of Myr, has done numerous times with Beric Dondarion. There is a lot of evidence & coincidence pointing in this direction. In the books, Melisandre was already starting to doubt her visions about Stannis long before the imminent battle outside of Winterfell. With her faith at least somewhat shaken, she may push towards making a desperate attempt at bringing Jon back (in much the same way Thoros desperately prayed for the Lightning Lord's return the very first time he died only to be pleasantly surprised when it actually worked) for fear of missing out (again) on the likely Azor Ahai reborn.
• Ghost - In the books, all of the Stark children are wargs to varying degrees, though that is only implied for all except Bran. Jon's final word is "Ghost" and there is speculation from this last page of Jon's final POV chapter that he may have warged into Ghost before the last dagger hit its mark. In the show, there is no hint about this ability existing in Jon (or any of the Stark children besides Bran) nor the reference to his direwolf prior to his death. It seems unlikely that this ability will be introduced in a future season as it will appear as nothing more than a convenient plot device to bring back a popular character after his death.
• R+L=J - Speaking of speculation, there has been plenty to feed this theory in both the books and the show. If true, it is believed that the burning of Jon's corpse could actually serve to bring him back to life. I'm not convinced (at least in this resurrection theory, anyway). Yes, Daenerys Targaryen survived the flames of her beloved's funeral pyre, but she was alive going in. Flames did not, however, bring Aemon Targaryen back to life. Also, the R+J=L revelation seems like it would be wasted on the Night's Watch.
  

Once the how is eventually determined (IF it is, of course), the next question will be what Jon's mental state will be when he comes back. Will he be the same stubbornly loyal yet naive boy or will the man finally and thoroughly be born? Will he indeed learn from those lessons that cost so many in his family their lives? If his mindset adapts accordingly, will he go full Stannis by becoming a slave to his duty or will he be able to find some happy medium between the stern determination of Stannis and the noble loyalty of Ned Stark?

Furthermore, what role, if any, will Melisandre play in Jon's destiny regardless of how he returns? Even if she is the reason for his resurrection and barring a significant change in his demeanor, it is unlikely he would be willing to be a party to many of her mysterious tactics, especially if Davos rallies to his side as well. Then again, if Melisandre truly does begin to put greater faith in Jon being Azor Ahai reborn, maybe she comes to learn the error of her ways and bends to Jon's will instead of the other way around.

I agree with most that believe Jon's story does not end at the hands of those who simply do not truly understand the immense threat that Jon is working so hard to help everyone survive. The show, moreso than the books, seems to support that. The interaction between the Night's King and Jon Snow at Hardhome (even at a distance) was chilling in its perceived significance. Jon is the only leader in Westeros, Essos & the entire world who truly knows the risk that lies ahead for all mankind. I simply cannot fathom that it has been for naught.

I think Melisandre brings Jon back to life. The whole point of the scene in the last episode showing her going back to the Nights Watch is foreshadowing of her being there to revive him. (There was no point in that scene if it wasn't the case) I also don't  think we won't see any result of this resurrection in a grand scene but rather him showing up in an important scene and later finding out he was resurrected by Melisandre and ending his commitment with the night Watch because he technically died, and opening up the next chapter in this characters journey.

(06-17-2015, 04:52 PM)GodFather Wrote: I think Melisandre brings Jon back to life. The whole point of the scene in the last episode showing her going back to the Nights Watch is foreshadowing of her being there to revive him. (There was no point in that scene if it wasn't the case) I also don't  think we won't see any result of this resurrection in a grand scene but rather him showing up in an important scene and later finding out he was resurrected by Melisandre and ending his commitment with the night Watch because he technically died, and opening up the next chapter in this characters journey.

I'm curious as to what sort of burial/funeral a traitor gets, if it gets that far.  And what might happen the longer it goes before Melissandre is able to revive him (as it relates to his memories and what makes Jon who he is).

The Night's Watch is barely a speed bump for the Walkers at this point with some 50 guys left.  I think Jon is going to become the Wildling King...which will provide him with a [small] army to go do something, most likely marching on Winterfell.

Also, sending Sam away to become a Maester also sets it up conveniently for him to be safe and later rejoin Jon

(06-17-2015, 05:24 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: I'm curious as to what sort of burial/funeral a traitor gets, if it gets that far.  And what might happen the longer it goes before Melissandre is able to revive him (as it relates to his memories and what makes Jon who he is).

The Night's Watch is barely a speed bump for the Walkers at this point with some 50 guys left.  I think Jon is going to become the Wildling King...which will provide him with a [small] army to go do something, most likely marching on Winterfell.

Also, sending Sam away to become a Maester also sets it up conveniently for him to be safe and later rejoin Jon

the 700 foot tall wall is one hell of a speed bump and has spells woven into it to prevent the WW's from passing thru or over. so they will need to find a way around or bring the wall down.

The sending of sam away was for a certain purpose. Stannis was looking for kingly blood. so he sent sam away with Amon who was a Targ and at one point heir. and the son of Mance Rayder the King beyond the wall. to remove the kingly blood stannis sought from his reach.. And secondly cause amon was 100+ years old Sam is earning his chains to me the next Measter of the Nights Watch. more than anything.

As far as jons funeral right now they are burning all the dead (to prevent them from rising again) so right now id say hes thrown on a fire.

(06-17-2015, 05:29 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: the 700 foot tall wall is one hell of a speed bump and has spells woven into it to prevent the WW's from passing thru or over.   so they will need to find a way around or bring the wall down.

Ahhhh.  I don't think that has been mentioned in the show.  But, presumably, this winter is going to spread far and wide enough for the WW's to just go around the wall.

They are in for a bit of surprise when they try to burn Jon's body, eh.

As for Melisandre raising him, I think HBO will show it. It will probably involve some ritual like her stripping naked and humping his dead body or something. That is how HBO like it.

(06-17-2015, 05:40 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Ahhhh.  I don't think that has been mentioned in the show.  But, presumably, this winter is going to spread far and wide enough for the WW's to just go around the wall.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/The_Wall

I cant remember how much was mentioned in the show, but good stuff here on the Wall from both show & movie in general including maps further don you go.

On a side note, I can get lost reading stuff in their for hours, but at the book wikia site http://awoiaf.westeros.org/. This one is good too for the show.

(06-17-2015, 05:40 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Ahhhh.  I don't think that has been mentioned in the show.  But, presumably, this winter is going to spread far and wide enough for the WW's to just go around the wall.

Maybe they'll pull a World War Z and have the dead start climbing on top of one another till they get to the top!

(06-17-2015, 10:57 PM)GodFather Wrote: Maybe they'll pull a World War Z and have the dead start climbing on top of one another till they get to the top!

Or maybe catapult over the wall - they did jump off that cliff and then just get up and start running.

BUMP for SEASON 6

New season starts tonight, and of course the book isnt out yet. Screw it, I'm watching before the book cause gawd knows when that will happen, which is ridiculous it has taken this long. My prediction is that at some point Jon Snow gets resurrected by Melisandre, whether tonight or at some point this season. If he does remain dead and his storyline is finished, then what a colossal failure of storytelling lol, so yeah he will be back. Cant wait to see Tyrion & Varys working together while Daenarys is captured. And of course how she will either escape, destroy them all with her kids, or become ruler of them and bolseter her army for an eventual invasion of Westeros. Got Sansa, Arya, Littlefinger, and of course the Lannisters getting revenge on couple of their enemies. Cant wait for what I think will be the best season to date.