(09-28-2017, 12:10 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Was this before or after DeCastro?

The reason I ask is because if it was before, the Bengals were willing to negotiate and come to a decent deal setting the market value which is something the Bengals never ever do. If the offer was after, they were still willing to negotiate but were not going to pay what DeCastro received.

Zeitler's agent most likely told him to wait to see what DeCastro got and would want at least $250k more at least per year since Zeitler is the better guard.

The Bengals will never pay top $ for a guard and value tackles way more.

I just wish the Bengals were a little, just a little like the Cowboys when approaching the O Line.

After. The market for guards reset in 2016 with Decastro, Long and Osemele all getting 10 or more and Brandon Brooks getting 8. 
The next batch of contracts was always going to be closer to 10 or higher for the high end guards. 

(09-28-2017, 11:25 AM)ochocincos Wrote:
Zeitler was not worth the contract he received from the Browns. However, if the $5.5 million offer from the Bengals is actually true, that was a lowball offer.
Ronald Leary signed with the Broncos for $9 mill a year.
$8-9 million for Zeitler would have been an appropriate, fair contract to offer Zeitler and he might not have bothered looking elsewhere if he had received such an offer before hitting FA.

Fake news and propaganda until verified. Heck, I could say he was offered 10 million a year too with no way to verify it to look MB look good if that was on my agenda.

(09-28-2017, 12:36 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Fake news and propaganda until verified. Heck, I could say he was offered 10 million a year too with no way to verify it to look MB look good if that was on my agenda.

Bengals hardcore lowballed him an offer, 5.5 is lower that what I personally heard but it's not THAT much lower. 

They had no intention of keeping him if he wanted to be paid like a top guard. They got Boling on the cheap and they weren't keeping Zeitler unless it was the same kind of deal. 

I quite frankly don't think Zeitler was that great. I liked him. But I didn't $10+ million like him.

(09-28-2017, 12:36 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Fake news and propaganda until verified. Heck, I could say he was offered 10 million a year too with no way to verify it to look MB look good if that was on my agenda.

There's the link. It has direct quotes in it from Dave Lapham:

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2017/1/3/14157272/dave-lapham-doesnt-see-bengals-re-signing-both-kevin-zeitler-and-andrew-whitworth

Fake news is how people say Zeitler was bad at run blocking. He was our BEST run blocker in 2016 - Top run-blocking grade: RG Kevin Zeitler, 83.1 (No. 9)

(09-28-2017, 01:13 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: There's the link. It has direct quotes in it from Dave Lapham:

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2017/1/3/14157272/dave-lapham-doesnt-see-bengals-re-signing-both-kevin-zeitler-and-andrew-whitworth

Fake news is how people say Zeitler was bad at run blocking. He was our BEST run blocker in 2016 - Top run-blocking grade: RG Kevin Zeitler, 83.1 (No. 9)

People are still going through the trash the ex part of the divorce. 

Remember the "Whit played bad this week" thread floating around here? He's allowed one QB pressure all season. 


Andy Dalton was once one of the highest paid QBs in the NFL. Making more than Rodgers and Brady. 
Because the market reset after the 12s had signed but before Dalton. Then after him it reset again and now Dalton is middle of the pack.
 

(09-28-2017, 02:12 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: People are still going through the trash the ex part of the divorce. 

Remember the "Whit played bad this week" thread floating around here? He's allowed one QB pressure all season. 


Andy Dalton was once one of the highest paid QBs in the NFL. Making more than Rodgers and Brady. 
Because the market reset after the 12s had signed but before Dalton. Then after him it reset again and now Dalton is middle of the pack.
 

Great post. After 26 years without a playoff win...I just don't see how people defend management decisions. In a sense, the fans that do that are enabling.

Changing coaches is like putting a fresh coat of paint on a foundation that has massive cracks in it.

(09-28-2017, 02:14 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Great post. After 26 years without a playoff win...I just don't see how people defend management decisions. In a sense, the fans that do that are enabling.

Changing coaches is like putting a fresh coat of paint on a foundation that has massive cracks in it.

Nothing is going to change with Brown at the helm. 


Maybe a new coach helps a bit. Maybe even enough to eek out that playoff win. 
But with Brown in charge, it is what it is. 

(09-28-2017, 02:16 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Nothing is going to change with Brown at the helm. 


Maybe a new coach helps a bit. Maybe even enough to eek out that playoff win. 
But with Brown in charge, it is what it is. 

A major issue is that rookie contracts are for 4-5 years. Then when those guys hit free agency, we don't want to pay them what they get on the open market...so we have to constantly have good drafts to replenish the roster since we don't rely much on free agency. With the draft, you never know which guys you get will develop so we drafted 2 Tackles to replace guys we knew we were losing...but as the draft goes they don't pan out. Coaches get blamed.

Essentially we train guys for 3-4 years...they play good for 1 or 2 years...then leave in free agency. We of course retain some.

It's a tough cycle that is going to require us to catch lightning in a bottle to win.

They want us to believe that free agency is risky...but the draft is probably riskier.

(09-28-2017, 02:31 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: A major issue is that rookie contracts are for 4-5 years. Then when those guys hit free agency, we don't want to pay them what they get on the open market...so we have to constantly have good drafts to replenish the roster since we don't rely much on free agency. With the draft, you never know which guys you get will develop so we drafted 2 Tackles to replace guys we knew we were losing...but as the draft goes they don't pan out. Coaches get blamed.

Essentially we train guys for 3-4 years...they play good for 1 or 2 years...then leave in free agency. We of course retain some.

It's a tough cycle that is going to require us to catch lightning in a bottle to win.

