They should concentrate on putting more pressure on the QB. Fixing this will cover most of the other issues the defense has.

At this point you have to try anything to get some pressure up front, so go with Dunlap and Clarke on the ends and Geno and Hunt inside, with making sure to rotate players more frequently. Also start getting Vigil game time snaps and (this is a bit of a reach I admit) bench Shaun Williams and have Dennard do safety snaps for a while. Also put Jones on notice that he needs to step up or Shaw gets his snaps.

And then play wise cut the cushions out and have the corners play bump coverage right at the line where it's legal. It's all a gamble and if it fails we get torched but we're getting torched now.

(11-01-2016, 07:25 PM)Joelist Wrote: At this point you have to try anything to get some pressure up front, so go with Dunlap and Clarke on the ends and Geno and Hunt inside, with making sure to rotate players more frequently. Also start getting Vigil game time snaps and (this is a bit of a reach I admit) bench Shaun Williams and have Dennard do safety snaps for a while. Also put Jones on notice that he needs to step up or Shaw gets his snaps.

And then play wise cut the cushions out and have the corners play bump coverage right at the line where it's legal. It's all a gamble and if it fails we get torched but we're getting torched now.

I've thought the same thing, I'd love to see some rotation with Dunlap and MJ (or Clarke) on the ends, with Hunt and Geno bull rushing the middle...

(11-01-2016, 06:30 PM)Wyche Wrote: Absolutely.

I knew MJs snap count was up there, but wow.  I too would like to see more Sims, and have seen Hunt spelling Geno.  I would also agree with others that it seems zero push up front is what is the biggest problem on the defense.  I also think we have taken a step back in over the top coverage.  That said, a healthier pass rush would alleviate that somewhat.  In all honesty, we're not getting good push from EITHER line.

Someone I WISH they would give a shot for playing time is DeShawn Williams. He showed many pass rush moves and the ability to shed blocks. Honestly, outside of kicking situation, I'd put him in over Hunt.

(11-01-2016, 03:35 PM)sonofstat Wrote: http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Defense-considering-personnel-changes/690641b1-66c0-40a5-8147-b2aa3e47b221

Sounds like Paulie G wants to rattle some cages in the bye week too.

maybe more Will Clarke, Sims, Shaw, Smith and Vigil??

Oh, the dreaded bye week.  Another opportunity to come out flat for the next game.

(11-01-2016, 04:40 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: I imagine he's talking about getting Vinny Rey, Will Clarke, and maybe Derron Smith into the lineup. Possibly Vigil too? Doubt he's talking about anyone you mentioned just because we don't have much behind them. Already use 3 CB's most plays so gotta have those 2 out there more often then not. Also doesn't sound like he's planning any real benchings just more rotations.

I will be surprised if the average fans will even notice any change. A play here and there, but nothing to grab a player by the short hair and get his attention.

(11-01-2016, 07:04 PM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: So how many games is vigil allowed to be sub par in?, or any young in for that matter?

Trial by fire.  Put his ass in there, see if he can handle the heat..

If not, back to the bench.

(11-01-2016, 09:31 PM)Derrick Wrote: I will be surprised if the average fans will even notice any change. A play here and there, but nothing to grab a player by the short hair and get his attention.

 “Some of the guys that have been here, that have been fixtures here, for some reason or another, whether it's age or whatever it is, they are not playing at a high level and I've got to figure out where I can inject some other guys that can do it better or at least try to,” said Guenther and when asked if the kids are ready he offered, “We’ll find out. That’s our job to get them ready.”


Hobson has added more to the link/article from when i first posted it at the start of the thread.


The stuff he's added sure sounds like Paulie G would me looking at more changes than a play here or there.  Specific mention of Dennard, Vigil and Clarke by him so some adjustments on all three levels

(11-01-2016, 04:52 PM)Sabretooth Wrote: How did we look against the cowboys or patriots ?

These are basically the same players who held the patriots to six points at our place.

I think people forget we have a new D line coach, new LBs coach and new secondary coaches. The same guys on D line who were getting to the opponent's QB while rushing 4 under Jay Hayes' tutelage are no longer getting there. The same LBs (save Dansby) who were stopping the run under Matt Burke, are now missing tackles under Haslett. The same secondary players who were ball hawking and preventing long plays under Joseph and Carrier are now giving up plays under Coyle. I think it is much more a case of the techniques the new coaches are teaching than all of a sudden the players have forgotten how to cover or make tackles.

(11-01-2016, 09:56 PM)Beaker Wrote: These are basically the same players who held the patriots to six points at our place.

I think people forget we have a new D line coach, new LBs coach and new secondary coaches. The same guys on D line who were getting to the opponent's QB while rushing 4 under Jay Hayes' tutelage are no longer getting there. The same LBs (save Dansby) who were stopping the run under Matt Burke, are now missing tackles under Haslett. The same secondary players who were ball hawking and preventing long plays under Joseph and Carrier are now giving up plays under Coyle. I think it is much more a case of the techniques the new coaches are teaching than all of a sudden the players have forgotten how to cover or make tackles.

Agree completely.  I made a similar argument in another thread on the defense.  Personally, I feel the combined loss of Reggie Nelson and Vance Joseph has had the most impact on the defensive performance this year.

