(06-23-2015, 04:32 PM)OSUfan Wrote: Alabama-

2009 - Greg McElroy
1992 - Jay Barker
1979 - Steadman Shealy
1978 - Jeff Rutledge
1977 - Jeff Rutledge
1975 - Richard Todd
1973 - Gary Rutledge

SEC -

2009 - Greg McElroy
2008 - Tim Tebow
2007 - Matt Flynn
2006 - Chris Leake
2003 - Matt Mauck
1998 - Peyton Manning
1996 - Doug Johnson
1993 - Stan White
1992 - Jay Barker
1984 - Kerwin Bell
1983 - Pat Washington
1980 - Buck Belue
1979 - Steadman Shealy
1978 - Jeff Rutledge
1977 - Jeff Rutledge
1977 - Richard Todd

Not sure if the entire being a SEC and/or Alabama QB with National Championships makes the resume that stellar do you?

Why didn't you keep going with your list? You left off Ken Stabler, Joe Namath and Bart Starr.

Anyways, using your logic we should've never drafted a QB from TCU, they haven't produced an NFL caliber QB since the 40's.

Seriously, you can't hold a team's history against a QB, otherwise, the NFL would only draft from Stanford, Michigan, Oregon, Miami, FL, Notre Dame, USC, Cal and Purdue.

not only that, but aren't you the guy that said that Jordan Palmer (or was it Dan LeFevour) that should be our starter?

With all of that said, I don't think you are a good person to be evaluating our QB situation.

Whether you like it or not, McCarron's better than you want to admit.

I will repeat myself for the 100th time. The coach isn't very good but that doesn't excuse Dalton's poor play. Can there be a world in which both the coach and QB aren't very good and need to be replaced because that's the world I live in and most objective NFL fans do as well.

I've seen enough of Dalton (with multiple coordinators) to understand that regardless of coach he just isn't a very good QB. He's got mediocre talent and is as erratic as any QB we've seen here. His pocket awareness goes to shambles when things go bad and his arm strength has much to be desired. In addition he throws too many interceptions. Not sure why some of you have to continue to constantly make excuses for the guy. It isn't rocket science folks........just watch the games.

(06-24-2015, 02:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Maybe so, but the old boards used to get ugly and they were pretty successful.

1. Right. CB doesn't seem to think the QB can be affected by poor coaching, apparently.

2. "Very good" isn't how I'd describe Dalton's play. 

You're missing the point. I've been told that 4 int's should've caused a team-wide collapse for the Seahawks. It didn't.

Also, what about the pair of games where Dalton only had 1 turnover?

Dalton hasn't been causing the team-wide collapse. Heck, he didn't even play against the Jets or Steelers.

I don't think you and I are disagreeing really.  I mean, Russel Wilson is actually 4-1 when he throws 2 or more INTs so his team does help him to be sure, but Dalton has 21 games where threw 2 or more INTs to his name (with an extra season played, granted) and he's 40-27-1 as a starter so he's not exactly a martyr, either (adding the playoff games into the mix).

I realize you are talking more about how the team responds, though.

(06-24-2015, 02:36 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I don't think you and I are disagreeing really.  I mean, Russel Wilson is actually 4-1 when he throws 2 or more INTs so his team does help him to be sure, but Dalton has 21 games where threw 2 or more INTs to his name (with an extra season played, granted) and he's 40-23-1 as a starter so he's not exactly a martyr, either.

I realize you are talking more about how the team responds, though.

Daltons biggest problem is our own division. His stats outside of the division is really good, and his stats against the NFC is really good too. The AFCN has been consistently the best division bar none the last 10 years. The AFCN has won 3 out of the last 10 superbowls (the most in the league) and 19 playoff teams in the last 10 years (the most in the league).

