(05-29-2017, 07:08 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: His weakness in college was his route running, he cleans this up look the hell out.

I am thinking less and less of the receivers coach at Ole Miss.  Treadwell supposedly has all kinds of issues that he has had difficulty correcting and Core was very sloppy when he came out as well.  I think it was Urban that said during a pre-draft workout that he showed Core something he was doing on his takeoff and Core immediately adjusted and improved.  Urban took special note of the guy's coachability and they ended up drafting him.  He could end up being a bigger steal that Marvin Jones. 

I just love the guy's attitude.  Let's see Mike Mitchell try to assbag Core and end up knocked out himself.  

I'll add this...if Core has progressed as the Hobson articles are eluding to, Erickson is the the one on the hottest seat.
Core looked like a much better WR than Erickson last year, so him improving on that should widen that gap (unless Erickson has made at least similar strides as a WR, which we haven't even heard anything of the like).

I think Erickson could (and should) be the one dropped if only 6 are kept.
Everyone supporting Erickson has been talking about his return value at both KR and PR.
But while everyone points to Erickson's very good season last year at KR, he wasn't great at PR.
In college, Erickson was primarily a PR and only had two KR attempts. What this tells me is that needing a lot of KR experience isn't needed to become a good KR in the NFL.
Also, when looking at PR production in college, Tyler Boyd was a better PR than Erickson and I believe Boyd could take over that role. Adam Jones should be able to take a few attempts too. When looking at KR, there are plenty of options including Adam Jones, Brandon Wilson (44 attempts in college, 25.5 YPA), Joe Mixon (22 KR attempts in college, 22.9 YPA), Tyler Boyd (46 attempts in college, 24.4 YPA), and John Ross (86 attempts in college, 24.1 YPA).
Last, people talk about how he was the leader in KR yardage and second in YPA with eligible players, but the eligibility cutoff makes it so the list is only 10 players deep. A majority of teams are sharing return duties, and if you expand the list to 15+ attempts instead, Erickson's ranking in YPA is actually not second.

TL;DR - While Erickson had a good season at KR, he didn't need much experience to succeed at that (so lack of experience shouldn't prevent others taking the job), he didn't have a great season as a PR (which he actually had more experience with), there are a bevy of other options that can do PR/KR, KR is being phased out more than PR, and he doesn't offer much as a WR.

Just a couple of offseasons ago during OTAs Jake Kumerow was being talked up as having the fastest release of all the WRS on the team....

(05-31-2017, 08:57 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Core had four catches for 82 yards against the Ravens in his second start in the NFL.  The Ravens were 7th in total defense and 9th against the pass.  I was at that game, and they were afraid of him getting over the top of them.  (sidenote:  this is why I am so excited about the Ross pick....)  The 31 yard reception he made showed his physical nature as well.  

I realize that one game does not make an NFL career, but he didn't have AJ or EIfert drawing coverage away from him in that game.  I think Core could become a real key piece of this offense in 2017.  

That's fair, but that Ravens defense was completely done for at that point. Core had the opposite experience of the 100 target, 3 catch game against the Texans. Neither game defines him at all at this point, but he has a lot more to do. I just don't see where he can fit in the offense this upcoming year. Overall the final spot will be who is better on the coverage unit and Erickson has that edge currently, especially with added return experience.

(05-31-2017, 11:11 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I'll add this...if Core has progressed as the Hobson articles are eluding to, Erickson is the the one on the hottest seat.
Core looked like a much better WR than Erickson last year, so him improving on that should widen that gap (unless Erickson has made at least similar strides as a WR, which we haven't even heard anything of the like).

