(06-24-2015, 04:12 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: What? My 10 year old cousin could probably be as good of an OC as Bratkoeski. All he would have to do is call a run play the first few downs then pass the ball on 3rd downs.

Are you trying to tell me the old "run, run, incompletion, punt" isn't the most elite strategy in NFL history?

(06-24-2015, 04:04 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Bratkowski was an elite OC back in the day.

Meh, not sure about this one.  We only made the playoffs in 2005 and 2009 when a lot of our success was contingent on Palmer calling plays in either the no-huddle or the 2-minute drill.  Call me skeptical, is all.

(06-24-2015, 04:12 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: What? My 10 year old cousin could probably be as good of an OC as Bratkoeski. All he would have to do is call a run play the first few downs then pass the ball on 3rd downs.

Don't underestimate the Brat playbook.

(06-24-2015, 04:04 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Zimmer was certainly an elite coach. Bratkowski was an elite OC back in the day. Hue is getting recognition for being a good OC after one season, and I've seen numerous people talk about how great Jay Gruden did here. 3 of those 4 coordinators were/became head coaches.

Elite players? Geno Atkins and Adam Jones have been All-Pro players here. Green, Whitworth, and Burfict have been Second Team All Pros. Since 2011, this team has sent 7 different players to the Pro Bowl.

Put this into perspective: Green Bay has had Aaron Rodgers, Charles Woodson, and John Kuhn be All-Pro players since 2011. Denver had Peyotn Manning, Louis Vasquez, and Von Miller as All-Pro players. The Colts had Pat McAfee and Robert Mathis as All-Pro players. The Texans have had J.J. Watt and Duane Brown as All Pro Players. San Diego Chargers have only had Eric Weddle as an All-Pro player.

So I mentioned the those two teams, Colts and Texans. Both only had 2 All-Pro players since 2011 just like the Bengals. bengals had 1 more than the Chargers. The Bengals lost to all 4 of those teams.

So if it's not because they have more elite players, would you say that Gary Kubiak, Chuck Pagano, and Norv Turner are better head coaches than Marvin Lewis?

Green Bay has Jordy Nelson too (He's just as good as Green), and Cobb (who's better than any of our WRs not named Green), and they have had Lacy tear it up the past few years. Their defense wasn't amazing, but Clay Matthews is a beast too. Denver had Demaryius Thomas (who's better than Green IMO), and Julius Thomas (who IMO is the 2nd best TE in the league), and they had Emmanuel Sanders who is better than anyone not named Green on our team. Denver also had Talib, and DeMarcus Ware who are both some of the best in their positions in the league. Denver even had one of the best OLs in the league the last few years. The Colts had Reggie Wayne who is a great WR, and they have T.Y. Hilton who is a great WR, and Fleener who is a underrated TE. The Chargers don't have a lot of elite players, but they have a lot of above average players (Allen, Gates, Woodhead, ). Rivers is IMO one of the best QBs in the league too.

(06-24-2015, 05:16 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Green Bay has Jordy Nelson too (He's just as good as Green), and Cobb (who's better than any of our WRs not named Green), and they have had Lacy tear it up the past few years. Their defense wasn't amazing, but Clay Matthews is a beast too. Denver had Demaryius Thomas (who's better than Green IMO), and Julius Thomas (who IMO is the 2nd best TE in the league), and they had Emmanuel Sanders who is better than anyone not named Green on our team. Denver also had Talib, and DeMarcus Ware who are both some of the best in their positions in the league. Denver even had one of the best OLs in the league the last few years. The Colts had Reggie Wayne who is a great WR, and they have T.Y. Hilton who is a great WR, and Fleener who is a underrated TE. The Chargers don't have a lot of elite players, but they have a lot of above average players (Allen, Gates, Woodhead, ). Rivers is IMO one of the best QBs in the league too.

I bet a lot of those WRs being "just as good as Green" has nothing to do with elite QBs throwing them the ball. Jordy Nelson and Randall Cobb aren't putting up those numbers with a lesser QB throwing to them.

That's why I really hate when people only use statistics to compare WRs. Sure, terrible WRs don't get the separation to compile big stats, but if you throw to any decent WR 150 times, he's surely going to have big numbers at the end of the year. Golden Tate isn't a top 10 receiver, Harry Douglas isn't a legitimate #1, and Jordy Nelson isn't as good as A.J. Green. Some guys compile stats because they're not bad receivers and they get a ton of looks for one reason or another.