(06-24-2015, 03:00 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Daltons biggest problem is our own division. His stats outside of the division is really good, and his stats against the NFC is really good too. The AFCN has been consistently the best division bar none the last 10 years. The AFCN has won 3 out of the last 10 superbowls (the most in the league) and 19 playoff teams in the last 10 years (the most in the league).

Dalton has been here for 4 years, so let's toss out 2004-2010.  I'm not saying the AFC North isn't one of, if not the best division for this stretch but let's not intentionally skew the data.

(06-24-2015, 02:16 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Why didn't you keep going with your list? You left off Ken Stabler, Joe Namath and Bart Starr.

Anyways, using your logic we should've never drafted a QB from TCU, they haven't produced an NFL caliber QB since the 40's.

Seriously, you can't hold a team's history against a QB, otherwise, the NFL would only draft from Stanford, Michigan, Oregon, Miami, FL, Notre Dame, USC, Cal and Purdue.

not only that, but aren't you the guy that said that Jordan Palmer (or was it Dan LeFevour) that should be our starter?

With all of that said, I don't think you are a good person to be evaluating our QB situation.

Whether you like it or not, McCarron's better than you want to admit.

I'm not sure how good McCarron can be, but I'm definitely paying attention to him now. The shoulder issue seems to have dropped him a couple rounds. From what I've read, he's the assertive type who could turn into a good leader. The coaches said they were impressed with his pocket presence, for what that's worth.

I honestly can't wait to see him in action during preseason. I seriously doubt the coaches will do anything that would stir up a QB controversy, but if Dalton has a poor year I could see McCarron as a serious candidate to start in 2016.

(06-24-2015, 03:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm not sure how good McCarron can be, but I'm definitely paying attention to him now. The shoulder issue seems to have dropped him a couple rounds. From what I've read, he's the assertive type who could turn into a good leader. The coaches said they were impressed with his pocket presence, for what that's worth.

I honestly can't wait to see him in action during preseason. I seriously doubt the coaches will do anything that would stir up a QB controversy, but if Dalton has a poor year I could see McCarron as a serious candidate to start in 2016.

I can understand pumping the breaks with McCarron until we actually see him play, but some of the reasons are absolutely bat-shit crazy.

McCarron probably isn't good because other Alabama QBs in the past weren't that good? lolwat

(06-24-2015, 03:08 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Dalton has been here for 4 years, so let's toss out 2004-2010.  I'm not saying the AFC North isn't one of, if not the best division for this stretch but let's not intentionally skew the data.

Ok from 2011-2014 the AFCN has had 10 playoff teams (the most in the NFL) and has won a SB (tied for 1st in the NFL). They still look like the best division for those 4 years too.

(06-23-2015, 04:32 PM)OSUfan Wrote: Alabama-

2009 - Greg McElroy
1992 - Jay Barker
1979 - Steadman Shealy
1978 - Jeff Rutledge
1977 - Jeff Rutledge
1975 - Richard Todd
1973 - Gary Rutledge

SEC -

2009 - Greg McElroy
2008 - Tim Tebow
2007 - Matt Flynn
2006 - Chris Leake
2003 - Matt Mauck
1998 - Peyton Manning
1996 - Doug Johnson
1993 - Stan White
1992 - Jay Barker
1984 - Kerwin Bell
1983 - Pat Washington
1980 - Buck Belue
1979 - Steadman Shealy
1978 - Jeff Rutledge
1977 - Jeff Rutledge
1977 - Richard Todd

Not sure if the entire being a SEC and/or Alabama QB with National Championships makes the resume that stellar do you?

Tee Martin was the QB when UT won their title. Peyton could never beat Spurrier.

I wish McCarron had a year with Kiffin at OC. Might have a better idea what he can do if that happened.

(06-24-2015, 02:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Maybe so, but the old boards used to get ugly and they were pretty successful.

Oh, I meant no offense.  The old board was way worse, I was just making a joke at those arguing back and forth.  Just feels like the good ole days.