I think Erickson could (and should) be the one dropped if only 6 are kept.
Everyone supporting Erickson has been talking about his return value at both KR and PR.
But while everyone points to Erickson's very good season last year at KR, he wasn't great at PR.
In college, Erickson was primarily a PR and only had two KR attempts. What this tells me is that needing a lot of KR experience isn't needed to become a good KR in the NFL.
Also, when looking at PR production in college, Tyler Boyd was a better PR than Erickson and I believe Boyd could take over that role. Adam Jones should be able to take a few attempts too. When looking at KR, there are plenty of options including Adam Jones, Joe Mixon (22 KR attempts in college, 22.9 YPA), Tyler Boyd (46 attempts in college, 24.4 YPA), and John Ross (86 attempts in college, 24.1 YPA).
Last, people talk about how he was the leader in KR yardage and second in YPA with eligible players, but the eligibility cutoff makes it so the list is only 10 players deep. A majority of teams are sharing return duties, and if you expand the list to 15+ attempts instead, Erickson's ranking in YPA is actually not second.

TL;DR - While Erickson had a good season at KR, he didn't need much experience to succeed at that (so lack of experience shouldn't prevent others taking the job), he didn't have a great season as a PR (which he actually had more experience with), there are a bevy of other options that can do PR/KR, KR is being phased out more than PR, and he doesn't offer much as a WR.

To put Erickson's year in perspective, he was 1st among rookies in KR yards and 4th in PR yardage.  His 810 KR yards nearly doubled that of the 2nd best rookie at 432.  It's not really realistic to think that another rookie will be able to do the same.

For another, how many rookies were the fans saying were going to unseat Brandon Tate, but failed, and he was an average KR and PR?  Erickson, as a rookie, was a very good KR and an average PR, so it will be that much tougher to unseat him. 

The big issue that I have with keeping Core and dropping Erickson is Erickson had 57 touches last year on returns, and that doesn't count fair catches and touchbacks.  Even going with the general consensus that Core is a better WR, there's not much reason to think Core will get much more than 20 touches he had last year with the guys in front of him, so why cut a guy who will get 50+ touches for a guy who will be lucky to get 25?  It's a lot easier to find a guy who can replace Core's production from last year than Erickson's.

(05-31-2017, 08:50 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I don't understand how Malone would be ranked ahead of Core and Erickson when he has had zero NFL production thus far, and is also extremely raw.

Draft position was based on potential, but Core showed excellent coachability.  They raved about how quickly he picked up the nuances of NFL route running.  Erickson had an outstanding rookie season after a slow start and is also a capable backup slot WR.  

Malone has done nothing thus far.  

Simple, Malone was drafted in the fourth round and considered somewhat of a steal.  Putting him on the PS, means some other team will pick him up for sure.  He was drafted as a long term prospect who won't play much this year, but the coaches seem to think that he's already ahead of where Marvin Jones was in his first rookie camp according to a Hobson article.  Since they will not put him on the PS or cut him, Malone will be one of the top 6.  That means, the cuts come down to whether they value Erickson's return ability (not sure where he will rank in this aspect once Wilson, Mixon and maybe Ross have shown their skills), over Core's potential as a receiving threat (right now it's nothing more than potential).  Based on what he has shown so far in a real game, he looks like number 7 to me.  Maybe the Bengals keep 7 and no one gets cut.  I don't think Core will be developing into a consistent player this year, but I hope to be wrong.  I do however think that Core should be kept as I believe he will become a solid player next year as they phase LaFell out of the offense.   

Considering that this team took many years to find a replacement for Brandon Tate, and kept keeping him over and over, surprising some of us after like the fourth year of keeping him in a row, I wouldn't at all be surprised if they decide to keep Erickson simply out of a reluctance to mess with special teams and Erickson has proven to be solid (a quality that they value in their return guys).

(05-31-2017, 12:38 PM)Whatever Wrote: To put Erickson's year in perspective, he was 1st among rookies in KR yards and 4th in PR yardage.  His 810 KR yards nearly doubled that of the 2nd best rookie at 432.  It's not really realistic to think that another rookie will be able to do the same.