(06-24-2015, 03:41 PM)Nately120 Wrote: McCarron isn't good because a Dan McGwire wasn't good.  QB with Mc in the last name?  Get outta here.  And no, Donovan McFlabb wasn't good.

 

(06-24-2015, 04:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Don't underestimate the Brat playbook.

I'm guessing the shovel pass is the first audible ?

(06-24-2015, 02:16 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Why didn't you keep going with your list? You left off Ken Stabler, Joe Namath and Bart Starr.

Anyways, using your logic we should've never drafted a QB from TCU, they haven't produced an NFL caliber QB since the 40's.

Seriously, you can't hold a team's history against a QB, otherwise, the NFL would only draft from Stanford, Michigan, Oregon, Miami, FL, Notre Dame, USC, Cal and Purdue.

not only that, but aren't you the guy that said that Jordan Palmer (or was it Dan LeFevour) that should be our starter?

With all of that said, I don't think you are a good person to be evaluating our QB situation.

Whether you like it or not, McCarron's better than you want to admit.

Pretty sure you were not following the gist. Had nothing to do with Alabama QBs as much as it had to do with the resume that you  seem to find important and that is to include the SEC hype. Getting National Championships at a school that stays as stacked at pretty much every position obviously does not require an outstanding QB.

(06-24-2015, 02:18 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I will repeat myself for the 100th time. The coach isn't very good but that doesn't excuse Dalton's poor play. Can there be a world in which both the coach and QB aren't very good and need to be replaced because that's the world I live in and most objective NFL fans do as well.  

I've seen enough of Dalton (with multiple coordinators) to understand that regardless of coach he just isn't a very good QB.  He's got mediocre talent and is as erratic as any QB we've seen here. His pocket awareness goes to shambles when things go bad and his arm strength has much to be desired. In addition he throws too many interceptions. Not sure why some of you have to continue to constantly make excuses for the guy. It isn't rocket science folks........just watch the games.

Yes MULTIPLE makes your point much more compelling than stating 2..............

(06-24-2015, 03:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm not sure how good McCarron can be, but I'm definitely paying attention to him now. The shoulder issue seems to have dropped him a couple rounds. From what I've read, he's the assertive type who could turn into a good leader. The coaches said they were impressed with his pocket presence, for what that's worth.

I honestly can't wait to see him in action during preseason. I seriously doubt the coaches will do anything that would stir up a QB controversy, but if Dalton has a poor year I could see McCarron as a serious candidate to start in 2016.

Pocket presence cannot be judged until he has 300 pounders bearing down on him with a full head of steam that are actually allowed to tattoo his ass...........

(06-24-2015, 03:15 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I can understand pumping the breaks with McCarron until we actually see him play, but some of the reasons are absolutely bat-shit crazy.

McCarron probably isn't good because other Alabama QBs in the past weren't that good? lolwat

McCarron should not be judged by other Alabama QBs just as you cannot judge him by National Championships won in the collegiate ranks yet many seem to consistently offer those up along with being in the SEC as a stunning resume now don't they?

(06-24-2015, 05:45 AM)OSUfan Wrote: Hold the press.

Did you or did you not chastise another poster for suggesting that the majority of blame for the teams postseason lack of success lies with the head coach?

Then here we go again..........if you do not completely agree with CB then you are not objective.

Andy has not shined in the postseason. However, to state he is not very good is not accurate either. He has been the QB for a team that has amassed 40 regular season wins in 4 seasons and please do not even start the ignorant winning in spite of. He has been the QB of a team that have won against the greats like Manning, Brees, Rodgers, and Brady.

Does he need to show more consistency? Yes he absolutely does. Does he need to show an ability to shine in the postseason to remain the starting QB? Yes he does.

(06-24-2015, 08:15 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Which position does Andy play on defense?

I'm up for the discussion if you want to discuss the different defenses that Andy has played great against, but let's immediately stop with the bullshit of bringing up that "Andy isn't very good" gets debunked because our defenses stopped elite QBs in the past. Sort of silly, isn't it?

