(11-29-2016, 04:34 PM)Marlon23 Wrote: This is my point.  If we did not trade Carson off and had the exact same team, We would have won Playoffs and perhaps even a SB.  I would take young Carson or even knowledgeable Carson in 2011 over Andy Dalton but some how some how Cincy let him walk. 


It is now 2016 going into 2017 and we are no longer able to give any excuses for Andy Dalton.  

Palmer was awful at the end of his tenure here, and I loved the dude.  His is still the only Bengals jersey I own (fittin' to change that this Christmas with a Boomer throwback jersey), but he was bad the last couple of years, really. 

What excuses are being made?  His numbers are good, our offense moves the ball, just can't score....the defense has been abysmal, and the o line is straight doo doo.  That said, that also happened to Palmer his last few years here, the line sucked......hmmmmmm.....

The problem is, people see the league through Mike Clown's lenses.....they think shiny trinket skill players make the difference, when the game is actually won and lost in the trenches.  Right now, as in the past at times, the trenches are shitty.  That's putting it politely.

(11-29-2016, 04:44 PM)Wyche Wrote: Palmer was awful at the end of his tenure here, and I loved the dude.  His is still the only Bengals jersey I own (fittin' to change that this Christmas with a Boomer throwback jersey), but he was bad the last couple of years, really. 

What excuses are being made?  His numbers are good, our offense moves the ball, just can't score....the defense has been abysmal, and the o line is straight doo doo.  That said, that also happened to Palmer his last few years here, the line sucked......hmmmmmm.....

The problem is, people see the league through Mike Clown's lenses.....they think shiny trinket skill players make the difference, when the game is actually won and lost in the trenches.  Right now, as in the past at times, the trenches are shitty.  That's putting it politely.

Scoring is a big part of winning Games.  No Offense I am just dying laughing right now.  I get what you are saying but after that I just started laughing and crying at the same time.  

(11-29-2016, 04:44 PM)Wyche Wrote:   Right now, as in the past at times, the trenches are shitty.  

And no one likes a shitty trench.

(11-29-2016, 04:46 PM)Marlon23 Wrote: Scoring is a big part of winning Games.  No Offense I am just dying laughing right now.  I get what you are saying but after that I just started laughing and crying at the same time.  

Of course it is....Andy shares some blame in that, no question.  However, I wouldn't say the Lion's share of it.  When you can't punch it in from inside the one on two straight run plays (as happened earlier this year), you become pretty one dimensional in the Red Zone, and one dimensional at this level is fatal.  This line has absolutely NO SACK.....as in scrotum.  They are terrible, one of the worst I've ever seen. That is what I was driving at, should have clarified. 

Nothing funny about a weak and putrid line....and right now, both of them suck.  It's ok, take no offense when I laugh out loud at the lack of understanding of line play on here.  I played line, coached it a little, so I watch it pretty intently.  I have two favorites, the Bengals and the FSU Seminoles.  Both teams started out with shitty o line play, only one improved as the season went on and actually had a couple of pretty good games to close out the season.....one against 15th UF.  Wonder what the difference in the two are......hmmmmmm....

(11-29-2016, 04:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And no one likes a shitty trench.

 ......plus one. :andy:

(11-29-2016, 04:44 PM)Wyche Wrote: The problem is, people see the league through Mike Clown's lenses.....they think shiny trinket skill players make the difference, when the game is actually won and lost in the trenches.

That is not really a fair assessment.  Mike Brown has given lots of guys in the trenches top contracts. Willie, Levi, Braham, Bobbie Williams, Whitworth, and Boling all got paid well to stay in Cincy.

And over the last few years they have used a lot of high draft picks on O-linemen (Dre, Zeitler, Ogbuehi, Fisher)

(11-29-2016, 05:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is not really a fair assessment.  Mike Brown has given lots of guys in the trenches top contracts. Willie, Levi, Braham, Bobbie Williams, Whitworth, and Boling all got paid well to stay in Cincy.

And over the last few years they have used a lot of high draft picks on O-linemen (Dre, Zeitler, Ogbuehi, Fisher)

Yeah....you're right, he did in the early "oughts"....then he let that crumble, it was rebuilt too late, and we still haven't addressed the C position.  Prior to that though, he seemed afraid of talent on the line.

Ah the old let's get rid of our QB and every other problem on the team will instanly be resolved thread!!!!

OP - serious question - how has this plan worked out for Cleveland over the last 10 or so years?

