(09-26-2016, 04:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Doesn't contradict anything I said.

Home teams make money in the playoffs.  So more wins means more money for Mike.

If Mike really was afraid of losing money by playing a road playoff game then we would not be making the playoffs every year.

So the argument that Mike wants to make the playoffs but not win because of money makes no sense at all.

Except that it does. It's right there in black and white. Teams that make the playoffs have higher expenses, since they have to pay stadium workers and more utilities for the game. They may get to keep a portion of the concessions and parking--depending on their lease (i don't know the facts of that situation). They also have to pay added contract incentives (ex: Dalton's contract with playoff escalators). If they're on the road, they have to pay travel expenses. 

The playoff incentives alone are usually enough to offset any profit they might make from a home game. 

He should have been gone long ago. Sad to be a Bengals fan.


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(09-26-2016, 09:54 AM)Wyche Wrote: Yep, and if memory serves, after we lost Zim, couldn't we have had Jim Schwartz.....the guy who just dominated Shitsburgh......as a DC?

One of the most underappreciated guys in the NFL.  If only Harbaugh hadn't shoved him.  

Seriously, would have been a very good choice with our roster.  

(09-27-2016, 02:10 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Nailed it.  This sums my feelings pretty well.  It's not just the performance on the field but his personality.  In fact, I may want him gone more for this reason than any other.

This explains a lot.

"I don't care how he coaches.  He hurts my wittle fweelings."

(09-27-2016, 03:50 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Except that it does. It's right there in black and white. Teams that make the playoffs have higher expenses, since they have to pay stadium workers and more utilities for the game. They may get to keep a portion of the concessions and parking--depending on their lease (i don't know the facts of that situation). They also have to pay added contract incentives (ex: Dalton's contract with playoff escalators). If they're on the road, they have to pay travel expenses. 

The playoff incentives alone are usually enough to offset any profit they might make from a home game. 

You lost me. I have never heard of an incentive based on a home or road playoff game. Once the team makes the payoffs, those players get the money if it is in their contract. So, that expense is there regardless of home or away making your comment above irrelevent.

(09-27-2016, 02:10 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Nailed it.  This sums my feelings pretty well.  It's not just the performance on the field but his personality.  In fact, I may want him gone more for this reason than any other.  He just comes across as so smug.  He strikes me as incredibly condescending as almost put off by the fact that he has to address people he feels aren't worth his time. 

I mean, dude, you're making 2mil plus a year.  You're in the top 1% of the top 1%.  Dealing with the press and fans kind of comes with the territory.  And like you said, you don't always have to be a likeable character to be successful as a coach, but you better at least freaking win.

It's not like he's the coach of a team whose city paid a half billion dollars for the stadium his franchise enjoys.  Oh, wait he is.  And when asked what is response to those who are concerned with our lack of success in the playoffs, we get answers like "A lot of teams would just be happy to make the playoffs".  That's it.  No further clarification, no effort to expand on the topic, or to appease his fans.

He just seems like a smug prick.

Smug, arrogant, condescending.  All words that I would use to describe Mike Brown.  It's why I think he and Marvin were made for each other.

(09-27-2016, 10:08 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: You lost me. I have never heard of an incentive based on a home or road playoff game. Once the team makes the payoffs, those players get the money if it is in their contract. So, that expense is there regardless of home or away making your comment above irrelevent.

Home teams get to make money from parking and concessions.  So the more home playoff games a team has the more money they make.

But the whole argument is completely flawed.  If Mike Brown did not want to lose money by making the playoffs then the Bengals would not make the playoffs every year.

(09-27-2016, 08:03 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: One of the most underappreciated guys in the NFL.  If only Harbaugh hadn't shoved him.  

Seriously, would have been a very good choice with our roster.  

I agree, would have made a very nice, proven, DC with our 4-3 scheme.

(09-27-2016, 10:08 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: You lost me. I have never heard of an incentive based on a home or road playoff game. Once the team makes the payoffs, those players get the money if it is in their contract. So, that expense is there regardless of home or away making your comment above irrelevent.

Profits from parking, concessions and merchandising. The incentives are regardless of where the game is played.

(09-27-2016, 10:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Home teams get to make money from parking and concessions.  So the more home playoff games a team has the more money they make.

But the whole argument is completely flawed.  If Mike Brown did not want to lose money by making the playoffs then the Bengals would not make the playoffs every year.