(06-24-2015, 03:15 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Ok from 2011-2014 the AFCN has had 10 playoff teams (the most in the NFL) and has won a SB (tied for 1st in the NFL). They still look like the best division for those 4 years too.

I wasn't disagreeing, I was simply reminding you to use pertinent data when making a point.

(06-24-2015, 03:15 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I can understand pumping the breaks with McCarron until we actually see him play, but some of the reasons are absolutely bat-shit crazy.

McCarron probably isn't good because other Alabama QBs in the past weren't that good? lolwat

McCarron isn't good because a Dan McGwire wasn't good.  QB with Mc in the last name?  Get outta here.  And no, Donovan McFlabb wasn't good.

(06-24-2015, 03:41 PM)Nately120 Wrote: McCarron isn't good because a Dan McGwire wasn't good.  QB with Mc in the last name?  Get outta here.  And no, Donovan McFlabb wasn't good.

I just don't understand why people resort to absolutely AWFUL arguments when they have plenty of good ones at their disposal. There are definitely reasons to be concerned with AJM, but "Alabama QBs usually aren't elite in the NFL" is 100% not one of the better points to bring up.

The Bengals haven't had a great receiving TE in how long? Does that mean we should just forget about Tyler Eifert? I mean, he's going to be mediocre or worse since most of our others were, right?

(06-24-2015, 02:36 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I don't think you and I are disagreeing really.  I mean, Russel Wilson is actually 4-1 when he throws 2 or more INTs so his team does help him to be sure, but Dalton has 21 games where threw 2 or more INTs to his name (with an extra season played, granted) and he's 40-27-1 as a starter so he's not exactly a martyr, either (adding the playoff games into the mix).

I realize you are talking more about how the team responds, though.

Exactly. My point is that a couple turnovers (sometimes just one) shouldn't be an excuse for a team-wide collapse. IE the team-wide collapse is more of a coaching problem and not a QB problem. We've obviously had many problems in the playoffs. Blaming all of it on Dalton is silly, especially when we see the same themes every year, no matter how many turnovers Dalton has, or even before he was on the team:

- can't stop the run
- can't pressure the opposing QB or defend the pass well
- can't run the ball efficiently and/or stick with the run
- we've been outscored 84-13 in the 2nd half of the six playoff games
- totally inefficient passing offense (just so no one thinks I'm leaving Dalton out)

When there are this many problems, I set my sights on the head coach. The QB is just a player, who like any other player, can be hurt by poor coaching/planning/schemes. Fwiw, Carson Palmer was no better in prime time (72 passer rating) than Dalton, but since he left, his prime time passer rating has skyrocketed to 95. He was also terrible in the Jets playoff game.

I have no bias to defend Dalton. If we can improve the position, great. I wanted Rivers when many folks were saying he's too old. I just don't see how people can single Dalton out as a choke artist when our entire team has choked in the same situations for 12 years now. 

(06-24-2015, 03:47 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Exactly. My point is that a couple turnovers (sometimes just one) shouldn't be an excuse for a team-wide collapse. IE the team-wide collapse is more of a coaching problem and not a QB problem. We've obviously had many problems in the playoffs. Blaming all of it on Dalton is silly, especially when we see the same themes every year, no matter how many turnovers Dalton has, or even before he was on the team:

- can't stop the run
- can't pressure the opposing QB or defend the pass well
- can't run the ball efficiently and/or stick with the run
- we've been outscored 84-13 in the 2nd half of the six playoff games
- totally inefficient passing offense (just so no one thinks I'm leaving Dalton out)

When there are this many problems, I set my sights on the head coach. The QB is just a player, who like any other player, can be hurt by poor coaching/planning/schemes. Fwiw, Carson Palmer was no better in prime time (72 passer rating) than Dalton, but since he left, his prime time passer rating has skyrocketed to 95. He was also terrible in the Jets playoff game.