For another, how many rookies were the fans saying were going to unseat Brandon Tate, but failed, and he was an average KR and PR?  Erickson, as a rookie, was a very good KR and an average PR, so it will be that much tougher to unseat him. 

The big issue that I have with keeping Core and dropping Erickson is Erickson had 57 touches last year on returns, and that doesn't count fair catches and touchbacks.  Even going with the general consensus that Core is a better WR, there's not much reason to think Core will get much more than 20 touches he had last year with the guys in front of him, so why cut a guy who will get 50+ touches for a guy who will be lucky to get 25?  It's a lot easier to find a guy who can replace Core's production from last year than Erickson's.

One has more potential to become a WR2/3 whereas the other is capped as just a return specialist and WR5/6.
The Bengals offense was a problem, especially when Green and Eifert were out.
The Bengals need as many pass catchers with starter (or at least WR3) potential as possible in case a star like Green or Eifert goes down.
I'd rather sacrifice a few yards per KR/PR to get someone who could be (much) more productive on offense.

And why isn't it realistic to think another rookie couldn't do the same that Erickson did? He was an undrafted FA that had very minimal KR experience coming into the league. I believe that it's easier to succeed in the return game than become a quality WR in the NFL.

(05-31-2017, 12:48 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: Simple, Malone was drafted in the fourth round and considered somewhat of a steal.  Putting him on the PS, means some other team will pick him up for sure.  He was drafted as a long term prospect who won't play much this year, but the coaches seem to think that he's already ahead of where Marvin Jones was in his first rookie camp according to a Hobson article.  Since they will not put him on the PS or cut him, Malone will be one of the top 6.  That means, the cuts come down to whether they value Erickson's return ability (not sure where he will rank in this aspect once Wilson, Mixon and maybe Ross have shown their skills), over Core's potential as a receiving threat (right now it's nothing more than potential).  Based on what he has shown so far in a real game, he looks like number 7 to me.  Maybe the Bengals keep 7 and no one gets cut.  I don't think Core will be developing into a consistent player this year, but I hope to be wrong.  I do however think that Core should be kept as I believe he will become a solid player next year as they phase LaFell out of the offense.   

Guess it comes down to one of those 'nice' dilemmas to have. Erickson's contribution is one that I'm looking at when deciding who to keep if 6 is the number. The vision and savvy he displayed as a rookie are attributes that don't come along all that often, and as you point out he does provide decent backup at slot. I'm not sure if we've seen his limit yet. 7 might be the number if the front office is thinking this is LaFell's last year with us, assuming Core and Malone deliver on their potential.

We are looking pretty strong on paper at the skill positions this year. 

(05-30-2017, 03:35 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think it's more people want to see it for themselves before believing it. Those people doubting point to the hype articles Hobson posted years back on James Wright, Armon Binns, etc.
Also, the comments from Dalton like, "He's fast" are vague. He was "fast" coming out of college. That's supported by his 4.42 40 time and his college tape catching deep balls. His question was his explosion off the line and stiffness in routes, so saying "He's fast" doesn't guarantee he's gained that off-the-line explosion and agility.

Me personally, I hope he's improved and believe he has to at least some extent, but until I have visual proof, I don't consider everything from bengals.com to be pure fact just yet.

Exactly.

(05-30-2017, 04:20 PM)eoxyod Wrote: Yep. Armon Binns is the best comparison to this. It's crazy how much people put into OTAs.

I WANT him to be productive. I'm not putting all of my hopes and dreams into a 6th round pick, and then when he doesn't succeed, I'm not going to be one of those fans that for some reason calls him a bust or disappointment.

Exactly x 2. 

(05-30-2017, 10:31 PM)McC Wrote: Using the logic I've seen in this thread, that if the team thought anything of him, they wouldn't have drafted a virtual clone in the 4th round this year, that means that using a first rounder on a receiver means the team thinks nothing of the second rounder from last year.

