(04-11-2017, 09:59 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: FA RT?  They don't sign fa.  The didn't even keep their own FA LT.  I blame ebenezer


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It's a little inside (fart) joke.

(04-12-2017, 12:15 AM)BigSeph Wrote: Went 2-2 with him as a starter, the two losses were to the eventual SB champion Denver Broncos in Denver in overtime, and to the Pittsburgh Steelers after the Bengals had the lead and the ball with less than 3 minutes to play.  Before Hill, Pacman and Burfict choked.


This is as stupid as saying "If ANY of the other 31 other teams felt like Tom Brady was a star in the making, they would've (a) drafted him in rounds 1-5 of the 2000 draft...when he was well known as the QB of Michigan, or (b) offered a 1st to the Patriots while he was on the bench behind Bledsoe."
I'm not saying AJM = Tom Brady (despite the similarities in rate passing stats in their first NFL season of experience).  What I'm saying is that your premise is really stupid.
Gosh why didn't teams draft Aaron Rodgers when they all had the chance.  Why didn't teams all draft Drew Brees when they had the chance.  Why didn't teams draft Tony Romo at all, or at least trade for him when he was riding the pine in Dallas?
Don't quit your day job, whatever that is.

So like I said...2-3 as starter.

By your logic, I could claim Jeff Driskell is the next Tom Brady. It's not like it's been proven he's not. The rest of the league has had 5 games of NFL tape on McCarron for the last 2 offseasons. If he were as impressive in that span as you claim, and is "a star in the making", then he should've been moved last year. Like I said, I'm sure the Bengals aren't asking THAT much. A 1st would certainly get it done. Probably a 2nd. Yet, as of now, he's still a Bengal.

(04-12-2017, 12:15 AM)BigSeph Wrote: Went 2-2 with him as a starter, the two losses were to the eventual SB champion Denver Broncos in Denver in overtime, and to the Pittsburgh Steelers after the Bengals had the lead and the ball with less than 3 minutes to play.  Before Hill, Pacman and Burfict choked.


This is as stupid as saying "If ANY of the other 31 other teams felt like Tom Brady was a star in the making, they would've (a) drafted him in rounds 1-5 of the 2000 draft...when he was well known as the QB of Michigan, or (b) offered a 1st to the Patriots while he was on the bench behind Bledsoe."
I'm not saying AJM = Tom Brady (despite the similarities in rate passing stats in their first NFL season of experience).  What I'm saying is that your premise is really stupid.
Gosh why didn't teams draft Aaron Rodgers when they all had the chance.  Why didn't teams all draft Drew Brees when they had the chance.  Why didn't teams draft Tony Romo at all, or at least trade for him when he was riding the pine in Dallas?
Don't quit your day job, whatever that is.

Aaron Rodgers was the 2nd QB taken in the draft by a team that did not even need a QB. He must have been kind of wanted.

Drew Brees was also the 2nd QB taken in draft after Michael Vick. 

Not every team drafting is looking for a QB early. 

Tony Romo went under radar per coming from Ohio Valley Conference yet still should have been drafted. 

Brady was a victim of being forced to split time with freshman Drew Henson and was often booed by his own fans even though he did well. Very odd situation that have never understood. 

Believe the bottom two support your stand but not the first two. Just do not see AJM becoming one of these guys, maybe an adequate QB but not elite. Maybe not making an adequate one either.  

(04-12-2017, 01:34 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Aaron Rodgers was the 2nd QB taken in the draft by a team that did not even need a QB. He must have been kind of wanted.

Drew Brees was also the 2nd QB taken in draft after Michael Vick. 

Not every team drafting is looking for a QB early. 

Tony Romo went under radar per coming from Ohio Valley Conference yet still should have been drafted. 

Brady was a victim of being forced to split time with freshman Drew Henson and was often booed by his own fans even though he did well. Very odd situation that have never understood. 

Believe the bottom two support your stand but not the first two. Just do not see AJM becoming one of these guys, maybe an adequate QB but not elite. Maybe not making an adequate one either.  

How could any fan under appreciate their QB? Shame on those Michigan fans.

You hit the Nail on the Head with the word "Maybe".
"Maybe" is the Key to this whole conversation.

The Truth is that AJ McCarron has the odds stacked against him even becoming as Good as Andy Dalton has proven to be. Dalton is a proven Top 15 at worst NFL QB.

AJ has yet to prove that. He still may but he has an uphill climb to get to really proving he is on Dalton's level let alone Tom Brady's. You don't prove it in a handful of games.

If Andy Dalton and AJ both went up Publicly for a Trade the interest from teams for Dalton would be noticeably Higher than for AJ. I believe we got a 1st and 2nd rounder for Carson Palmer and that trade occurred in 2011. The QB market is more expensive now so Dalton could cost a team more than that. AJ McCarron appears to be in the 2nd round pick value range.