**** Sorry OP not you ****

***** Dalton Bashers - serious question - see above *****

(11-29-2016, 05:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is not really a fair assessment.  Mike Brown has given lots of guys in the trenches top contracts. Willie, Levi, Braham, Bobbie Williams, Whitworth, and Boling all got paid well to stay in Cincy.

And over the last few years they have used a lot of high draft picks on O-linemen (Dre, Zeitler, Ogbuehi, Fisher)

That is true its not like we don't invest in the trenches, but it hasn't worked this year that much has to be admited.

However I have no answer to this I am not a coach. I can see the problems but I fully admit fixing them is out of my skill set - I just hope we've got the right answer to this going forwards.

(11-29-2016, 04:34 PM)Marlon23 Wrote: This is my point.  If we did not trade Carson off and had the exact same team, We would have won Playoffs and perhaps even a SB.  I would take young Carson or even knowledgeable Carson in 2011 over Andy Dalton but some how some how Cincy let him walk. 


It is now 2016 going into 2017 and we are no longer able to give any excuses for Andy Dalton.  

But yet you're giving Carson excuses. Who Finally won his first playoff game. And let's not act like Carson was always amazing. He struggled as well, both here and in Arizona.

He was with the Cardinals for 4 years. Got hurt in one season, but outside of last year he has been pretty mundane.

He was bad in 2007 and 2008, even when he played. Struggled in Oakland, which is understandable.

But Palmer has been and always will be a turnover machine. He has 177 INTs and 55 fumbles in 170 games. That's 232 turnovers in 170 games. He averages a little more than an INT a game.

In comparison, Dalton has 79 INTs and 16 fumbles in 89 games. So that's less than an INT per game.

Sure, you can throw in Palmer's 274 passing TDs and 8 rushing TDs in 170 games.
Then you have to throw in Dalton's 136 passing TDs and 17 rushing TDs in 89 games.

Palmer was a very good talent. He has one of the best deep balls. But he was never clutch in key situations nor big games for us. Sure, he won some. But he was never as clutch as some like to believe.

This is his 14th year and he has won one playoff game. It's not like the Cardinals are a bad team. But Palmer was always a turnover machine, and our team has faltered in the playoffs with Dalton's turnovers, so they would have with Carson's.

(11-28-2016, 06:09 PM)Wyche Wrote: Take it easy on em.....most casual fans have ZERO clue about the fundamentals of o line play.

  it looked to me like the oline had the dline contained pretty darn good....there only chance was to put arms up and knock it down. And that is what most dline do when there contained its all they have left to do.... This isn't something new with Andy.  Hes been prone to having balls batted his whole career.  I understand its normal for this to happen from time to time. But when it happens somewhat regular, especially multiple times in one series should you not question the man throwing it?

And I understand what your saying about engaging...how much more can you engage before its holding?

(11-28-2016, 06:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I would think that fans would lose interest when the Bengals go on a losing streak, yet I am seeing is more haters popping up in October and November.

It is almost like all the Dalton haters had to hide in the closet last year and are only showing their faces when we started losing.

I'm am a Die hard...if your good your good...if your not I'm going to say it...im not here cause I want to bash Dalton...its more like frustration because hes going to be our QB for a long time. And I don't think that's good.

(11-29-2016, 04:13 PM)Marlon23 Wrote: We would have won.  I would take Young Carson over Young Andy any day of the week.  Carson is 37 now if not older.  I think that after 6 years of Andy Dalton, with the talent that has been around we have not got it done we will not with him.  I was more than willing to give him 3 years after this year if we made the playoffs again but we did not. 

Carson was 35 last year and coming off the best season of his career. He folded like a lawn chair. Fwiw, I see Palmer and Dalton as equals. Palmer had a better arm, Dalton more athleticism and mastery of the offense. Palmer had to wear a wristband with plays. Palmer threw a better spiral, Dalton is less prone to turnovers. The numbers overall are extremely similar, which proves there's more than one way to get it done. 

The Bengals managed to break both.

(11-29-2016, 07:17 PM)bengalsfansince93 Wrote:   it looked to me like the oline had the dline contained pretty darn good....there only chance was to put arms up and knock it down. And that is what most dline do when there contained its all they have left to do.... This isn't something new with Andy.  Hes been prone to having balls batted his whole career.  I understand its normal for this to happen from time to time. But when it happens somewhat regular, especially multiple times in one series should you not question the man throwing it?