I have no bias to defend Dalton. If we can improve the position, great. I wanted Rivers when many folks were saying he's too old. I just don't see how people can single Dalton out as a choke artist when our entire team has choked in the same situations for 12 years now. 

You forgot poor offensive line play. They have allowed 4 sacks in each playoff game which is atrocious.

(06-24-2015, 03:15 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I can understand pumping the breaks with McCarron until we actually see him play, but some of the reasons are absolutely bat-shit crazy.

McCarron probably isn't good because other Alabama QBs in the past weren't that good? lolwat

Yeah I agree. Alabama's past has nothing to do with McCarron. AJ is just a better prospect than McElroy and most of the guys that have come from that program. 

Mike M made a good point about how most schools don't constantly churn out top QB prospects. How many great Auburn QB's came out before Cam? How many great Tennessee QB's has there been outside of Peyton? Has Ole Miss produced any good NFL QB's outside of Eli? I could go on, but I shouldn't have to. Alabama's history has nothing to do with McCarron.

(06-24-2015, 12:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If I knew than answer then I would be running an NFL team.

What I do know is that we have good coaches and good players.  We just don't have elite coaches or many elite players.

The people who claim that we can win by just replacing coaches and QBs always refuse to give specific names of specific QBs or coaches we could bring in that would fix everything.  They cry for change, but when you look at the reality of the situation they don't really have any more answers than I do.  They refuse to acknowledge that just constantly changing coaches and QBs is not guaranteed to fix anything.

Zimmer was certainly an elite coach. Bratkowski was an elite OC back in the day. Hue is getting recognition for being a good OC after one season, and I've seen numerous people talk about how great Jay Gruden did here. 3 of those 4 coordinators were/became head coaches.

Elite players? Geno Atkins and Adam Jones have been All-Pro players here. Green, Whitworth, and Burfict have been Second Team All Pros. Since 2011, this team has sent 7 different players to the Pro Bowl.

Put this into perspective: Green Bay has had Aaron Rodgers, Charles Woodson, and John Kuhn be All-Pro players since 2011. Denver had Peyotn Manning, Louis Vasquez, and Von Miller as All-Pro players. The Colts had Pat McAfee and Robert Mathis as All-Pro players. The Texans have had J.J. Watt and Duane Brown as All Pro Players. San Diego Chargers have only had Eric Weddle as an All-Pro player.

So I mentioned the those two teams, Colts and Texans. Both only had 2 All-Pro players since 2011 just like the Bengals. bengals had 1 more than the Chargers. The Bengals lost to all 4 of those teams.

So if it's not because they have more elite players, would you say that Gary Kubiak, Chuck Pagano, and Norv Turner are better head coaches than Marvin Lewis?

(06-24-2015, 03:15 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I can understand pumping the breaks with McCarron until we actually see him play, but some of the reasons are absolutely bat-shit crazy.

McCarron probably isn't good because other Alabama QBs in the past weren't that good? lolwat

I just wasn't high on him coming into the draft and I still stand by that. Also, people forget that we didn't know about the shoulder injury in full detail until he was in camp and so on.

I just didn't like his tape and only view him as a backup. If he surpasses my expectations, then awesome. But I'm not going to jump on a hype train in June. His game tape tells a very different story.

(06-24-2015, 04:08 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: I just wasn't high on him coming into the draft and I still stand by that. Also, people forget that we didn't know about the shoulder injury in full detail until he was in camp and so on.

I just didn't like his tape and only view him as a backup. If he surpasses my expectations, then awesome. But I'm not going to jump on a hype train in June. His game tape tells a very different story.

Oh I have no problem with people not boarding the hype train just yet, but not for the reasoning of "Alabama QBs usually aren't very good in the NFL". That's just silly.

(06-24-2015, 04:04 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Bratkowski was an elite OC back in the day.

What? My 10 year old cousin could probably be as good of an OC as Bratkoeski. All he would have to do is call a run play the first few downs then pass the ball on 3rd downs.