(04-26-2016, 11:33 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Perfect analogy.

Isaiah cried out that Jerusalem would rule the world, and so far he has been proven wrong.

Because Azazel was not appeased.
Much like P&R, a scapegoat is necessary.

(04-25-2016, 07:11 PM)Benton Wrote: Depends on the age. Mostly, I tell the truth.

But, I never skipped classes to get high. I did drink in class, but I've never been asked that one. I don't go into every detail (especially when it comes to promiscuity in high school), but it's important to be honest about the dumb decisions you've made. If you don't your kid is going to realize he can't talk to you about it.

Think about it: you hook up with a girl and your junk smells like bok choy. Do you talk to your parent (who lied and said they never had sex until marriage) or do you talk to your buddy (who lied about ever hooking up with a chick and only knows what he knows from porn and the internet)? I was lucky, my parents were fairly honest with me about the things they had and hadn't done in their life. So when I had a problem, if it was something they'd experienced, I talked to them about it. If they hadn't, I didn't always.

But, like I said, that depends on the age. If it's something I don't think they're ready to talk about, I tell them to ask me when they're older.

(04-25-2016, 07:55 PM)Awful Llama Wrote: Then later they ask their Uncle Ted about you when you were a teenager, and Uncle Ted busts a gut telling them how high you were most of your teenage years and all your credibility with them goes right about the window.

If they're old enough to ask about getting high and cutting class, they're old enough to hear the truth.  Use it as a teaching moment instead of trying to cover your ass.  Lies always come back to bite you, so fess up and try to make a negative a positive.  My .02.

Exactly right gentlemen.....and if those questions are asked, and I give them the correct answers, I will ALSO warn them of the pitfalls and the bad consequences I faced as a result of some of those decisions.  Nothing like speaking from experience to sell a point.  

Now as for Santa and the like, no way am I robbing my preschoolers of the joys of childhood, nor am I going against my assertion that we were wrasslin'....

(04-26-2016, 09:38 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So you never told your kids there was a Santa Clause?

Actually you have no clue what kids lie about and why they do it.  You are just claiming you are correct because you think you are correct.

How old are your kids?  Can you tell me that they have NEVER ever told you a lie?

1. No. When did I say anything about my own parenting - or even state whether I have children? One of the biggest problems with this MB - and perhaps our culture in general - is the assumptions and/or inferences people make. I never once said, "Here is my manifesto on parenting," or anything of that sort. I did state I have heard numerous (dozens, maybe even hundreds) talk about how devastated they were when they learned they could not trust their parents. Sometimes it was over a myth, sometimes it was over something much more serious (what happened to their pet, their sister, their grandmother, etc.). So, the question is whether it is worth examining if parents should be more deliberate in choosing what to tell their children and whether they should consider being more forthright about all things - the "fun" (Santa, Easter Bunny, what causes farts) and the not so fun (health, education, well being).

2. Again, when did I say I know what lies kids tell and why they tell them? I simply suggested there may be a parallel - and to me there seems to be a parallel - between honest parents having kids who are honest with them and dishonest parents having kids who are dishonest with them. I am not claiming anything. I am asking - does this make sense? Has anyone ever thought critically about it? I honestly expected broader opinions than what I have read so far, which is basically, "**** you, I lie to my kids as easily as I change my socks and how dare you question my abilities as a parent" and "to even raise the topic is strange." Well, OK, those opinions are valid and apparently prevalent here. That is what I wanted to know - what people think. But my sense is they are reacting and not really thinking much at all. I solicited opinions, and I got some, and I gave some feedback on them, but never said I never deceived a kid and never said I know all about all. I am thinking about this and wanted some grist for the mill.

3. Whether I am a parent or not is not germane to the discussion. The age of any children I may have is not germane. As Dylan said, "You don't have to be a weather man to know which way the wind is blowing." You don't have to have played football (or any sport) to coach it, be a fan of it, or have an opinion about it. It is just irrelevant. And again, I never said I never lied to children (be they mine or another's) and I even acknowledged there may be "must lie situations" involving children and adults. But they seem to be a matter of politeness (like not saying someone's newborn is ugly - at least not to the parent) and I wonder if we as a culture (or all cultures) are too cavalier about deceit whether for politeness sake, some other reason, or no reason.

