(04-24-2017, 05:05 PM)Au165 Wrote: Honestly, I don't think FO has been our issue as far as having the players. I think the issue has been the coaches ability to use them. No one was complaining after the drafts that built the core of this team and we were winning.

That's one way of looking at it I suppose....but then you gotta lay at the feet of the FO for retaining these coaches.....some of whom have been here 25 years.....

(04-24-2017, 04:13 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Pretty sure that it wasn't the case before they got the baseball FO guys. Browns have a ton of picks the next two drafts and probably the best OL in the division right now. Wouldn't be surprised if they start looking pretty good on the field in the next year or two.

They are basically following the Jimmy Johnson method, which is the more picks the better.  You're going to miss on a number of them, so the more you have, the greater chances of finding success.

People can bash them for "brining in a baseball guy", but at least they are trying.  They are not doing the same thing year after year, hoping that somehow it brings them success.  Like you, I don't think they are that far off from finding more success.

Since when did size matter?

(04-24-2017, 06:07 PM)depthchart Wrote: That small Front Office has done a lot right.

Think of how many QBs the Browns have drafted since we traded away Carson Palmer.
With their first try at a QB after Palmer the Bengals got Dalton then a few years later AJ McCarron.
Excellent results with minimal tries.
The Browns have used multiple first round picks on Clowns since Palmer left the Bengals and still are in QB trouble.

Similar issue with our running backs.
Jeremy Hill and Gio Bernard are both second round picks that have done well.
Good results with minimal tries.

Also replaced Sanu & Jones decently last year with Lafell & Boyd plus Core.

They still have to get the O-line right but they got a good look at what they have last year.
I have a feeling they will understand what they will have to do and do it with the O-line too.

While they do some things good...EVERY TEAM in the NFL has won a playoff game since we last have. And 80% of the league has won 5+ games since we have.

The goal is to win playoff games. We have THE WORST front office in sports based on that metric.

Scouting department size also factors into free agency and game planning.

(04-24-2017, 08:35 PM)Wyche Wrote: That's one way of looking at it I suppose....but then you gotta lay at the feet of the FO for retaining these coaches.....some of whom have been here 25 years.....

Scouts also scout free agents...and other team for advanced game-planning.

And you make a great point...IF the issue is retaining coaches...that falls on the front office too.

(04-24-2017, 08:31 PM)Wyche Wrote: See...this is the shit that makes me vote you where I did in the awards thread.


Yes...those numbers do matter. The more eyes watching...the better. Plus...our coaches have to do more scouting....takes away from their day to day coaching duties....which may explain some things.

Much appreciated.



There's another huge negative to coaches doing scouting and you generally see it in the NBA too...and that is IF a coach acting as the scout drafts a guy that he likes, he's more likely to continue playing him even if he isn't performing to prove he was right to pick him. Whereas if a GM brings a guy in that doesn't play well...a coach will just replace him.

You see this a lot in the NBA. It's really had to find good examples of coaches being good personnel people too for this reason.

It explains guys like Maualuga and Peko being stuck with. It explains Bodine. If Bodine wasn't picked by Paul Alexander...maybe they cut bait on him and replace him. But instead PA is going to irrationally stick with him.

(04-24-2017, 08:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What math?

What I see is the worst team in the AFCN has the biggest front office.

Please show the math you are talking about.

Theres no math that will help the idea that front office size matters.


If you were to force a correlation between the 2 I guess the best method would be to take the front office numbers of the last 10 superbowl winners and average it out.


But our problem is quality of staff and players. Not quantity.

We have the smallest front office by far in the NFL. We also have the longest playoff drought.

We're essentially operated like a mom and pop shop compared to other teams.

(04-24-2017, 04:02 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: With the Draft nearly upon us...lets take a look at the people who will be making these selections:

Steelers:
The Steelers have 19 people in their 'Football Operations' Department.
http://www.steelers.com/team/front-office.html

Bengals:
The Bengals have 9 people in their 'Player Personnel' Department.
http://www.bengals.com/team/staff-directory.html

Ravens:
 RTheavens have 25 people in their 'Player Personnel' Department.
http://www.baltimoreravens.com/team/front-office.html

Before you discount that numbers matter...both of these teams have won 2 Super Bowls each since we've won a playoff game and they've appeared in a combined 6!

Browns:
The Browns have 32 people in their 'Player Personnel' Department:
http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/front-office.html

LOL on chaplain listed on Ravens....that is our problem, when all else fails we have the chaplain make a pick?