I think his views on a lot of things have changed over the last 5-10 years. Though i fully believe he was of the mindset that he would rather have a competitive team that turned a profit but didnt make the playoffs, so he would not have to potentially have more payouts--decreasing the profits--as little as 5-10 years ago.

(09-27-2016, 10:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Home teams get to make money from parking and concessions.  So the more home playoff games a team has the more money they make.

But the whole argument is completely flawed.  If Mike Brown did not want to lose money by making the playoffs then the Bengals would not make the playoffs every year.

No. Making the playoff is a good thing (>Fan interest). Going deep into the playoffs is NOT good in Mikey's mind because he has to pay people.

(09-26-2016, 01:33 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: The loyalty shown to by this organization, and by a good amount of the fanbase, to Marvin Lewis is something that may indeed bite them. Big time. I think it will be more and more evident as time goes on.

Am I saying he is terrible coach? No, I am not. Am I saying that we would have been guaranteed greater success had we moved on? No, I would not make that argument. There are no guarantees with any coaching change. Do I think the keeping him was the worst possible move? No, I don't think so. Contrary to popular belief (Fred Toast types), some who feel, or felt it is, or was, time to move aren't coming to that conclusion based upon making change just for the sake of change. But I do wonder, now that we move further and further along in this 14 year experiment if some are finally realizes why so many argued for other options.

I guess first let's just get to the elephant in the room. A one, Mr. Mike Zimmer. A coach the vast majority of this fanbase loved, a coach many of his player's adored, and a DC that certainly earned a HC opportunity. Here he was, his resume begging for a chance. A chance that many felt came later than it should. Here he sat, leading our defenses to multiple top 10 finishes. A organization that hadn't seen a real defensive success in the better part of two decades. We had one coach had earned a shot somewhere, and we have another coach who had 12 years to accomplish something greater than a Wild Card round birth, and had failed. Obviously we all know what we chose.

The question is, did we make a mistake? Zimmer is currently sitting at 3-0, after having lost both his starting QB and the games best RB. Basically his entire offensive identity. And can anyone name 4 starters on that D without looking it up? He's 3-0, coming off an 11-5 season in year 2. By all accounts he is a no-nonsense guy. I have to wonder if a Mike Zimmer coach team would have behaved as Marvin's did at the end of last year's playoff loss?

How many of Marvin's biggest supporters still think today that not rewarding Mike Zimmer with a job he earned was that right move? Would you make that trade now?

And of course Jay left, and Hue left. And Marvin stayed. Marvin always stays.

-He stayed in 2008, after yet another disappointing year when John Harbaugh was hired by the Ravens. He's won a Superbowl, and been to 3, count them, 3 AFC Championships.

-He stayed in 2009, after a 4-12 season that would have saw any other team fire him, when Rex Ryan was hired by the Jets. He proceeded to immediately go to back to back AFC Championships.

-He stayed in 2010, after year 7, and another first round exit, when Pete Carrol was hired by the Seahwaks. He went on to win a Superbowl, go to back to back Superbowls, and has made further than Marvin has in the playoffs EVER, in 5 of his 6 seasons.

-He stayed in 2011, after going 4-12 again when John Fox was hired by the Broncos. He went to a Superbowl, and in all 4 seasons there made it to at least the divisional round of the playoffs. Again, Marvin hasn't been there once. Jim Harbaugh was hired by the 49'ers this same offseason. He proceeded to go the NFC Championship in year 1, to the Superbowl in year 2, and again to the NFC Championship again in year 3. Ron Rivera, coming off a Superbowl appearance was also hired this year.

Rather than keep typing resumes, here's a list of some other notable coaches hired since 2012: Andy Reid, Bruce Arians, Mike Zimmer, Gary Kubiak (Just won a ring in year 1)...

I just listed 10 guys, in about 5 minutes of research. Look at all of the names that come and go, look at all of the successes made by making a change.

And here Marvin sits. Year 14. Not one single playoff win. Not one. Forget Superbowls, or Conference Championship. The guy hasn't even made it the divisional round. IN 13 YEARS!!!! 13!!!!

But hey, maybe Mike just like working with what he knows. He's familiar with Marvin and that counts for something. Of course he was familiar with Mike Zimmer too and we let him walk. He was familiar with Hue Jackson too, and apparently we offered some deal that he could coach the team in 2027 or something (who does that, btw?).