(04-12-2017, 12:15 AM)BigSeph Wrote: Went 2-2 with him as a starter, the two losses were to the eventual SB champion Denver Broncos in Denver in overtime, and to the Pittsburgh Steelers after the Bengals had the lead and the ball with less than 3 minutes to play.  Before Hill, Pacman and Burfict choked.


This is as stupid as saying "If ANY of the other 31 other teams felt like Tom Brady was a star in the making, they would've (a) drafted him in rounds 1-5 of the 2000 draft...when he was well known as the QB of Michigan, or (b) offered a 1st to the Patriots while he was on the bench behind Bledsoe."
I'm not saying AJM = Tom Brady (despite the similarities in rate passing stats in their first NFL season of experience).  What I'm saying is that your premise is really stupid.
Gosh why didn't teams draft Aaron Rodgers when they all had the chance.  Why didn't teams all draft Drew Brees when they had the chance.  Why didn't teams draft Tony Romo at all, or at least trade for him when he was riding the pine in Dallas?
Don't quit your day job, whatever that is.

Dalton beat Denver when Peyton was still good, without AJ Green.....jus' sayin'.

(04-12-2017, 08:41 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: How could any fan under appreciate their QB? Shame on those Michigan fans.

Almost to that point as well. 

(04-12-2017, 10:27 AM)Wyche Wrote: Dalton beat Denver when Peyton was still good, without AJ Green.....jus' sayin'.

AJ is not on Dalton's level.

That much is for sure right now.

If they were both on the block it would not just be noticeably different. It would not even be a race, every team needing a QB would call. 

(04-12-2017, 10:36 AM)Go Cards Wrote: AJ is not on Dalton's level.

That much is for sure right now.

If they were both on the block it would not just be noticeably different. It would not even be a race, every team needing a QB would call. 

McCarron is a very good backup, and will most likely make a serviceable starter.  That being said, all they had to do at Denver was go from man coverage to zone, and he was lost.  All one has to do is watch the tape.  He was on fire in the first half, and became non existent in the second.  What was the difference?  Also, anyone who doesn't think the offense was scaled WAY back when he took over either needs an eye exam, or is kidding themselves.  He's a good guy, has good qualities, and hustles.....but some sort of wizard savior, he is not.  There is a reason he sits behind Dalton.....  

(04-12-2017, 10:36 AM)Go Cards Wrote: AJ is not on Dalton's level.

That much is for sure right now.

If they were both on the block it would not just be noticeably different. It would not even be a race, every team needing a QB would call. 

I agree.

In 2015, Dalton helped lead this team to an 8-0 start and was 10-2 before he went down to the thumb injury very early in the Steelers game.
I'm counting the first Steelers game as McCarron's first game even though he didn't start because he played a majority of the game (32 passes vs Dalton's 5). In those 5 games (including playoffs), the Bengals were 2-3. Some might say, "Well yea, but the 3 losses came to the Super Bowl champs and another good playoff team!", but I counter with, "Fair, but the only wins came against the 5-11 Ravens and 5-11 49ers."

When Dalton was at the helm, the same Bengals team beat the following playoff-bound teams: Seahawks, Steelers, Chiefs.

Also, in regards to health, it should be noted that McCarron has missed more games due to injury in three years than Dalton has in six years. For those that may wonder what the heck I'm talking about, remember that McCarron was shelved for most of 2014 due to a shoulder injury and Josh Johnson was the backup QB at that time.

McCarron could be a solid to very good starting QB in the NFL. But anyone who is already anointing him better than Dalton is just hopeful because of the unknown. I personally think McCarron will be about the same level as Dalton or Alex Smith.

(04-12-2017, 10:41 AM)Wyche Wrote: McCarron is a very good backup, and will most likely make a serviceable starter.  That being said, all they had to do at Denver was go from man coverage to zone, and he was lost.  All one has to do is watch the tape.  He was on fire in the first half, and became non existent in the second.  What was the difference?  Also, anyone who doesn't think the offense was scaled WAY back when he took over either needs an eye exam, or is kidding themselves.  He's a good guy, has good qualities, and hustles.....but some sort of wizard savior, he is not.  There is a reason he sits behind Dalton.....  

Do not hate AJM and think he "may" be a good NFL QB. 

The book is not written yet and the first chapter was ok. Could build on that foundation or stay that way throughout. 

If many NFL scouts thought differently we would already have received a #1 pick for him. 

Good kid and hope he does well, but we need help in other areas presently which makes a luxury of a back up QB expendable in my book. If not for all our holes I would say keep him forever. 