Player PersonnelNAME
TITLEOzzie Newsome
General Manager & Executive Vice President
Eric DeCosta
Assistant General Manager
Pat Moriarty
Senior Vice President of Football Administration
Vincent Newsome
Director of Pro Personnel
Joe Hortiz
Director of College Scouting
Jessica Markison
Director of Football Administration
George Kokinis
Senior Personnel Assistant
O.J. Brigance
Senior Advisor to Player Engagement
Harry Swayne
Director of Player Engagement
Chad Alexander
Assistant Director of Pro Personnel
Milt Hendrickson
National Scout
Lonnie Young
National Scout
Mark Azevedo
Northeast Area Scout
David Blackburn
West Area Scout
Ian Cunningham
Southeast/Southwest Area Scout
Jack Glowik
Midwest/Southwest Area Scout
Dwaune Jones
Midwest Area Scout
Andrew Raphael
Southeast Area Scout
David McDonald
Football Systems Developer
Brandon Berning
Player Personnel Assistant
Joey Cleary
Player Personnel Assistant
Corey Krawiec
Player Personnel Assistant
Patrick Williams
Player Personnel Assistant
Maggie Litz Domanowski
Player Personnel Administrative Assistant
Johnny Shelton
Team Chaplain

(04-24-2017, 10:55 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: LOL on chaplain listed on Ravens....that is our problem, when all us fails we have the chaplain make a pick?

Player PersonnelNAME
TITLEOzzie Newsome
General Manager & Executive Vice President
Eric DeCosta
Assistant General Manager
Pat Moriarty
Senior Vice President of Football Administration
Vincent Newsome
Director of Pro Personnel
Joe Hortiz
Director of College Scouting
Jessica Markison
Director of Football Administration
George Kokinis
Senior Personnel Assistant
O.J. Brigance
Senior Advisor to Player Engagement
Harry Swayne
Director of Player Engagement
Chad Alexander
Assistant Director of Pro Personnel
Milt Hendrickson
National Scout
Lonnie Young
National Scout
Mark Azevedo
Northeast Area Scout
David Blackburn
West Area Scout
Ian Cunningham
Southeast/Southwest Area Scout
Jack Glowik
Midwest/Southwest Area Scout
Dwaune Jones
Midwest Area Scout
Andrew Raphael
Southeast Area Scout
David McDonald
Football Systems Developer
Brandon Berning
Player Personnel Assistant
Joey Cleary
Player Personnel Assistant
Corey Krawiec
Player Personnel Assistant
Patrick Williams
Player Personnel Assistant
Maggie Litz Domanowski
Player Personnel Administrative Assistant
Johnny Shelton
Team Chaplain

Me and my wife went to this Christian Marriage Conference and one of the speakers was a chaplain for the Bengals and Reds in the 90's. I waited to see him after...but some lady kept talking to him so I didn't get to. I was going to ask him about the Bengals and what that was like.

(04-24-2017, 11:04 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Me and my wife went to this Christian Marriage Conference and one of the speakers was a chaplain for the Bengals and Reds in the 90's. I waited to see him after...but some lady kept talking to him so I didn't get to. I was going to ask him about the Bengals and what that was like.

He may have made the A. Smith if we had a chaplain on our personnel dept....LOL

On  a serious note, our staff being smaller may be a bigger deal than we realize

(04-24-2017, 05:45 PM)J24 Wrote: Its sad that the son of Paul brown ( the most revolutionary and renaissance man in modern professional sports) won't change any of his clearly failed ways or take any risks what's so ever.

What's truly sad is that this tired and false narrative persists.

(04-24-2017, 04:02 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: With the Draft nearly upon us...lets take a look at the people who will be making these selections:

Steelers:
The Steelers have 19 people in their 'Football Operations' Department.
http://www.steelers.com/team/front-office.html

Bengals:
The Bengals have 9 people in their 'Player Personnel' Department.
http://www.bengals.com/team/staff-directory.html

Ravens:
 RTheavens have 25 people in their 'Player Personnel' Department.
http://www.baltimoreravens.com/team/front-office.html

Before you discount that numbers matter...both of these teams have won 2 Super Bowls each since we've won a playoff game and they've appeared in a combined 6!

Browns:
The Browns have 32 people in their 'Player Personnel' Department:
http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/front-office.html

If you're contending that front office size matters with this info, then you are also contradicting your own hypothesis with the evidence.

In the scheme of reasons that the Bengals have not won a playoff game since 1990, front office size is probably pretty far down the list of relevant reasons.

(04-25-2017, 12:32 AM)Beaker Wrote: If you're contending that front office size matters with this info, then you are also contradicting your own hypothesis with the evidence.

In the scheme of reasons that the Bengals have not won a playoff game since 1990, front office size is probably pretty far down the list of relevant reasons.