You usually don't win 40 games in 4 years with a terrible QB, but we all know that Andy isn't terrible. The TEAM winning 40 games doesn't automatically make the QB a good one though. I don't think calling Andy bad is fair, but neither is calling him good. I don't think saying "Andy isn't a very good QB" is off by much, especially not off by enough to go off on a tangent bringing up how it's untrue since the defense has sometimes stopped good QBs around the league. That is flat out illogical to come to that conclusion.

(06-24-2015, 09:13 AM)spazz70 Wrote: But the QB losing 4 playoff games makes him a bad QB..  

(06-24-2015, 09:53 AM)djs7685 Wrote: No, the QB playing poorly in the playoff games makes him need to play better in the playoffs.

I'm not a fan of putting wins OR losses on one specific player. I think it's stupid when people put a W/L record on a QB. Football is a team sport more so than any of the other "popular" ones. LeBron can single-handedly take over a game, Corey Crawford and Johnny Cueto can pitch a shutout, but at the end of the day Andy still relies on at LEAST one other player to be in position to win or lose a game.

I fully agree with people that say QB is the most important position on the field, but it's not quite like other sports where 1 guy can really dominate a game by himself. I'm not saying the other guys need 0 help, Cueto still needs guys to hit the ball, Crawford still needs guys to score goals, and LeBron still needs some help on defense and even offensively as well, but if you had to pick 1 sport where 1 single player absolutely shouldn't have a W/L record, it's American football.

Reading Comprehension..............

I did not give the wins and losses to an individual.......read my statement again.

I never stated he played defense.......read my statement again.

I stated he was the QB of a TEAM (key word there) that beat some of the greats at the QB position. He is a part of those teams is he not? And whether you like to admit it or not he had a hand in those wins it was not just the defense rather a team effort.

(06-24-2015, 04:12 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: What? My 10 year old cousin could probably be as good of an OC as Bratkoeski. All he would have to do is call a run play the first few downs then pass the ball on 3rd downs.

That's what happened later on down the line when he didn't have players that fit his scheme. That was Bratkowski's biggest struggle, implementing his playbook to fit what his players could flourish with.

(06-24-2015, 04:15 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Meh, not sure about this one.  We only made the playoffs in 2005 and 2009 when a lot of our success was contingent on Palmer calling plays in either the no-huddle or the 2-minute drill.  Call me skeptical, is all.

Bengals didn't always score in the final two minutes nor no-huddle. But it became a gameplan Bratkowski worked with Palmer.

Also, offensive ranking of bengals under Bratkowski since '02: 18th, 13th, 18th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 32nd (when things went downhill), 24th (this was in 09), and then 20th.

Bratkowski worked primarily as a coach who's offensive play-calling worked more as you set up the run by passing.

Passing offensive ranking since '02: 13th, 12th, 17th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 30th, 26th, and 13th.

Bratkowski's offenses worked early on in his career, even without Palmer. He ranked 13th or higher passing in 5 of his first 6 years. But then his offense began to stall as he wasn't really a "run-first" coordinator. He tried to be, and failed at it. Everyone remembers that. From '08-10, he just couldn't revise his offense to what the players were good at.

(06-24-2015, 05:16 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Green Bay has Jordy Nelson too (He's just as good as Green), and Cobb (who's better than any of our WRs not named Green), and they have had Lacy tear it up the past few years. Their defense wasn't amazing, but Clay Matthews is a beast too. Denver had Demaryius Thomas (who's better than Green IMO), and Julius Thomas (who IMO is the 2nd best TE in the league), and they had Emmanuel Sanders who is better than anyone not named Green on our team. Denver also had Talib, and DeMarcus Ware who are both some of the best in their positions in the league. Denver even had one of the best OLs in the league the last few years. The Colts had Reggie Wayne who is a great WR, and they have T.Y. Hilton who is a great WR, and Fleener who is a underrated TE. The Chargers don't have a lot of elite players, but they have a lot of above average players (Allen, Gates, Woodhead, ). Rivers is IMO one of the best QBs in the league too.

Green > Nelson
Jones and Sanu > Cobb
Lacy has proven to continue to be productive and consistent.
But then you have the offensive line, defensive line, and so on.

Green = Thomas. Thomas is a beast. And Sanders had a really good year, and glad. Talib and Ware I can get behind. But don't forget, Atkins is arguably the best DT in the league. We also had Burfict. The defensive line was once viewed as the best and deepest in the NFL. Our secondary was full of first round picks besides Iloka.

