(06-13-2017, 01:12 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: Second, if by some crazy miracle Carson is inducted to the HOF... Does he go in as a Bengal or a Cardinal?? 

And, what happens if someone dumps trash on the HOF's lawn?  So many questions.

If he won a ring I guess that'd get him "close" to being in the discussion, but the odds of Carson winning a Super Bowl are similar to the odds of Kevin Durant not being a wuss for joining the Warriors.

(06-12-2017, 07:06 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: If he has a Kurt Warner like season where he goes off and carries the team to the Super Bowl and is named the MVP then I could see this discussion coming up. The guy flat out has talent but was held back by injury, some less than stellar coaching (damn you Brat!!!) and of course never really winning the big one. Another example of what if and should have been, place him on a different team from the word go (Pack, Pats, Broncos, Falcons, etc) and I'd bet he'd be a first ballot HoFer.

After what, three, roster reboots.....and numerous coordinators.....I think there's two, maybe three white elephants in the room when it comes to piss poor coaching.  No doubt this team, and injuries derailed a promising career.

(06-12-2017, 08:09 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: He's good.

But Tony Romo is better than him. So is Philip Rivers.

He's been a "good" quarterback. But he's not HOF material. He's not clutch in the playoffs and overall in general. Took him basically 12 years to win one playoff game. One. That's not HOF material.

Sure, he has passing yards and TDs. But that's all.

He was a good QB for his era. But not great.

To be fair, most of those years were with Mediocre Marv and the dumpster fire in Oakland.  Not exactly the pinnacle of successful franchises during his time there.  The Bengals were decent-ish, but you have the Mike Clown and Marv factor here.  Oakland was completely devoid of talent.  He has had some good years in AZ, and was having another good season cut short by another knee injury.  Also, bear in mind, he had a VERY good year after two knees, elbow damage, and nerve damage in his throwing shoulder.  Dude could REALLY ball back in the early oughts.  If we only had a real GM and better staff.

(06-12-2017, 08:31 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Based on most of his numbers, honestly...yes they were. Prior to his knee being shred in the playoffs by cheapshot team of all time he was honestly really good. After that, he looked off and never got back to a comfortable place. Add in fighting with his coaching staff and just like all of us, wanting changes to be made it took a toll. 

Take Palmer right out of college and place him with a team that doesn't accept being just good enough and mediocrity and hires family friends and I would bet anything his numbers are better than pig's and most other QBs of the era not named Manning or Belichek...I mean Brady.

I think he looked off because of a lack of trust in his knee initially, then the line went to shit, then he had the elbow.  After the elbow injury was when he looked the worst.  My opinion was he was overconfident in his ability to force it into ultra tight windows like he had before.  The arm just wasn't there anymore.  It HAS gotten better, but for a few years, he just didn't have that extra zip.

I would also agree 100% that he would have been better off on a better franchise.....Dalton would be too.  In fact, with Dalton's smarts, he may have been better.

(06-13-2017, 01:43 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: Don't blame Brat.

I firmly believe that Marvin wanted Brat to bring in the reigns on offense between 2007 and 2008. Marvin said during a press conference he wanted to "blow it all up" and start anew... I logically assumed he was just talking about overhauling Chuck Bresnahan's putrid defense, but clearly he wanted complete change on both sides of the ball. 

Marvin is obviously a defensive minded coach, and there's plenty of evidence out there that he likes what I call "outdated football". Case in point: the 2009 game we won at Pittsburgh to clinch the AFC north. It was one of the ugliest offensive performances I've ever seen. Our only TD came from a Bernard Scott kickoff return and Shayne Graham made something like 6 or 7 field goals to win it. The game came down to a failed fourth down attempt by Pittsburgh. It really wasn't pretty, yet after the game, Marvin said something along the lines of it being the most exciting/fun game he's ever coached... Marvin is enamored with 70's style football that simply doesn't work in this day and age. You can't sit on any lead. The goal should be to score on each and every possession but as we've all seen countless times Marvin is content to play the field position game once he gets a lead (any lead). Games rarely end with a final score of 10-6 anymore, but that's lost on good o'l Marv. 

Marv's defensive philosophy doesn't work if the offense scores fast and often. Marvs defensive approach ideally has the offense on the field as long as possible. Long, extended drives that ideally end with a score but it's ok if our punter can pin them deep too. Brat clearly had complete control of the offense and could run his deep-pass offense before Marvin really settled in as head coach. Once Marv got comfortable and decided to give himself more control, things changed. We had the perfect QB for an Air-it-Out offense and he was very successful for a few years when the offense was built around Carson's strengths. Bratskowski was doing a damn good job as OC when he had free reign. But then, sadly... Marvin decided to fix something that wasn't broke.

We went to a run first offense and took more of a control-the-clock approach. You could see it, and the offense really struggled with the new approach. This never suited Carsons strengths. It didn't at USC, it didn't in Cincy and it didn't in Oakland. Palmer is a picture perfect QB for an Air Coryell-type offense. 

Carson personally told Brat he didn't want him fired. Carsons real problem was with the Brown's and Marvin Lewis (who could blame him?). If Carson didn't blame Brat, then neither should we. Remember, Brat was our OC in 2005 when we couldn't be stopped. I doubt he just lost it, and I think a certain someone had him in handcuffs. 

Ya know, I never really though of it that way.....and now that you have laid all of this out there, and with his parting words concerning Brat that I recall as well....you may be onto something there.

(06-13-2017, 01:29 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It illustrates my point that you can't compare stats from the past 15 years of NFL with the period before because of rule changes that made offense more plentiful.

Look at:
Aikmans Career - 165 TD, 141 Int, Passer Rating of 81.6, 32,942 total yards.
Palmers Stats so far - 285 TD, 181 Int, Passer Rating of 88, 44,269 total yards.

Palmer looks like the HOF compared to Aikman...but it's a different era.

For comparison Dalton already has 141 TD and 86 Int with an 89.1 passer rating and 22,214 yards.

The rules were more lax when Palmer came into the league, but nothing like they are now.  He came in during the initial stages of the pass happy era, and was putting up gaudy numbers by the standards of THAT time early in his career.  I think without the ineptitude of this bumbling, nepotism riddled, half-cocked coached franchise he would probably be one of the best there ever was.  Look what Arians has done for him in his mid 30's with numerous injuries under his belt.  Dalton would be a playoff winner in other environs....sucks for them, and us.

(06-13-2017, 05:06 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: And all of the above is why I get sick to my stomach when people try to call Brady the G.O.A.T. 

He plays in the perfect system in the perfect era, for his sissified ass. He wouldn't been known has he arrived a decade earlier.



Yes...yes it does. And you just know the league office will add more confusing and weird rules to help make sure that defense just goes away completely.

10-4 on the Brady.....I think it's too funny that Jets fans called roughing penalties "roughing the Brady"....lol.

Yeah, what Denver accomplished in this era is nothing short of amazing.

(06-13-2017, 08:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Meh, Palmer is no HOFer but he managed to win a number of big games in the past few years.  He has a winning record against the Seahawks including winning all 3 games against them in Seattle (at least one of those games was pretty ugly, though).  I had to double-check, but yea the guy is 3-0 in Seattle as a Cardinal during what was (doesn't seem to be anymore) the timeframe where hardly anyone could win there.  That seems big-ish.  Clearly we aren't talking SBs, but that would be like Dalton winning 3 in a row in Pittsburgh.

Also, it wasn't pretty and I'm sure we can look and see a bunch of "shoulda been INTs" but the Cardinals did manage to beat the ultra-golden QB that is Aaron Rodgers in a playoff game too.  Palmer managed to win more big games and more prime-time games when he got away from Marvin Lewis.  I honestly think Dalton will do the same.

But back to the original topic, Palmer has been a starting QB for over a decade and that should be enough to hang his hat upon.  He's no HOF-er, but his late career resurgence and our own inability to stop choking since he left certainly reinforces my "meh factor" for Marvin and Mike.

I agree with all of the post, but the bolded is abso-damn-lutely right in the wheelhouse.

(06-13-2017, 09:35 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Agreed 100%. A part of me believes Carson would be still here had we parted ways with Lewis after the 2010 season. Now if that would be for better or for worse, I don't know. But if I had to guess, I'd say we'd at the very least have quite a few playoff wins by now. That's not a knock on Dalton, that's more of the team benefitting from a semi-decent coach (I'm assuming it would have been Zimmer). 

I only hope we part way with Lewis before we see the end of the Dalton era. 

For Andy's and our sake!

(06-13-2017, 09:45 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I think he wanted a break from Mike Brown more than anything, so I don't know if he'd stick around either way.  I will say that Jay Gruden is the 2011 MVP for talking our "GM" out of Mallet and into Dalton.  Ye gods, did we dodge a bullet there.

No doubt.....thank you Jay Gruden. Just goes to show the old man hasn't learned shit from the lost decade.

(06-13-2017, 09:59 PM)Pat5775 Wrote:  But as lifelong fans of Mike Brown's Bengals, can any of us truly blame Carson for wanting out?  

I can't now, and I didn't then.....

(06-14-2017, 10:24 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If he won a ring I guess that'd get him "close" to being in the discussion, but the odds of Carson winning a Super Bowl are similar to the odds of Kevin Durant not being a wuss for joining the Warriors.

He DOES have the Bruce Arians factor going for him.....and a FO that wants badly to win one, no matter the cost.

(06-13-2017, 01:29 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It illustrates my point that you can't compare stats from the past 15 years of NFL with the period before because of rule changes that made offense more plentiful.

Look at:
Aikmans Career - 165 TD, 141 Int, Passer Rating of 81.6, 32,942 total yards.
Palmers Stats so far - 285 TD, 181 Int, Passer Rating of 88, 44,269 total yards.

Palmer looks like the HOF compared to Aikman...but it's a different era.

For comparison Dalton already has 141 TD and 86 Int with an 89.1 passer rating and 22,214 yards.

Aikman's in for the same reason Bradshaw and Lynn Swann are in:  Played on a bunch of loaded teams that won multiple Super Bowls.  Stats, when compared to peers of their era, are lacking.

(06-15-2017, 09:20 AM)Wyche Wrote: He DOES have the Bruce Arians factor going for him.....and a FO that wants badly to win one, no matter the cost.

Most definitely. That said, it feels the Cards are moving in the wrong direction. They lost a lot of defensive talent. Also, that playoff disaster by Carson made it hard (for me) to believe he has an epic playoff run in him. Fine career though, just too bad he couldn't get away from Marv sooner. Same for Chad and the rest of the talent we've had over the years.

(06-12-2017, 02:08 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Carson Palmer is currently 14th all-time in passing yards (44,269). Assuming he can get at least 2,000 more yards by the end of his career, he will pass Drew Bledsoe and Vinny Testaverde, neither of which is in the HOF. Everyone else above Palmer besides Testaverde and Bledsoe is either in the HOF or not yet eligible (Peyton, Brees, Brady, Eli, Roethlisberger, Rivers).
Carson Palmer is also 14th on the all-time pass TDs list (285). He's only 15 away from John Elway at #10, but Rodgers is at #11 with 297 TDs and at least a few more very good years longer than Palmer. So I don't see Palmer breaking into the top 10 in that category given Roethlisberger, Eli, Rivers, Brady, and Brees are all still active and already in the top 10.

So I guess if you looked at just his numbers compared to everyone else in the history of the league, sure, a SB win could make him HOF-worthy.
But if you look at the era we're in, these gaudy passing yards and TD statistics are becoming more of the norm rather than the extreme exception.
There's a good chance that Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers, maybe Joe Flacco, and maybe even Matt Stafford actually put up more yards, and all besides Flacco and Stafford pass Palmer on the total passing TDs list. So in our era, it kind of makes Palmer good-but-not-great.

So does it make sense to put in a QB who could be behind (at least) Brady, Brees, Peyton, Eli, Roethlisberger, Rivers, Rodgers, and Ryan in the same era? I'd at least wait until after all of the above mentioned active QBs finish their careers before considering Palmer for HOF (with or without a ring).

He pretty much is a Bledsoe clone.

Not a HOF.

(06-16-2017, 11:52 PM)Lawless_1 Wrote: He pretty much is a Bledsoe clone.

Not a HOF.

Bledsoe was always the guy he reminded me of. 

- Nearly identical in stature
- Both 1st overall picks
- Both were hyped early in their careers
- Both had serious flaws that led to them not progressing or reaching what most viewed as their "potential"
- Ultimately, both had very good and lengthy careers, but neither were/are HOF worthy

Bledsoe made it to a Super Bowl though, and helped the Pats reach another Super Bowl in 2001, although admittedly he didn't play well in the playoffs.

Oddly enough, Palmer should pass Bledsoe on the all-time passing list within his first 3 games this year. Both have just over 44,000.

you could say the same thing about dalton, he wins a ring he will be in the HoF talk i bet