(04-12-2017, 11:05 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Do not hate AJM and think he "may" be a good NFL QB. 

The book is not written yet and the first chapter was ok. Could build on that foundation or stay that way throughout. 

If many NFL scouts thought differently we would already have received a #1 pick for him. 

Good kid and hope he does well, but we need help in other areas presently which makes a luxury of a back up QB expendable in my book. If not for all our holes I would say keep him forever. 

I agree with this, but we also don't know what has or has not been offered for him.  I also think it is grossly unfair to compare 2015 Dalton to the five games McCarron played in 2015.  That was Dalton's fifth year as the starter, his fifth year getting all the first team reps.  I hear people say "McCarron held onto the ball too long", "he didn't go through his progression as fast as Dalton"... obviously, because it was Dalton's fifth year as the starter.  If he would have come into his first real game action as a pro and either matched or out performed our fifth year starter that would be a real problem and an indictment of Andy.

Personally, I think McCarron is going to be what Andy Dalton is... an above average NFL starting quarterback.  Is he going to be a perennial All Pro, future Hall of Fame, record setting quarterback?  No, but neither is Andy Dalton.  I also think the Browns could be a good situation for a guy like McCarron, but according to reports over the last 24 hours they seem to be falling in love with Trubisky so we may never know.

(04-12-2017, 11:05 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Do not hate AJM and think he "may" be a good NFL QB. 

The book is not written yet and the first chapter was ok. Could build on that foundation or stay that way throughout. 

If many NFL scouts thought differently we would already have received a #1 pick for him. 

Good kid and hope he does well, but we need help in other areas presently which makes a luxury of a back up QB expendable in my book. If not for all our holes I would say keep him forever. 

Agree.

Too many differen t issues getting twisted together.

1. How much do you value a good back up QB?

2. How good is McCarron? What can we get for him?

3. Is value we get greater than value he has as our back up QB?

I think everyone here would let him go for a first round pick. And I don't think anyone would give him away for a fourth rounder. The discussion is where do you fall in between.

Also want to add that I am pretty sure AJ will just be a restricted free agent next year. So we will not lose him "for nothing" instead we can probably keep him anothe year at less than $4 million or get a high draft pick (first or second round tender) if someone signs him away.

(04-12-2017, 10:41 AM)Wyche Wrote: McCarron is a very good backup, and will most likely make a serviceable starter.  That being said, all they had to do at Denver was go from man coverage to zone, and he was lost.  All one has to do is watch the tape.  He was on fire in the first half, and became non existent in the second.  What was the difference?  Also, anyone who doesn't think the offense was scaled WAY back when he took over either needs an eye exam, or is kidding themselves.  He's a good guy, has good qualities, and hustles.....but some sort of wizard savior, he is not.  There is a reason he sits behind Dalton.....  

Exactly. The guy has natural leadership qualities, solid accuracy and the game isn't too big for him. He doesn't look overwhelmed at all when he's in there, and that's all you can ask for in a backup. I'm 50/50 on whether he'll eventually get a shot somewhere, whether it's via trade or as a FA. Maybe he will...or maybe we're all (some of us especially so) overrating him. Jim O has suggested as much.

If he does get traded, I don't think he'll garner more than a 2nd round pick - if that - and as a starter, I don't think he'll have long term success. His arm would be among the worst in the NFL (among starters). He struggled with zone and disguised blitzes. He hangs on to the ball a lot. He's pretty oblivious in the pocket. Maybe these things get better, maybe not. It took Dalton 5 seasons to reach his full potential. McCarron is 27 in September.

To sum up my stance on Mac, I understand some optimism. He had a great college career where he was a well-known star and he exceeded expectations somewhat when Dalton went down. I get all that, but when you have guys claiming "star in the making", or "next Tom Brady", and saying we should get a 1st round pick for him, I feel a need to check these guys. 

(04-12-2017, 12:21 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Exactly. The guy has natural leadership qualities, solid accuracy and the game isn't too big for him. He doesn't look overwhelmed at all when he's in there, and that's all you can ask for in a backup. I'm 50/50 on whether he'll eventually get a shot somewhere, whether it's via trade or as a FA. Maybe he will...or maybe we're all (some of us especially so) overrating him. Jim O has suggested as much.

If he does get traded, I don't think he'll garner more than a 2nd round pick - if that - and as a starter, I don't think he'll have long term success. His arm would be among the worst in the NFL (among starters). He struggled with zone and disguised blitzes. He hangs on to the ball a lot. He's pretty oblivious in the pocket. Maybe these things get better, maybe not. It took Dalton 5 seasons to reach his full potential. McCarron is 27 in September.