(04-26-2016, 11:08 AM)Au165 Wrote: You can do whatever you want with your own kid, but when your kid starts telling other kids at 5 years old there is no Santa be prepared for your kid to become a social leper. There will be consequences for treating your child like an adult while they are children ,and that could possibly be their inability to relate socially with their peers.

It seems that door swings both ways. Some parents treat a five year old more like a ten to fifteen year old than a five month old, and seem to have good results. The case can be made that these kids relate better with peers, are more tolerant, mature faster, do better as adults, and are impeded only by the infantiizing perpetrated by others on their own kids.

There are many ways to rear a child. The majority is not always right. I mean, centuries ago it was common for husbands to beat and rape their wives. Just because most did it doesn't mean it is or was a superior way to conduct a marriage.

(04-26-2016, 11:24 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I am pretty sure that XXLT does not even have children.  If he did he would understand the concept of "emotional maturity".  Young children are just not emotionally mature enough to understand certain concepts.  A 5 year old child will not be able to understand why sex is a good thing if it makes his mommy scream.

Children lie to their parents for lots of reasons.  There is no way you can claim that if a parent never lies to a child then that child will never tell a lie.  It just is not that simple.

Only a person who never had a 5 year old would claim that you can commmunicate with a 5 year old the same way you can with an adult.

It isn't A or B. You don't have to show the five year old a sex ed video or tell a blatant lie. You can say nothing, you can say you wouldn't understand, you can say when you are older we will revisit this. Or again, maybe you lie about some things out of necessity but reflect on whether you do so too often or too readily - if maybe sometimes it is not necessary.

You don't have to treat a five year old like an imbecile or a genius. There is a continuum. A five year old understands a heck of a lot in many instances, and pretending they don't may be detrimental to all involved. Does that mean treating kindergarten kids like adults? No, but it also doesn't mean treating them like vegetables.

(04-26-2016, 11:33 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Perfect analogy.

Isaiah cried out that Jerusalem would rule the world, and so far he has been proven wrong.

Perfect analogy indeed. God's faithful (and we got a few here) repeatedly ignore the voice of the prophets He has sent and/or inspired to tell them difficult truths they don't want to face. And in ignoring the prophetic voice, they turn away from God and continue to disappoint Him and prevent his Kingdom from being realized.

(04-26-2016, 12:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But they rebel against oppressive parenting.


Here is my take on it.  Parenting is like coaching.  Different kids respond to different parenting styles, just like different players respond to different types of coaching.  When I was playing sports I was never impressed by a coach screaming his head off like a mad man.  To me that just looked stupid.  But it did work with some other players.

The best parents are like the best coaches.  They can tell what style of parenting/coaching works with each individual.  People are different, and if you think one plan works on them all you won't be very successful at motivating them. 

I agree very much with the above post. It was articulated by a wise person this way (when answering a question about child rearing): treat them [kids] all the same by treating them different. I know some very successful coaches adhere to this philosophy with athletes as well.

(04-26-2016, 12:27 AM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Thanks for the FB update, had no idea.  So how do you solve for decentralized social interactions super dad?  Might as well take the Internet away from them and handcuff their future. 

I think you're thinking that Im talking about some deep rooted covert CIA/Special Ops situation where you monitor their every move, word, and syllable. That's not it and that's impossible to do. 

What Im saying is a casual monitoring of what they're up to, what their mood is, and what their friends are doing. And it's my opinion that you really have to do it. 

My brother in law that I referenced above, being a "stay out of their business and give them free reign because they're just going to hate you and do what they want to do anyway" parent, he doesn't monitor his kids interactions at all. Well as I said above, he's having trouble with the MJ (been arrested TWICE already at age 16) and has experimented recently with Oxy. We know this because his ex wife DOES snoop through his stuff and read some texts. Thankfully through her reaching out to my wife and the both of them talking sense into him (he blew it off as the kid was just experimenting like he used to do) they have gotten together and are getting help for the kid. Its scary as the kid at only 16 is well on his way to heroin trouble and if my BIL's ex had the same attitude as him, he would no doubt be even closer today. 