And I understand what your saying about engaging...how much more can you engage before its holding?

I think it was a little of both....a couple of bad arm angles, and the line.  It's pretty simple really, just "punch" them in the chest or anywhere on the torso, and those arms will come down.  If that fails, "submarine" them....although, I am admittedly outdated on the rules.....that may get interpreted as a chop block, which is illegal.  What you have to realize is that the dude is kinda short for a QB, his line needs to keep that in the back of their minds as well.

I definitely agree some of it is on him.....all QBs do it from time to time, but some is on poor technique from the cats up front.  Our scheme isn't aggressive enough for my liking.  Our guys are taught to let the defender come to them and react.  I like violence....nothing better than pulling on a trap play and seeing a poor, unsuspecting DE's eyes widen as he sees a free shot, only to earhole that sumbitch into next week!

EDIT: some times plays are designed to react to the defender and ride him out of the play.....but not every play. I just think you should use an aggressive scheme.....take the shot to the defender, not the other way around. You gotta be smart and utilize your quickness, angles, and NEVER quit on a play....even if you think you're beat. The back, or the QB might see you riding a defender and change direction/step up in the pocket and make a play.

(11-29-2016, 03:50 AM)Junglejuice Wrote: No INT.

Just clearing that up.

Also he didnt get the chance to play in the playoffs with the team he went 10-2 to start the season with.

It was left in the hands of the back up who went 2-2 to finish out 2015.


You honestly just cannot overlook the protection issues if you are a sane human being.
With how much he has been hit this year its no surprise he is seeing ghosts.

It was also the rookie QBS first 4 games of his career.  I think he did pretty darn well considering.  And the team never took the training wheels of him..  And if Marvin didn't go super conservative Marv in the second half of the Broncos gm last year he would have been 3-1.  Now I'm not saying McCarron is the answer but its not fair to judge him on his first four games of his career.  The guy did a  bang up job considering the situation he was thrown into as a rookie

(11-29-2016, 07:31 PM)bengalsfansince93 Wrote: It was also the rookie QBS first 4 games of his career.  I think he did pretty darn well considering.  And the team never took the training wheels of him..  And if Marvin didn't go super conservative Marv in the second half of the Broncos gm last year he would have been 3-1.  Now I'm not saying McCarron is the answer but its not fair to judge him on his first four games of his career.  The guy did a  bang up job considering the situation he was thrown into as a rookie

I was very pleased with his play as a backup.  He coughed up some fumbles, and threw the INT in the playoff games, but otherwise, he didn't get us beat.

(11-28-2016, 12:58 PM)bengalsfansince93 Wrote: Everyone of you guys agreeing that Dalton is not a problem have no clue what your talking about.  You guys must be watching a different team on Sundays? You sure your watching the Bengals?  Watch his play on the field stop looking at these dam stats. And whoever said TD passes don't really matter in judging him?? umm what?? come again?? oh wait that's not his fault at all either.  Lets see what other excuses we can make for Andy.  Hmm no Eifert oh wait he's back. oh wait it must be the oline cause there the ones that batted all those balls at the line yesterday lol.   You guys can come at me with whatever you want. You guys have no clue how to judge talent if you don't feel he's a problem.

You guys kill me!

You're 100% right!! ppl around here are delusional because of the stats, it seems they dont watch the games. Dalton is good when it comes to 1pm games with AJ green. in any primetime game he plays totally different! The guy is not a leader like mccaron and looks scared in big games. Mccarron almost won us a playoff game against pitt with that clutch pass to AJ at the end. Dalton could never do that because hes too nervous for whatever reason.

(11-29-2016, 04:02 PM)seahawkscheat Wrote: we would need an elite defense to be a superbowl contending team with dalton at quarterback we don't have an elite defense plus the team as a whole chokes everytime in the playoffs anyway

So what does it tell you when an entire team chokes in the playoffs? 








Hint: the problem rhymes with Cead Hoach.   

Fire Lewis. That is all

(11-29-2016, 09:57 PM)Fab85 Wrote: You're 100% right!! ppl around here are delusional because of the stats, it seems they dont watch the games. Dalton is good when it comes to 1pm games with AJ green. in any primetime game he plays totally different! The guy is not a leader like mccaron and looks scared in big games. Mccarron almost won us a playoff game against pitt with that clutch pass to AJ at the end. Dalton could never do that because hes too nervous for whatever reason.

Is there a limit on the amount of accounts one person can have? Because someone has way too many.