Hard to say.  Claiming the Browns having a FO shows that FO size doesn't matter is like saying your great aunt who smoked 2 packs a day but lived to be 95 is proof that smoking doesn't kill you.  The Browns are a total outlier of an organization that "proves" that free agency, the draft, 1st round QBs, late-round QBs, and pretty much anything else they've tried DOESN'T WORK.  Yes, they have a GM and we don't.  They have an indoor practice facility and we don't, they have lots of scouts and a big FO and we don't.

No halfways decent NFL franchise should ever compare any aspect of what they do to the Browns.  Nuts to the Browns.  Hey look, the Steelers and Ravens have a bigger FO than we do.  Well, that doesn't matter because we've convinced ourselves that we are way better than the Ravens and that we are either as good as the Steelers OR we are better and they just keep getting lucky, or will totally get old and suck any year now, or are cheaters or something.


How does our FO compare to the more relevant teams in the NFL?  That's the question.  Hell, who needs a crystal ball to see that Mike Brown is the problem and having a small FO stocked with his pals and family members is just another symptom.  Would we win with a FO of 19+ people?  Maybe, but we'll never find out so let's just laugh at the Browns.

I have a huge front office.






Sorry. I had to make the joke.

(04-24-2017, 10:08 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The goal is to win playoff games. We have THE WORST front office in sports based on that metric.

And if we win a playoff game this year and the Patriots don't then your metric will prove that the bengals have abetter front office than th4e Patriots.

That is why you can no rely on that one little measurement.  You have top look at a lot more than who has won a playoff game more recently.

Do the Rams have a better front office than the Bengals?  What about the Lions, Bills, Bucs, Dolphins, Jaguars?  You think all of those teams are being run better than the bengals right now?

(04-25-2017, 08:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: And if we win a playoff game this year and the Patriots don't then your metric will prove that the bengals have abetter front office than th4e Patriots.

That is why you can no rely on that one little measurement.  You have top look at a lot more than who has won a playoff game more recently.

Do the Rams have a better front office than the Bengals?  What about the Lions, Bills, Bucs, Dolphins, Jaguars?  You think all of those teams are being run better than the bengals right now?

Well of course at some point quality factors in. It isn't as simple as saying have a 30 person front-office and you win.

But, our small front office hasn't won a playoff game in 26+ years...

It's undeniable that having the smallest front office in the NFL hasn't lead to playoff success.

(04-25-2017, 08:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: And if we win a playoff game this year and the Patriots don't then your metric will prove that the bengals have abetter front office than th4e Patriots.

That is why you can no rely on that one little measurement.  You have top look at a lot more than who has won a playoff game more recently.

Do the Rams have a better front office than the Bengals?  What about the Lions, Bills, Bucs, Dolphins, Jaguars?  You think all of those teams are being run better than the bengals right now?

Smallest front office size in the NFL and since our last playoff win:


- 23 teams have been to a Super Bowl. 72% of the league
- Every team besides the Browns, Texans and Lions has won at least 4 playoff games
- 11 teams have won at least 11 playoff games
- 26 teams have at least 5 playoff wins, which is how many the Bengals have in their 49 year history
- 13 teams have been to multiple Super Bowls 
- 14 teams have won a Super Bowl

We can't even win 1 single playoff game and 23 teams have been to the Super Bowl since we last did.

While I'm not saying the Bengals don't need more staff I'd rather see a smaller staff that worked well together rather than 32 people who don't. My point being I think if you add someone to the staff they have to mesh well with the rest of the staff and contribute to the drafting process without hindering what we already have in place.

32 people is a lot of people and a lot of voices that need to be heard. If they aren't on the same page then this could be part of the issue with the Browns. I was just reading the other day about how Pettine (whatever their last HC's name was.) had not interest in Justin Gilbert and with no pre-draft interview Ray Farmer made the pick.

(04-25-2017, 08:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: And if we win a playoff game this year and the Patriots don't then your metric will prove that the bengals have abetter front office than th4e Patriots.

That is why you can no rely on that one little measurement.  You have top look at a lot more than who has won a playoff game more recently.

Do the Rams have a better front office than the Bengals?  What about the Lions, Bills, Bucs, Dolphins, Jaguars?  You think all of those teams are being run better than the bengals right now?

I did not read  Pistons post as the silver bullet has been found and if the FO expands, we win. There is no silver bullet, it is a series of things that have cost our team success. It is coaching, player development, drafts, FA and a host of factors. One of those factors could be small scouting/personnel department is how I read it.

I do agree with your earlier post, MB gets chastised for his poor performance running the team in the 90's, but he has done a good job overall the past decade. He can't help Palmer getting injured against the Steelers or a guy who rarely fumbles fumbling and costing us a playoff win and who knows what would have come next. Players have to perform in big moments (playoffs) and our players have not.