Malone is the superior prospect IMO, despite the height/weight/40 similarities. Scouting reports had nicer things to say about his routes, quickness out of breaks and hands. If Core leapfrogs everyone on the depth chart (which is currently stacked) and becomes Randy Moss...great. This is more about me not wanting to fall for yet another dose of off-season hype than me "hating" Core.

Fwiw, I think it's funny that Core is getting more hype than Ross, Boyd, Malone or even players at other positions. It's Binns or Briscoe all over again. Or Dan LeFevour. People always pick out some late round pick that's going to be the next Brady or Jerry Rice. It happens literally every year. I guess it gets some through the offseason. I get that, but I think we have players that are more worthy of hype. 

(05-31-2017, 01:01 PM)wildcats forever Wrote: Guess it comes down to one of those 'nice' dilemmas to have. Erickson's contribution is one that I'm looking at when deciding who to keep if 6 is the number. The vision and savvy he displayed as a rookie are attributes that don't come along all that often, and as you point out he does provide decent backup at slot. I'm not sure if we've seen his limit yet. 7 might be the number if the front office is thinking this is LaFell's last year with us, assuming Core and Malone deliver on their potential.

We are looking pretty strong on paper at the skill positions this year. 

Based on what I've been reading, it seems that the Bengals are leaning towards keeping 7 and going lighter at some other position.  I wouldn't mind this one bit.  I'd rather keep our good players, even if they're not on the active game day roster, than lose them to other teams after we've developed them for nothing.  I'm kind of hoping that Brandon Wilson and Joe Mixon can maintain or do better than Erickson, so that we could trade Erickson to another team and get an offensive lineman for depth (not a likely scenario) or a decent player at some other spot.  Keeping 7 if no trade materializes is IMO, the correct move, as it provides some insurance against injury, and we can have 6 good WRs next year, once LaFell is cut or phased out slowly.  It would be a shame to develop a 6th rounder like Core or an undrafted free agent like Erickson only to see them produce for another team at a low cost.  

(05-31-2017, 01:18 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Exactly.


Exactly x 2. 


Malone is the superior prospect IMO, despite the height/weight/40 similarities. Scouting reports had nicer things to say about his routes, quickness out of breaks and hands. If Core leapfrogs everyone on the depth chart (which is currently stacked) and becomes Randy Moss...great. This is more about me not wanting to fall for yet another dose of off-season hype than me "hating" Core.

Fwiw, I think it's funny that Core is getting more hype than Ross, Boyd, Malone or even players at other positions. It's Binns or Briscoe all over again. Or Dan LeFevour. People always pick out some late round pick that's going to be the next Brady or Jerry Rice. It happens literally every year. I guess it gets some through the offseason. I get that, but I think we have players that are more worthy of hype. 

Ross would probably getting some (more) hype but he isn't allowed to participate at OTAs due to Washington being on quarters. He is finishing up his final quarter in order to graduate.

(05-31-2017, 12:55 PM)ochocincos Wrote: One has more potential to become a WR2/3 whereas the other is capped as just a return specialist and WR5/6.
The Bengals offense was a problem, especially when Green and Eifert were out.
The Bengals need as many pass catchers with starter (or at least WR3) potential as possible in case a star like Green or Eifert goes down.
I'd rather sacrifice a few yards per KR/PR to get someone who could be (much) more productive on offense.

And why isn't it realistic to think another rookie couldn't do the same that Erickson did? He was an undrafted FA that had very minimal KR experience coming into the league. I believe that it's easier to succeed in the return game than become a quality WR in the NFL.

We're not sure where Erickson's potential tops out at.  We do know that he was a lot more productive in college than Core.  We can also reasonably assume the coaches had him focused more on his return duties than the base offense last year.

It is not reasonable to think another rookie can come in and lead the conference in kick return yardage, no.  Erickson was the exception, not the rule.