"Defense uses bye to ponder personnel changes"

LOL little too late isn't it? Trade deadline come and gone.

This article should be just called "Paulie G trying to save face"

It's more coaching than personnel, though we're not perfect there, either.

These fire zones where 280 pounders are dropping into deep zones--worthless. Are we getting sacks, fooling qbs, getting off the field with these plays? Get rid of them. Totally wrong scheme for that nonsense.

Like previously mentioned, we're misusing Dansby in coverage.

Need to rotate the linemen more. Even Dunlap and Geno are less effective when they're on the field close to 80 snaps.

That's a start. Also nothing wrong with what Pauly G mentioned for guys getting more snaps.

(11-01-2016, 03:45 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I'll believe it when I see it, and if your replacement isn't any better, then there's no reason to do it.

^
This

Yea Vigil was probably a bad name to give as an example. He didn't earn a cult following but he got one on here, he may work out but he's more of an extreme example of change.

We're tossing the same names around, but I'd narrow it down to a few moves like Smith for sure getting more reps at safety. In flashes, he looks less lost. Give me a split second hesitation from a QB in exchange for worrying about Smith getting up to knock a high pass down. Rather than slide Williams over as a NLB, just make him earn reps back in practice and work him back situationally. I agree with seeing more of the NT types taking reps from Peko, maybe it's sold to the old vet as keeping him fresh. They already mix in DE's as UT's in pass reps, but they may gamble with a little more of it. So more of MJ/Clarke/Hunt sharing time between DE and then DT. The pressure would then be on the LB's and even S being able to holdup vs the occasional run.

Regardless of the Bengal way, I'd really push for a trade for a vet pass rushing DE. I don't care if he can't play the run, teams are going to throw incompletions on 2nd down at times so just get me someone you can run onto the field to help Geno and Dunlap for sure.

(11-01-2016, 04:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Coaches play the best players they have exactly because it is their neck on the line.

Coaches see all of these players everyday in practice.  They know which ones are best.

If only that were true with the Bengals.

I really don't see how Haslett, Coyle or Barney have done anything but create a confused defense. The defensive calls are not the same as they were last year. The team seems much less aggressive. Yes Nelson is gone, but that can't be the entire difference. The coaching has taken a step back.

We made a mistake in not bringing back Hall. He could have provided some continuity in the preparation in the secondary.

(11-02-2016, 01:28 AM)BengalChris Wrote: If only that were true with the Bengals.

It is.  Just ask Besnahan, Bratkowski, Fitzgerald and others.

I don't know why people around here have to make stuff up to complain about.  Just makes them sound stupid.

(11-02-2016, 01:35 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It is.  Just ask Besnahan, Bratkowski, Fitzgerald and others.

I don't know why people around here have to make stuff up to complain about.  Just makes them sound stupid.

Do you really think that any of the jobs of the defensive coaches is on the line right now?

It took years before Bratkowski was canned.

(11-01-2016, 09:56 PM)Beaker Wrote: These are basically the same players who held the patriots to six points at our place.

I think people forget we have a new D line coach, new LBs coach and new secondary coaches. The same guys on D line who were getting to the opponent's QB while rushing 4 under Jay Hayes' tutelage are no longer getting there. The same LBs (save Dansby) who were stopping the run under Matt Burke, are now missing tackles under Haslett. The same secondary players who were ball hawking and preventing long plays under Joseph and Carrier are now giving up plays under Coyle. I think it is much more a case of the techniques the new coaches are teaching than all of a sudden the players have forgotten how to cover or make tackles.

But that Patriots game was under Zimmer....

You have to also throw in 2014, which was when Guenther came in. We had the 22nd ranked defense. Were 20th against the pass and run. Ranked dead last in sacks with only 20. Gave up 16 rushing TDs, ranked 27th in the NFL.

2015 was a VERY good year under Guenther. But he struggled his first season with the same position coaches you mentioned that were great, and now he has these new ones. Although, I do believe Haslett would be an improvement, it seems I was wrong in thinking that.

Stats now? Rank 24th in the league in yards per game. Ranked 21st against the pass and 23rd against the run. Giving up 23.6 points per game, ranked 19th in the league, but also tied with the Redskins. Gave up 16 passing TDs, ranking them 28th in the league, tied with the Panthers. Have given up 7 rushing TDs, which is tied for 18th with three other teams.

(11-02-2016, 01:58 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Do you really think that any of the jobs of the defensive coaches is on the line right now?

It took years before Bratkowski was canned.

Bratkowski was fired after just 3 bad years.  Fitzgerald was fired after two.

Coaches here know they can get fired if they don't produce, but even if they didn't believe this was true I am sure they would do everything possible to be as successful as possible.  I can't imagine any coach at the NFL level saying "I won't play my best players because I don't want to look like I am doing a good job."

(11-02-2016, 02:37 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Bratkowski was fired after just 3 bad years.  Fitzgerald was fired after two.

Coaches here know they can get fired if they don't produce, but even if they didn't believe this was true I am sure they would do everything possible to be as successful as possible.  I can't imagine any coach at the NFL level saying "I won't play my best players because I don't want to look like I am doing a good job."

"Just after three years"

Lol. And you think I'm the troll?