(04-26-2016, 12:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But they rebel against oppressive parenting.


Here is my take on it.  Parenting is like coaching.  Different kids respond to different parenting styles, just like different players respond to different types of coaching.  When I was playing sports I was never impressed by a coach screaming his head off like a mad man.  To me that just looked stupid.  But it did work with some other players.

The best parents are like the best coaches.  They can tell what style of parenting/coaching works with each individual.  People are different, and if you think one plan works on them all you won't be very successful at motivating them. 

Are you under the impression that firm parenting = oppressive parenting?   For the love of Pete..... I'm not Muslim.  

As to your coach analogy.... Did you respect the "fun" coach who was your buddy and let you get by or did you respect the coaches that pushed you and were right there to correct you when you messed up? 

(04-26-2016, 12:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But they rebel against oppressive parenting.


Here is my take on it.  Parenting is like coaching.  Different kids respond to different parenting styles, just like different players respond to different types of coaching.  When I was playing sports I was never impressed by a coach screaming his head off like a mad man.  To me that just looked stupid.  But it did work with some other players.

The best parents are like the best coaches.  They can tell what style of parenting/coaching works with each individual.  People are different, and if you think one plan works on them all you won't be very successful at motivating them. 

You are absolutely right about treating each kid individually. But you do have to have a general style. And I agree with StLucie, it is your job to be firm and be their parent, not their friend. You can be firm without being oppressive. 

I keep referring to my bro in law. The guy is the cool dad who keeps a loose rein on his kids and he's having trouble with the oldest already. 

(04-26-2016, 10:03 PM)xxlt Wrote: U
1. No. When did I say anything about my own parenting - or even state whether I have children? One of the biggest problems with this MB - and perhaps our culture in general - is the assumptions and/or inferences people make. I never once said, "Here is my manifesto on parenting," or anything of that sort. I did state I have heard numerous (dozens, maybe even hundreds) talk about how devastated they were when they learned they could not trust their parents. Sometimes it was over a myth, sometimes it was over something much more serious (what happened to their pet, their sister, their grandmother, etc.). So, the question is whether it is worth examining if parents should be more deliberate in choosing what to tell their children and whether they should consider being more forthright about all things - the "fun" (Santa, Easter Bunny, what causes farts) and the not so fun (health, education, well being).

2. Again, when did I say I know what lies kids tell and why they tell them? I simply suggested there may be a parallel - and to me there seems to be a parallel - between honest parents having kids who are honest with them and dishonest parents having kids who are dishonest with them. I am not claiming anything. I am asking - does this make sense? Has anyone ever thought critically about it? I honestly expected broader opinions than what I have read so far, which is basically, "**** you, I lie to my kids as easily as I change my socks and how dare you question my abilities as a parent" and "to even raise the topic is strange." Well, OK, those opinions are valid and apparently prevalent here. That is what I wanted to know - what people think. But my sense is they are reacting and not really thinking much at all. I solicited opinions, and I got some, and I gave some feedback on them, but never said I never deceived a kid and never said I know all about all. I am thinking about this and wanted some grist for the mill.

3. Whether I am a parent or not is not germane to the discussion. The age of any children I may have is not germane. As Dylan said, "You don't have to be a weather man to know which way the wind is blowing." You don't have to have played football (or any sport) to coach it, be a fan of it, or have an opinion about it. It is just irrelevant. And again, I never said I never lied to children (be they mine or another's) and I even acknowledged there may be "must lie situations" involving children and adults. But they seem to be a matter of politeness (like not saying someone's newborn is ugly - at least not to the parent) and I wonder if we as a culture (or all cultures) are too cavalier about deceit whether for politeness sake, some other reason, or no reason.

Your parenting chops are germane.   When I was younger and had no children I went through the phase of its great to treat kids as equals and tell them everything.  Because it was the "right" thing to do so they liked me.   