Depth is great, but Erickson had more touches last year than Boyd.  Your return man is also basically a starter.  You don't hurt your starting lineup for depth guys.

Finally, if Im a coach in a contract year coming off a 6 win season, who do I keep?  Do I keep the guy that will help me win games this year or the guy that might help me in a year or two?

(05-31-2017, 02:56 PM)Whatever Wrote: We're not sure where Erickson's potential tops out at.  We do know that he was a lot more productive in college than Core.  We can also reasonably assume the coaches had him focused more on his return duties than the base offense last year.

It is not reasonable to think another rookie can come in and lead the conference in kick return yardage, no.  Erickson was the exception, not the rule.

Depth is great, but Erickson had more touches last year than Boyd.  Your return man is also basically a starter.  You don't hurt your starting lineup for depth guys.

Finally, if Im a coach in a contract year coming off a 6 win season, who do I keep?  Do I keep the guy that will help me win games this year or the guy that might help me in a year or two?

Fair enough. It was presumptive on my part that Erickson was capped out as a WR already.

And you're right, statistically Erickson was more productive in terms of yardage than Core, but they were in different situations in college. Erickson was the top option at Wisconsin whereas Core was playing second fiddle to Treadwell and was much more of a deep threat. Core's YPC is much greater than Erickson's, and he also had almost double the TDs that Erickson had.

Maybe Erickson was the exception and is that much better at returner than the other options on the roster. But just like Erickson in the preseason last year, I want to see if anyone can at least come close to or be better than the incumbent.


Clearly, I think the Bengals didn't feel very strong about their stable of WRs (including those from last year's PS) since they re-signed LaFell and then went out and drafted one in the 1st and another in the 4th. I can only imagine the purpose of keeping 7 this year is to retain all of Malone, Erickson, and Core, then cut LaFell next year and go back down to six if the WRs show improvement.
I'm just having a hard time seeing what other position can sacrifice going light, and I personally feel Erickson is more expendable than Core, so we clearly differ our opinions on that. With the questions at OL, it's hard to think they'd go light there.  Could they go light at DL given their lack of pass rush behind Dunlap and Atkins? I would be surprised. I can't see how they go light at LB unless they risk Evans to the PS.
Maybe the Bengals decide to give Hewitt the boot in favor of 7 WRs given his continued lack of usage over the past couple of years.

(05-31-2017, 01:18 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Fwiw, I think it's funny that Core is getting more hype than Ross, Boyd, Malone or even players at other positions. It's Binns or Briscoe all over again. Or Dan LeFevour. People always pick out some late round pick that's going to be the next Brady or Jerry Rice. It happens literally every year. I guess it gets some through the offseason. I get that, but I think we have players that are more worthy of hype. 

I think the reason we see so much hype for late round players and undrafted free agents is because of our lack of action in free agency. We tend to just target 1-2 role players while trying to fill the "star" roles with our own drafted players. Along with us filling little none in terms of needs in the offseason. That's why we look to 5th-7th rounders to be some kind of answer. If we went out and signed 3-4 players consistently in free agency, then I think we'd see less hype for late round guys.

I believe part of the Binns hype had to do with him playing the University of Cincinnati. Local guys will always be jewels in the eyes of the fans. Maurice Purify got the same kind of hype as Binns, but fewer people bought into him.

I'd like to see him succeed, but like others, I'm not hyping him up. We've seen this game play out so many times. Green is here, Marvin raves about LaFell, Boyd is our new Sanu, Ross is a top 10 pick, and the coaches view Malone very highly. I think Core winds up playing mainly ST and a few snaps on O, if he makes the roster.

(05-30-2017, 10:31 PM)McC Wrote: Using the logic I've seen in this thread, that if the team thought anything of him, they wouldn't have drafted a virtual clone in the 4th round this year, that means that using a first rounder on a receiver means the team thinks nothing of the second rounder from last year.