They want us to believe that free agency is risky...but the draft is probably riskier.

The NFL is so weird how it approaches things. It's such a good ol boys club and everything is practically nepotism. 

That's why it seems like the NFL is so slow to change compared to college where turnover is ridiculous. 
This is what makes FA so risky. There's always risk in a player shutting down once he gets paid, but the worst flops are usually the ones who just don't fit the system but are brought in anyways, because the NFL for whatever reason, still can't get out of it's own way and see this shit. I think they are getting better at it now but there's still work to be done.

We do rely almost 100% on the draft so you would think that we would have the biggest and best scouting department. But alas, we ask our coaches to do scouting and there's no way to fully scout while also coaching. It just isn't possible. 

(09-28-2017, 02:39 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: The NFL is so weird how it approaches things. It's such a good ol boys club and everything is practically nepotism. 

That's why it seems like the NFL is so slow to change compared to college where turnover is ridiculous. 
This is what makes FA so risky. There's always risk in a player shutting down once he gets paid, but the worst flops are usually the ones who just don't fit the system but are brought in anyways, because the NFL for whatever reason, still can't get out of it's own way and see this shit. I think they are getting better at it now but there's still work to be done.

We do rely almost 100% on the draft so you would think that we would have the biggest and best scouting department. But alas, we ask our coaches to do scouting and there's no way to fully scout while also coaching. It just isn't possible. 

And to be clear I advocate signing 2nd and 3rd tier free agents. A guy like Ronald Leary or TJ Lang at $8 million a year. I'm not suggesting we go out and sign Suh or some guy like that.

Leary and Lang would both have been great additions at Guard for us.

Preaching to the choir on drafting. I've posted articles from the 1990's by John Clayton talking about how it is a bad strategy to have your coaches as major scouts...as they can't scout during the season and have to rely on workouts. As an aside, how many offensive lineman have we drafted where we tout their bench press? Westerman, Bodine, any others? Billings on defense. It's because we scout workouts!

(09-28-2017, 02:43 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: And to be clear I advocate signing 2nd and 3rd tier free agents. A guy like Ronald Leary or TJ Lang at $8 million a year. I'm not suggesting we go out and sign Suh or some guy like that.

Leary and Lang would both have been great additions at Guard for us.

Preaching to the choir on drafting. I've posted articles from the 1990's by John Clayton talking about how it is a bad strategy to have your coaches as major scouts...as they can't scout during the season and have to rely on workouts. As an aside, how many offensive lineman have we drafted where we tout their bench press? Westerman, Bodine, any others? Billings on defense. It's because we scout workouts!

Agreed.
Granted, I think you could have kept Zeitler for closer to the 10 mark if we were a smartly ran team who wanted to keep him. Cut Pacman, let one of your 2 other benched first round corners play.

(09-28-2017, 02:56 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Agreed.
Granted, I think you could have kept Zeitler for closer to the 10 mark if we were a smartly ran team who wanted to keep him. Cut Pacman, let one of your 2 other benched first round corners play.

Yep...AND we had $21 million cap space before we signed Andre Smith.

We went into the offseason with some of the most cap space in the NFL.

We still have some $12.4 million in space and the cap should rise by $10 more million next year.

(09-28-2017, 02:59 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yep...AND we had $21 million cap space before we signed Andre Smith.

We went into the offseason with some of the most cap space in the NFL.

We still have some $12.4 million in space and the cap should rise by $10 more million next year.

There was room to keep Zeitler, Whit and Dre tbh. 
Just had to get creative. Cut Jones and Johnson. 
Adjust the bonuses to fit. 

They just elected to not do that. 

(09-28-2017, 03:04 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: There was room to keep Zeitler, Whit and Dre tbh. 
Just had to get creative. Cut Jones and Johnson. 
Adjust the bonuses to fit. 

They just elected to not do that. 

We don't do that.

With less cap space the Steelers extended DeCastro, Tuitt, Brown, and Villaneuva. Tagged Bell, and signed Hayden.

I'm not going to go back and try to find a source, but I remember that the Bengals offered Z the same contract that they gave Boling. Due to the change in salary cap and market dynamics, that contract was way under value.

(09-28-2017, 03:11 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I'm not going to go back and try to find a source, but I remember that the Bengals offered Z the same contract that they gave Boling.  Due to the change in salary cap and market dynamics, that contract was way under value.

Yeah Boling makes $5.3 million a year or so which is in line with what Lapham said.

(09-28-2017, 03:04 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: There was room to keep Zeitler, Whit and Dre tbh. 
Just had to get creative. Cut Jones and Johnson. 
Adjust the bonuses to fit. 

They just elected to not do that. 

exactly

this is what well run teams like the Steelers, pats and broncos do every year.

They also are willing to cut deadwood and do not keep high priced players past their prime because of loyalty.

(09-28-2017, 02:39 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: We do rely almost 100% on the draft so you would think that we would have the biggest and best scouting department. But alas, we ask our coaches to do scouting and there's no way to fully scout while also coaching. It just isn't possible. 

Scouting is one of the reasons I thought letting Jay Gruden get away was a mistake. Alot of good offensive players were drafted in Cincy under his watch.

Not only do the Bengals find ways to deflect it, fans seem to totally ignore or not grasp the fact that the salary cap rises every single season. In 2-3 years, Zeitler's deal won't be as big of a deal as it was this offseason. If they would've came in around $10m before he hit free agency, I think he might have stayed. When you offer half of that a year or two prior and then tell him to come back if he doesn't get what he wants, he should have left.

We should have drafted DeCastro any way. Not saying Zeitler wasn't good, but I wish we would've went with DeCastro.