Fortunately I didn't have children then when I had these ridiculous notions.     Age and expierence has allowed me to see where friends and family have gone wrong.   This has also allowed me enough time to formulate a method I am comfortable.  

And lastly ...... The got dang Germans got nothin to do with this ...

(04-26-2016, 11:07 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Are you under the impression that firm parenting = oppressive parenting?   For the love of Pete..... I'm not Muslim.  

There has never been a parent who admits to being an oppressive parent.

Does that mean none exist?

A "firm" parent believes in discipline.  An "oppressive" parent believes that their children must have the exact same beliefs that they have.

I have heard you talk about the strict rules you have about how your daughters can dress and what sports are forbidden to them.  Those have ZERO to do with discipline.  Instead they are about forcing the children to believe and think exactly like you.

 So, yes, you are clearly an oppressive parent.

(04-26-2016, 11:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There has never been a parent who admits to being an oppressive parent.

Does that mean none exist?

A "firm" parent believes in discipline.  An "oppressive" parent believes that their children must have the exact same beliefs that they have.

I have heard you talk about the strict rules you have about how your daughters can dress and what sports are forbidden to them.  Those have ZERO to do with discipline.  Instead they are about forcing the children to believe and think exactly like you.

 So, yes, you are clearly an oppressive parent.

Lol strict rules?   

You mean dressing like little girls?   Their mom chooses what they wear.    My girls do wear pants and shorts you know.    Like I said I'm not Muslim lol 

And as far as sports .....  You mean my desire that they play sports with other girls?   How oppressive of me lol 

(04-26-2016, 11:07 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: As to your coach analogy.... Did you respect the "fun" coach who was your buddy and let you get by or did you respect the coaches that pushed you and were right there to correct you when you messed up? 

This question makes no sense.  

A really good coach can be fun and still motivate you to do your best and correct you when you mess up.

the fact that you don't think this is possible proves that you were probably a pretty lame coach.

(04-26-2016, 11:44 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: And as far as sports .....  You mean my desire that they play sports with other girls?   How oppressive of me lol 

Not your "desire".  I am talking about your strict rules.

(04-26-2016, 11:44 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Lol strict rules?   

You mean dressing like little girls?   Their mom chooses what they wear.    My girls do wear pants and shorts you know.    Like I said I'm not Muslim lol 

And as far as sports .....  You mean my desire that they play sports with other girls?   How oppressive of me lol 

You Prick !!

(04-26-2016, 11:44 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: You mean dressing like little girls?   Their mom chooses what they wear.    My girls do wear pants and shorts you know.    Like I said I'm not Muslim lol 

Why does everything have to be about your xenophobic slurs with you?

Plenty of Muslim girls wear pants and shorts.

(04-27-2016, 12:19 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This question makes no sense.  

A really good coach can be fun and still motivate you to do your best and correct you when you mess up.

the fact that you don't think this is possible proves that you were probably a pretty lame coach.

I was a respected coach.  Coaches job is simple... Set goals and the plan to reach those goals and ensure that the plan is followed.   

players want to be coached hard on the field.    You are obviously confusing on field demeanor and off field demeanor.     The fact you can't tell the difference just shows why the position some of us are speaking of in parenting is going over your head.  

And predictably you default to directly insulting me.  This is your second post in a row tossing an insult at me instead of staying on topic.    

(04-27-2016, 12:21 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Not your "desire".  I am talking about your strict rules.

Please do tell.   

(04-27-2016, 12:32 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: players want to be coached hard on the field.    You are obviously confusing on field demeanor and off field demeanor.     The fact you can't tell the difference just shows why the position some of us are speaking of in parenting is going over your head.  

No.  I am not confusing anything.  Averyone here is just twisting my words to what they want to say.


All I ever said was that I never respected a coach who just screamed and yelled all the time.  There are lots of people around here who think a coach has to scream like a madman to be a good coach.  I strongly disagree with this.  Some of the best coaches are the ones who don't just scream and yell to motivate players.

My dad was strict with me yet he was still my friend.  It is sad that some of you think you have to be an asshole to your kids in order to be a good parent.  It is not a bad thing to be friends with your children.