Not true at all.
We have a 5 year contract with Ross, AJ Green is 28 (will be 29 when the season starts) now, they are thinking for the future. AJ's contract will expire when he's 31. WR's in the NFL really fall off a cliff after the age of 34. So that's maybe 1 more mid range contract for him?

EDIT: We will go with 2 qb's this year instead of 3 so that we can keep 7 wr's.

Personally, I love the idea of having a slew of scary dudes you can run out there at receiver. Not to mention, it greatly reduces the possibility of being left high and dry at the position again. Let 'em fight it out and may the best men win., regardless of where they were drafted.

(05-30-2017, 10:28 PM)McC Wrote: The only people I see predicting anything are the ones predicting him to fail.

Well said!

(05-31-2017, 03:34 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Fair enough. It was presumptive on my part that Erickson was capped out as a WR already.

And you're right, statistically Erickson was more productive in terms of yardage than Core, but they were in different situations in college. Erickson was the top option at Wisconsin whereas Core was playing second fiddle to Treadwell and was much more of a deep threat. Core's YPC is much greater than Erickson's, and he also had almost double the TDs that Erickson had.

Maybe Erickson was the exception and is that much better at returner than the other options on the roster. But just like Erickson in the preseason last year, I want to see if anyone can at least come close to or be better than the incumbent.


Clearly, I think the Bengals didn't feel very strong about their stable of WRs (including those from last year's PS) since they re-signed LaFell and then went out and drafted one in the 1st and another in the 4th. I can only imagine the purpose of keeping 7 this year is to retain all of Malone, Erickson, and Core, then cut LaFell next year and go back down to six if the WRs show improvement.
I'm just having a hard time seeing what other position can sacrifice going light, and I personally feel Erickson is more expendable than Core, so we clearly differ our opinions on that. With the questions at OL, it's hard to think they'd go light there.  Could they go light at DL given their lack of pass rush behind Dunlap and Atkins? I would be surprised. I can't see how they go light at LB unless they risk Evans to the PS.
Maybe the Bengals decide to give Hewitt the boot in favor of 7 WRs given his continued lack of usage over the past couple of years.

I have no issue if the Bengals cut bait with Erickson if someone beats him out for primary return duties.  However, I don't want to give the return job to a lesser player to keep Core.  I also don't see it as being terribly likely that Erickson loses the job.  

I think they would like to keep 7 WR's, but I'm also not seeing where they save a spot.  The most likely spot I can see is RB, if Gio is ready to roll.  Maybe CB, but the 6th CB is probably going to be better than the 6th WR.  

Myself I would like to hear something NEW about Cody Core.

Last off season we heard the exact same quotes from the exact same people. Dalton saying he's fast Pacman saying hes a competitor and AJ saying he looks like Jones. This is not new information we already know he's big fast and likes to compete...but how has his route running improved? His ability to read coverages? These are the things I want to hear about now. I'm not writing him off I was a big fan of him last year but he did not look ready when given playing time. He still needed to take the step from athlete to football player.

(05-31-2017, 12:01 PM)eoxyod Wrote: That's fair, but that Ravens defense was completely done for at that point. Core had the opposite experience of the 100 target, 3 catch game against the Texans. Neither game defines him at all at this point, but he has a lot more to do. I just don't see where he can fit in the offense this upcoming year. Overall the final spot will be who is better on the coverage unit and Erickson has that edge currently, especially with added return experience.

Don't see where he can fit in?

Why does a rotation of fresh, strong, fast guys only work for the defensive end position?  Lafell and Boyd come to the bench, and Ross moves to slot while Core goes in at X.  DB instantly poops their pants.  Having a rotation of burners is not going to be fun for opposing DBs.  

At 6'3", and 215 lbs, Core is also likely the most physical receiver we have from a run-blocking standpoint.  He also contributed well in special teams, beyond just the return game.  Erickson certainly does not have an edge on him in coverage unit.  Where are you getting that?