Many of you love Marvin and are adamant about not making a change. I hope your patience pays off for everybody this year, yet I suspect it won't. But maybe by year 20 you'll realize that those of us who called for Zimmer to get the job weren't so irrational after all. Maybe by then you'll realize that there are actually other (better) options. Or maybe you won't?

Oh yeah, great job today, Marvin. You did enough clapping and yelled "Let's go" just enough times. The perfect amount even. Really looking forward to seeing how well we do come the postseason.

It's Week 4 man. I can't tell you how many times I've seen 3-0 teams flame out into Oblivion. Many of those being Marvin's teams as well.

We can woulda-coulda-shoulda all day about who would could have hired here, who we could have fired there, but at the end of the day, we are currently in the midst of one of the most successful 5 year stretches in franchise history. It remains to be seen, the positive impact that this will continue to have on the organization and also the city as a whole.

All it's going to take is one Super Bowl win, and until we lose to Miami and/or Dallas, I'm not ready to say that it's not our year. There's a lot of football left to be played. This thread is extremely knee-jerk.

It actually makes me sad that people have no confidence in Marvin's ability to bring a team back from the doldrums. 3-5 in 2012 to 10-6 and in the playoffs. 0-1 in 2013 and going 11-4 the rest of the way out. Losing 24-3 to the Browns in 2014 and bringing the team back to making the playoffs with only 5 losses. Surviving a two-game losing streak in 2015 to almost winning a playoff game with a backup QB.

And how about the franchise turnaround? After the quitter left, making the playoffs the year after even after starting 1-2.

Marvin is definitely underrated as a coach, looking at all the adversity he has battled through since he's been here. All it's going to take is one big win to change the narrative forever, and that can still happen this year.

Also, we as fans need to be ready for success. This mentality that we will revert to the "Bungles" (which mainly comes from fans in their 30's+) has to expire. It's not good for the mental health of this team and the city as a whole.

Marvin Lewis might be the best coach the Bengals have had since Paul Brown with respect to drafting and acquiring talent. I don't want to lose this. However, he's not the one who can develop that talent.

(09-28-2016, 10:41 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Marvin Lewis might be the best coach the Bengals have had since Paul Brown with respect to drafting and acquiring talent.  I don't want to lose this.  However, he's not the one who can develop that talent.

What if that's mostly Tobins work we've been misattributing to ML? That really changes the prospective of things. 

(09-28-2016, 10:45 AM)TGISunday Wrote: What if that's mostly Tobins work we've been misattributing to ML? That really changes the prospective of things. 

That's distinctly possible yet improbable.  You definitely get rep for this observation though!

(09-27-2016, 10:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Home teams get to make money from parking and concessions.  So the more home playoff games a team has the more money they make.

But the whole argument is completely flawed.  If Mike Brown did not want to lose money by making the playoffs then the Bengals would not make the playoffs every year.

I understand that, I bolded a specific comment made. It does not matter if the game is home or away with player contracts if they have an incentive for making the playoffs. Road or home, they get the incentive. I understand his points for everything, but not for player contract incentives. He made it appear it was only an expense at home, it is an expense either way.

(09-28-2016, 10:50 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: That's distinctly possible yet improbable.  You definitely get rep for this observation though!

I would say it's more probable that Tobin is doing that more so than Marvin IMO. Marvin probably has some input, but if I had to guess Tobin was doing most of the heavy lifting.

(09-26-2016, 07:49 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I won't put my neck out for Gruden, but why don't you get back to me when Zimmer has been a HC for 12 years and hasn't won a playoff game. 

I  very well could - we'll see.

I was hoping that Zimmer would have been our next head coach, so I think we are on the same page with this one.

What I don't get is all the bitching and moaning on this board after a 1-2 start to the season when we have played 3 playoff level teams - 2 of them on the road without 2 of our most valuable players.

(09-28-2016, 11:31 AM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I  very well could - we'll see.

I was hoping that Zimmer would have been our next head coach, so I think we are on the same page with this one.

What I don't get is all the bitching and moaning on this board after a 1-2 start to the season when we have played 3 playoff level teams - 2 of them on the road without 2 of our most valuable players.

This may explain the Bengals' lack of success in the actual playoffs.