Fact of the matter is, the Bengals have an extremely talented roster that can go up against anybody. I was showing how 'elite' so players were on those teams by looking at All-Pros. Bengals have had All-Pro players. Also Pro-Bowl players. There is zero reason to believe that the Colts, Texans, and Colts had more 'elite' players than the Bengals do. You can discuss "really good" and so on, but when it comes to elite and All-Pro, no team really has all that many.

(06-24-2015, 08:47 PM)0wolfkaosaun Wrote: Green > Nelson
Jones and Sanu > Cobb
Lacy has proven to continue to be productive and consistent.
But then you have the offensive line, defensive line, and so on.

Green = Thomas. Thomas is a beast. And Sanders had a really good year, and glad. Talib and Ware I can get behind. But don't forget, Atkins is arguably the best DT in the league. We also had Burfict. The defensive line was once viewed as the best and deepest in the NFL. Our secondary was full of first round picks besides Iloka.

Fact of the matter is, the Bengals have an extremely talented roster that can go up against anybody. I was showing how 'elite' so players were on those teams by looking at All-Pros. Bengals have had All-Pro players. Also Pro-Bowl players. There is zero reason to believe that the Colts, Texans, and Colts had more 'elite' players than the Bengals do. You can discuss "really good" and so on, but when it comes to elite and All-Pro, no team really has all that many.

Idk about Green > Nelson. It's really really close.
I would say Cobb > Jones or Sanu pretty easily. Cobb would be able to be a #1 WR easy at almost any other team.
Green Bay has a really good offensive line. Not too far from ours I would say.

You say we have people like Atkins, but 2012 was the only year he played like himself (13 was injured, and 14 he didn't play all that great). The defensive line was viewed as one of the best in 2012, and part of 2013 when Atkins was healthy, but it it went down drastically when Atkins got hurt (and hasn't came back 100% since). Most of our first round picks in our secondary has been hurt in the playoffs (Hall 2011, 2013 was out and, Newman 2013, 2014 was out). Burfict was playing injured in 2013, and he was out in 2014.

In 2011, and 2012 we didn't have the talent needed to win in the playoffs, and in 2013, and 2014 we had too many injuries to win in the playoffs.

(06-24-2015, 06:25 PM)OSUfan Wrote: Reading Comprehension..............

I did not give the wins and losses to an individual.......read my statement again.

I never stated he played defense.......read my statement again.

I stated he was the QB of a TEAM (key word there) that beat some of the greats at the QB position. He is a part of those teams is he not? And whether you like to admit it or not he had a hand in those wins it was not just the defense rather a team effort.

I know exactly what you said, I was just explaining how it doesn't really make sense..........

Yes, the fact that Andy played on the same team as defenses that stopped elite QBs is absolutely true. It's pretty misleading though. Elite QB doesn't always equal elite defense, so why don't we talk about Andy's good games against great defenses? Wouldn't that just make a LITTLE more sense to defend the guy?

Silly me, but I think Andy playing great against good defenses is a better argument than Andy being on the same team as the guys that shut down other QBs. **** me, right? I'm obviously clueless.........

I also never said you were putting WL on the QB, that was my conversation with a completely different person. You want to talk about MY reading comprehension?! At least I can understand when someone is talking to me and when they aren't.........

(06-24-2015, 08:40 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: That's what happened later on down the line when he didn't have players that fit his scheme. That was Bratkowski's biggest struggle, implementing his playbook to fit what his players could flourish with.


Bratkowski's offenses worked early on in his career, even without Palmer. He ranked 13th or higher passing in 5 of his first 6 years. But then his offense began to stall as he wasn't really a "run-first" coordinator. He tried to be, and failed at it. Everyone remembers that. From '08-10, he just couldn't revise his offense to what the players were good at.

Exactly about Brat, early on with the Bengals Brat actually ran some pretty good offenses. Whether he just got to predictable, just didn't keep up with the times, players were just different, or something else I dunno ? But his offense got really stale ! I don't think he ever really understood how to capitalize on what his players excelled at.

I think this was also Jay's biggest downfall, he ran "his system" with little regard for what the players are good at !

I'm hoping Hue doesn't suffer from this.