To sum up my stance on Mac, I understand some optimism. He had a great college career where he was a well-known star and he exceeded expectations somewhat when Dalton went down. I get all that, but when you have guys claiming "star in the making", or "next Tom Brady", and saying we should get a 1st round pick for him, I feel a need to check these guys. 

Pretty much my sentiments exactly.  At worst, I think he'd make a pretty good stop gap QB.  I don't think the ceiling is much more than that, but I've been fooled before.  Whatever his future holds, I wish him the best.  I really like having him as our backup....I'd like to keep him, but he has bigger aspirations.  Can't blame the guy for that, and that's what you want in a player as well.

(04-12-2017, 12:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Too many differen t issues getting twisted together.

1.  How much do you value a good back up QB?

2.  How good is McCarron?  What can we get for him?

3.  Is value we get greater than value he has as our back up QB?

I think everyone here would let him go for a first round pick.  And I don't think anyone would give him away for a fourth rounder.  The discussion is where do you fall in between.

Also want to add that I am pretty sure AJ will just be a restricted free agent next year.  So we will not lose him "for nothing"  instead we can probably keep him anothe year at less than $4 million or get a high draft pick (first or second round tender) if someone signs him away.

1. Somewhat. Admittedly, I used to complain about guys like Gradkowski, Josh Johnson and Jordan Palmer. We can do better than that even if we trade McCarron. 

2. McCarron is a top notch backup, but would be a bottom rung starter. Someone a team would move on from pretty quickly once they saw what they had. I'd place his max value as a 2nd rounder. Maybe even a 3rd or later. If I'm being honest, it's really hard to tell.

3. Depends. If it's a 2nd or 3rd, I'd pull the trigger. The more talent we can get at other positions, the better. This team needs help. Dalton isn't likely to get hurt, certainly isn't likely to get hurt for a long period of time, and there are backups we can get on the open market that could be just as good (but with less long term potential...which we don't need). Available right now are...

Ryan Fitzpatrick
RGIII
Shaun Hill (37 years old, but should have plenty left)
Blaine Gabbert (improved a great deal in SF)
Dan Orlovsky 
Christian Ponder
Thad Lewis
Ryan Nassib
Austin Davis (probably the guy I'd want, he had a great run in St Louis)

Some might laugh at some of these names, but just because a guy flamed out as a full-time starter doesn't mean he'd make a bad backup. I really like Gabbert or Austin Davis.

(04-12-2017, 11:31 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: I agree with this, but we also don't know what has or has not been offered for him.  I also think it is grossly unfair to compare 2015 Dalton to the five games McCarron played in 2015.  That was Dalton's fifth year as the starter, his fifth year getting all the first team reps.  I hear people say "McCarron held onto the ball too long", "he didn't go through his progression as fast as Dalton"... obviously, because it was Dalton's fifth year as the starter.  If he would have come into his first real game action as a pro and either matched or out performed our fifth year starter that would be a real problem and an indictment of Andy.

Personally, I think McCarron is going to be what Andy Dalton is... an above average NFL starting quarterback.  Is he going to be a perennial All Pro, future Hall of Fame, record setting quarterback?  No, but neither is Andy Dalton.  I also think the Browns could be a good situation for a guy like McCarron, but according to reports over the last 24 hours they seem to be falling in love with Trubisky so we may never know.

Agree mostly but believe AJM will be a step below Dalton when it is said and done. 

Like you pointed out he already does not get the same work in as Andy and if the Bengals keep him as a back up for 2 more years it will not help his cause. 

That being said the greatest job in the NFL may be a lifetime back up QB. Will still get paid and be able to walk and still chew bubblegum at the same time in your 50's. 

(04-12-2017, 12:38 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Agree mostly but believe AJM will be a step below Dalton when it is said and done. 

Like you pointed out he already does not get the same work in as Andy and if the Bengals keep him as a back up for 2 more years it will not help his cause. 

That being said the greatest job in the NFL may be a lifetime back up QB. Will still get paid and be able to walk and still chew bubblegum at the same time in your 50's. 

True, but do you really want a guy who is happy being the backup?  I watched a lot of McCarron at Alabama and think he is too competitive to be happy being a backup.  There was a play in the National Championship game against Notre Dame where his center was not snapping the ball quick enough and McCarron let him have it.  The center shoved him, but McCarron did not back down.  Keep in mind they were leading by about 30 points when this happened.  I remember thinking "this kid does not let up".

Bill Polian puts Mccaron's value at a first possibly more fwiw. He was on ESPN a month ago saying he would go after Mccarron before Garroppalo. He's a former general manager so I give his position credence.

(04-12-2017, 01:08 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Bill Polian puts Mccaron's value at a first possibly more fwiw. He was on ESPN a month ago saying he would go after Mccarron before Garroppalo. He's a former general manager so I give his position credence.

Certainly holds merit.... :andy: