(08-08-2017, 10:07 PM)Au165 Wrote: You don't get it, but that's fine it's what you do. Good luck Brad.

I do get it.

CTE can't be seen in brain scans, but tau can, and tau causes CTE.

Not real sure how you're not picking up on that.

(08-08-2017, 10:12 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Plus it is a degenerative condition that worsens with time. Arthritis is a fairly decent analogy. If you x-rayed most NFL players joints you would see little to no arthritis in young men in their 20s. But, in their 40s or 60s they most likely have a greater degree of degenerative changes compared to their peers who didn't play professional football. Plus an x-ray can't tell you if the degeneration is due to osteoarthritis vs. rheumatoid arthritis because it requires more specialized testing. Furthermore, yearly scans would increase their exposure to radiation and their chances of developing cancer as a result of the increased radiation without any demonstratable improvement in outcome (e.g. reducing the player's chance of developing CTE.)

Or Brad's the first person to think of scanning their brains.

We could put this to the Occam's Razor test. All the doctors and researchers never thought of scanning someone's brain for CTE until Brad. Or, they did think of it and brain scans aren't diagnostic for CTE.

Like how many licks to the center of a Tootsie Roll Tootsie Pop, I guess we'll never know.

How many football players do you know say "man, my head really hurts from that game, maybe I should go get a brain scan"?  It's more like "give me a Tylenol."

Actually, while it's a degenerate disease and the effects can get worse over time, as recently as 2013, brain scans of current NFL players show brain damage, and the build-up of tau, as I've already pointed out, can be shown in brain scans.

(08-08-2017, 08:38 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: This may sound dumb, but I'm wondering with all the technology we have today, why we can't make a better and safer helmet that helps cut down on concussions, etc.

See link in Post #9.  There are things being looked at.  It seems no one read it.

(08-08-2017, 10:04 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: But the tau that causes CTE is visible, so I wasn't really being ignorant.  

Also, if a brain has suffered enough trauma to have CTE, there would be visible damage.



I actually did read the link but, until now, I didn't really pick up on it to notice what was obviously proving my point.

There was a buildup of tau in the brain scans that is visible before death, and the tau leads to CTE, so no, I'm not wrong, but thanks for making me look it up to prove you wrong.

Here's a link showing healthy tau and damaged tau, which may not show exactly CTE, but it's what causes CTE.  

Therefore, you do brain scans, and, if a player is missing tau or it's damaged, you end their career.

The tau protein is only visible when you stain the brain tissue with stains like Congo Red. The only way you're going to get the brain tissue is from the brain of a dead person. If you don't prepare the microscope slide with the chemical stains the tau protein isn't visible.

Brad, this quote is from the Newsweek article you supplied . . .

Quote:Up until this point, scientists have mainly focused their research on amyloid beta proteins, because there is no effective way to image tau.

(08-08-2017, 01:48 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The new practice rules were meant to reduce the number of injuries, including the head injuries which lead to CTE. Easily verified with a quick Google search.

Yes veteran players get hurt often. They need extra rest. Hence the reasoning for less contact.

Seems you should google what a professional football practice entails.

(08-08-2017, 01:52 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: If you say so.

You obviously have no idea how much contact in a typical professional football practice.

(08-08-2017, 11:28 PM)BleedNOrange Wrote: See link in Post #9.  There are things being looked at.  It seems no one read it.

Thanks.  I read it now.  Seems technology could possibly help

(08-08-2017, 11:55 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Yes veteran players get hurt often. They need extra rest. Hence the reasoning for less contact.

Seems you should google what a professional football practice entails.

Yeah, I guess that is why the Chargers' first round rookie is on the PUP list without an expected date for his return and their second round rookie is headed to IR with a season ending injury before they've played their first preseason game.

If I Google what you suggested, what do you think I will learn? That players are practicing IAW the new CBA rules regarding practice? Or in otherwords, the new CBA is working exactly the way the NFLPA intended it to work regarding practice, contact, and head injuries which can potentially lead to CTE? Wow. That's earth shattering news. Thanks for the advice, Tyrone. But, I'm good.

(08-09-2017, 12:12 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Yeah, I guess that is why the Chargers' first round rookie is on the PUP list without an expected date for his return and their second round rookie is headed to IR with a season ending injury before they've played their first preseason game.

Lack of practice especially before camp creates more injuries and allows rookies and young players less time to develop. If they were serious about safety there would be no limits on off season work.

The chargers medical staff has a history of problems with injuries.

(08-09-2017, 01:33 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Lack of practice especially before camp creates more injuries and allows rookies and young players less time to develop. If they were serious about safety there would be no limits on off season work.

The chargers medical staff has a history of

The NFL and NFLPA have had six seasons to collect data on injuries since the new CBA was signed. Please cite the most recent data which indicates lack of practice before camp creates more injuries. Take your time. I'll wait.

(08-09-2017, 01:41 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The NFL and NFLPA have had six seasons to collect data on injuries since the new CBA was signed. Please cite the most recent data which indicates lack of practice before camp creates more injuries. Take your time. I'll wait.

Injuries rose each year after the cba.

Been reported several places. Including here https://www.si.com/nfl/audibles/2013/12/26/bill-belichick-nfl-offseason-workout-limits

(08-08-2017, 11:34 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The tau protein is only visible when you stain the brain tissue with stains like Congo Red. The only way you're going to get the brain tissue is from the brain of a dead person. If you don't prepare the microscope slide with the chemical stains the tau protein isn't visible.

Brad, this quote is from the Newsweek article you supplied . . .

Also from the article, a few lines down:

Quote:To conduct the study, researchers at the Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis used a new imaging agent, known as T806, that has been found to cling to tau proteins. While T806 isn’t currently used in clinical settings, it is approved for medical research.

Ten patients with mild Alzheimer’s who weren’t yet showing signs of cognitive decline, as well as 36 healthy control-group participants, underwent positron emission tomography scans using T806. The researchers also conducted on all study participants PET scans that are effective in detecting the presence of amyloid plaques and are regularly used on patients. 

So there may be no way to image the tau, but there is a way to image the agent that clings to the tau, so it would become known that tau was present.

(08-09-2017, 01:57 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Injuries rose each year after the cba.  

Been reported several places.   Including here https://www.si.com/nfl/audibles/2013/12/26/bill-belichick-nfl-offseason-workout-limits

On a brighter note, that's why I've been saying that it's good that Bell is holding out because he's already made of glass, so this just increases the speed in which he'll be injured!

(08-09-2017, 01:57 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Injuries rose each year after the cba.

Been reported several places. Including here https://www.si.com/nfl/audibles/2013/12/26/bill-belichick-nfl-offseason-workout-limits

Awesome. That's from 2013. Or half the data. Where's the rest of it? You made the claim, prove it.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81990bdf/article/new-nfl-rules-designed-to-limit-head-injuries

The NFL made hits to the head and neck a point of emphasis in 2010. So are the increased injuries because of less practice time or because players aim for the knees instead of the head as a result of the rule changes which preceded the CBA by a year?

Let's check what the peanut gallery has to say. Here's one guy who claims players are targeting knees because of the rule changes . . .

(04-27-2016, 08:45 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Or blantantly start going low on other players injuring knees instead.   Because you know players would rather their knees get torn up instead of their bell rung.

And here's another guy claiming the rules to reduce concussions will increase other injuries . . .

(04-27-2016, 06:37 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The concussion rules will only force more defenders going low.   Even Burfict admits he will have to go low now.   Less concussions but more knees.  Great job lol 

How would more practice have prevented Mike Williams' herniated disc? How would more practice have prevented Forest Lamp's torn ACL? More practice wouldn't have prevented either of those injuries because they are the result of trauma. More practice won't make discs herniated less or ACLs rupture less.

What do the Chargers medical staff have a history of? Not having anything to do with preventing Williams' herniated disc or Lamp's torn ACL? Or not having anything to do with the CBA practice rules? Or nothing to do with your original comment? They have a history of a lot of things. You need to be more specific.

(08-09-2017, 02:06 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Also from the article, a few lines down:


So there may be no way to image the tau, but there is a way to image the agent that clings to the tau, so it would become known that tau was present.

From what you quoted, T806 is only approved for research. Thus it is only experimental at this stage, e.g. unproven. Also, you cited one study. On less than 50 patients. Which means they don't even know if the results of the first small study are even reproducible.

The goal is to develop a scan which can diagnose CTE in living patients instead of post-mortem brain biopsies during autopsies. As you have pointed out with your sources, researchers are working on scans to diagnose CTE in living patients, but they aren't quite there, yet.

(08-09-2017, 02:23 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: From what you quoted, T806 is only approved for research. Thus it is only experimental at this stage, e.g. unproven. Also, you cited one study. On less than 50 patients. Which means they don't even know if the results of the first small study are even reproducible.

The goal is to develop a scan which can diagnose CTE in living patients instead of post-mortem brain biopsies during autopsies. As you have pointed out with your sources, researchers are working on scans to diagnose CTE in living patients, but they aren't quite there, yet.

Hopefully, we can put this discussion to bed ... finally. I think we can all agree that:

(1) medicine is not as simple as math. In math if A=B=C, therefore A=C. Not so simple in medicine.

(2) CTE is a "repetitive" thing. One hit to the head (e.g. in a car crash), will not lead to CTE. An offensive lineman takes a hit to the head at least 20 times per game times 30 games as a high-schooler plus 20 times 40 games as a collegian plus 20 times 160 games as a 10-year pro means 4,600 hits to the head PLUS however many hits to the headsustained during practice.

(3) The human brain was not designed to take blows to the head, unlike the brains of woodpeckers, big horn sheep, etc.

(4) The technology does not yet exist to determine if CTE exists (without resorting to #1 above) in a living brain.

(08-09-2017, 02:11 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Awesome. That's from 2013. Or half the data. Where's the rest of it? You made the claim, prove it.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81990bdf/article/new-nfl-rules-designed-to-limit-head-injuries

The NFL made hits to the head and neck a point of emphasis in 2010. So are the increased injuries because of less practice time or because players aim for the knees instead of the head as a result of the rule changes which preceded the CBA by a year?

Let's check what the peanut gallery has to say. Here's one guy who claims players are targeting knees because of the rule changes . . .


And here's another guy claiming the rules to reduce concussions will increase other injuries . . .



How would more practice have prevented Mike Williams' herniated disc? How would more practice have prevented Forest Lamp's torn ACL? More practice wouldn't have prevented either of those injuries because they are the result of trauma. More practice won't make discs herniated less or ACLs rupture less.

What do the Chargers medical staff have a history of? Not having anything to do with preventing Williams' herniated disc or Lamp's torn ACL? Or not having anything to do with the CBA practice rules? Or nothing to do with your original comment? They have a history of a lot of things. You need to be more specific.

You asked for data. I provided data to support my claim and prove yours incorrect.

Personally I think CTE scare is nonsense and that players know the risks and are paid accordingly. This is why there should be practice limits or concussion protocols. If a player wants to go to the facility everyday they should be able to go to work.

(08-09-2017, 11:30 AM)PV Bengal Wrote: Hopefully, we can put this discussion to bed ... finally. I think we can all agree that:

(1) medicine is not as simple as math. In math if A=B=C, therefore A=C. Not so simple in medicine.

(2) CTE is a "repetitive" thing. One hit to the head (e.g. in a car crash), will not lead to CTE. An offensive lineman takes a hit to the head at least 20 times per game times 30 games as a high-schooler plus 20 times 40 games as a collegian plus 20 times 160 games as a 10-year pro means 4,600 hits to the head PLUS however many hits to the headsustained during practice.

(3) The human brain was not designed to take blows to the head, unlike the brains of woodpeckers, big horn sheep, etc.

(4) The technology does not yet exist to determine if CTE exists (without resorting to #1 above) in a living brain.

#4 is the exact reason we do not need the concussion protocol and it should be left up to the players and teams how they wish to handle each situation.

(08-09-2017, 02:08 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: On a brighter note, that's why I've been saying that it's good that Bell is holding out because he's already made of glass, so this just increases the speed in which he'll be injured!

Good ole glass knees will miss part of the season no doubt. Probably will get busted for smoking pot to "ease his pain"

(08-09-2017, 02:06 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Also from the article, a few lines down:


So there may be no way to image the tau, but there is a way to image the agent that clings to the tau, so it would become known that tau was present.

Which is currently NOT used in clinical settings.

Therefor, based on your hypothetical way of imaging for CTE there is currently NOT a way to image the agent that clings to tau on current patients and NOT a way to image for tau on current patients and NOT a way to image for CTE on current patients.  

There is currently NOT a way to image for CTE other than autopsy. 

(08-09-2017, 12:10 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: You asked for data. I provided data to support my claim and prove yours incorrect.

I asked for the up to date data. Did you give me up to date data? No. At best, you receive an incomplete. But, just raw numbers of injuries can't differentiate between injuries caused by a lack of practice or injuries caused from players targeting the legs to avoid hits to the head. You haven't proven either of us correct or incorrect. There is a difference between causation and correlation.

Quote:Personally I think CTE scare is nonsense

Based upon?

Quote:and that players know the risks

I'm not sure that is necessarily true. You think it is nonsense. Last year on Hard Knocks one of the players believed in mermaids, but not dinosaurs.

Quote:and are paid accordingly.

Agreed.

Quote:This is why there should be practice limits or concussion protocols.

You just argued against practice limits. So which is it?

Quote:If a player wants to go to the facility everyday they should be able to go to work.

Why do sports physicals?