(06-24-2015, 02:18 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I will repeat myself for the 100th time. The coach isn't very good but that doesn't excuse Dalton's poor play. Can there be a world in which both the coach and QB aren't very good and need to be replaced because that's the world I live in and most objective NFL fans do as well.  

Just because you say something does not make it true.

Dalton is a solid proven starting QB. He is in that group ranked from about 12 to 20 that can be shuffled around in any order. "Objective" NFL teams don't replace these type of QBs.  Instead the pay them $15+ million per year.

Lewis is better than most other coaches in the league.  He is in the top half of the league in winning percentage and in the top 5 in playoff appearances.  And almost half of the active coaches  (14) don't have a playoff win. 

These guys are not elite, but unless you have an elite replacement you don't get rid of them.

(06-24-2015, 04:12 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: What? My 10 year old cousin could probably be as good of an OC as Bratkoeski. All he would have to do is call a run play the first few downs then pass the ball on 3rd downs.

(06-24-2015, 04:15 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Are you trying to tell me the old "run, run, incompletion, punt" isn't the most elite strategy in NFL history?

Except for '09 Bratkowski threw the ball more on first down than most other OCs in the league.

it gets so frustrating trying to have discussions with fans who have no clue what they are talking about.

(06-24-2015, 12:37 PM)djs7685 Wrote: You don't have to be running an NFL team to have an opinion on specific players on the roster and the coaching staff.

I could be completely wrong, but I think guys like Rey Maualuga and Domata Peko are holding the defense back more than Carlos Dunlap and Adam Jones. For that reason, I'm usually involved in arguments and discussions when it comes to either of those guys because I think they're part of the problem and not necessarily part of the solution in Cincinnati. Just because I can't name a specific player that should come in and do their job better at this exact moment doesn't automatically make either of them better at their respective positions. I still think they're both mediocre at best whether there is a "clearly better" option available or not.

If I'm holding my company back with an inferior work ethic, it doesn't make me good at my job just because there aren't people available in my field and lining up to replace me. If I'm holding them back, then I'm holding them back flat out, no disclaimers or need to have a specific guy's name ready to work in my position. If I'm bad enough, some companies will even fire me before having a replacement ready to go. Since I've been here for years and have a relationship with my peers and supervisors, they may give me the benefit of the doubt for an extended period of time even if I'm not doing the best job since they can't find a quality replacement yet. Other companies may have different policies and I'm sure there would have been other companies that would have fired me by now regardless of my relationship with any of them. I'm just glad I work for these guys that don't care if I'm not very good at my job, as long as we remain close, I should have more freedom and benefit from the lack of accountability. Do you see where I'm going with this? I don't think the Bengals are a shitty franchise that can't do anything right, but I do believe they are overly loyal at times. IMO, Maualuga and Peko would have been cut by plenty of other teams by now for their recent performance. Even if they were retained, I don't see them getting the contracts they received in Cincinnati in other places.

I see you and a few others spend most of your time defending players/coaches but never specifically pointing out which guys you think could be upgraded, which positions we're weak at, and which areas could be holding us back from a playoff victory. I don't think it's crazy to be curious of which guys you honestly believe are the weak links on the team or who you think could have been potentially upgraded this past offseason.

For what it's worth, if I thought you or the other guys were complete morons and didn't care at all about your opinions, then I wouldn't be trying to find this stuff out. "We didn't do enough to win" is for Marvin. This is a message board where we get to play armchair GM, so since you seem to defend a lot of the guys that I don't think are very good, what are the pieces missing to win a playoff game, in your opinion?

Only problem is that you are wrong about Peko.  He can shed blockers and get t the ball carrier better than most DTs in the league.  And he does not get pushed around as badly as most people here claim.

This type pf post reminds me of all the years I have to deal with clueless fans that claimed Justion Smith was garbage and would not start for most other teams in the league.  "All he does is jump on the pile 5 yards downfield......Derp"

(06-24-2015, 11:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Only problem is that you are wrong about Peko.  He can shed blockers and get t the ball carrier better than most DTs in the league.  And he does not get pushed around as badly as most people here claim.

I am of the same opinion regarding the judgment of Peko, on these (and previous) boards.
He's lost a little, but I believe he is doing what he is asked to.
Just because it isn't pretty, it doesn't mean he isn't doing his job.