(11-02-2017, 12:14 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah, even though Andy completed 64% of his passes and accounted for 80% of the offensive yards, he also turned the ball over 3 times, which certainly hurt the cause.

However, you failed to mention that the defense allowed 8 - count 'em, 8 - drives of 7 minutes or longer...and allowed Arian Foster to look like Gale Sayers.

It's fine to criticize Andy for his failings in that game, and others, but you also have to acknowledge that there were many other problems that led to the end result.

Don't forget Rey Maualuga allowing Owen Daniels to do his impersonation of Kelen Winslow......or was that the 2nd Texans loss?

(11-02-2017, 02:56 AM)Utts Wrote: Andy is not the problem. However, regardless of protection, we can do better at QB, and the answer might still be on our roster thanks to the other inept Ohio franchise to the North.

Most players can be "upgraded".  I mean Khalil Mack over Carlos Dunlap would be nice but I'm still happy with Dunlap.

(11-02-2017, 11:38 AM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Andy is mediocre at best.   he cant hang in the pocket,  he scramble for shit, cant throw on the run, and isnt clutch at all. yes the offensive line is complete garbage but we can definitely upgrade at quarterback. i remember the first playoff game against the Texans AJ Green was wide open for a touchdown with a few seconds left. Andy over threw him and i kinda knew back then that Dalton didnt have "It".

That was the second playoff game of the Dalton/AJ era. The first was a 31-10 loss to the Texans. The second was the close 19-14 loss.

For anyone that judges whether or not a player has "it" by playoff games, define "it" and list off the players who have shown this in the playoffs under Marvin Lewis.

(11-02-2017, 12:38 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: That was the second playoff game of the Dalton/AJ era. The first was a 31-10 loss to the Texans. The second was the close 19-14 loss.

For anyone that judges whether or not a player has "it" by playoff games, define "it" and list off the players who have shown this in the playoffs under Marvin Lewis.

Easy, Jeremy Hill.

(11-02-2017, 12:38 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: That was the second playoff game of the Dalton/AJ era. The first was a 31-10 loss to the Texans. The second was the close 19-14 loss.

For anyone that judges whether or not a player has "it" by playoff games, define "it" and list off the players who have shown this in the playoffs under Marvin Lewis.

(11-02-2017, 12:40 PM)Wyche Wrote: Easy, Jeremy Hill.

Cedric Benson.

(11-02-2017, 06:51 AM)Wyche Wrote: Yeah....nothing screams great line like Dennis Roland, Nate Livings, Stacy Andrews, and Eric Ghaicuic.  2009 was so great....we had to continually use unbalanced sets WITH a FB to generate a ground game.  

It's history repeating itself. The first few years, Palmer had a GREAT line. They let it go to shit.  Same with Dalton.  Palmer got more than a bloody nose....he got his elbow wrecked too, in case you forgot.

In 2009 CP9 was sacked 26 times on 466 passing attempts. That works out to once every 17.92 attempts. That would make him the 23 most frequently sacked QB compared to the unbiased stats Shake provided.

Is that bad? I think not; of course I could just be deliberately obtuse.

(11-02-2017, 12:45 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Cedric Benson.

Ced was a beast in the Jets playoff game. Good call.

(11-02-2017, 12:40 PM)Wyche Wrote: Easy, Jeremy Hill.

Well, he did have 77 yards and a TD on 18 touches vs Pittsburgh. 

Quote:PhilHos


Cedric Benson.

I was ready for that one. He was also awful vs the Texans. 

8 touches for 12 yards and a critical 3rd down drop. Guess his "it" disappeared.

I asked for a list BTW. We've played 7 playoff games under Marvin Lewis. Should be easy to rattle off some players who really brought "it".

(11-02-2017, 12:57 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I was ready for that one. He was also awful vs the Texans. 

8 touches for 12 yards and a critical 3rd down drop. Guess his "it" disappeared.

I asked for a list BTW. We've played 7 playoff games under Marvin Lewis. Should be easy to rattle off some players who really brought "it".

Jonathan Joseph.

(11-02-2017, 12:58 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Jonathan Joseph.

His partner Leon Hall had a pick six once. 

The point is that this shouldn't be hard. After 7 playoff games, we should have many memorable performers. We don't.

(11-02-2017, 12:45 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Cedric Benson.

Benson WAS good against the NYJ in '09.  In fact, he was the only guy to show up on offense that game.  I was mainly poking a little fun at Hill's epic choke job on the fumble.....although he himself had a nice game after the shot on Gio.

(11-02-2017, 12:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: In 2009 CP9 was sacked 26 times on 466 passing attempts. That works out to once every 17.92 attempts. That would make him the 23 most frequently sacked QB compared to the unbiased stats Shake provided.

Is that bad? I think not; of course I could just be deliberately obtuse.

The line was still bad, in my opinion by the eye test.  We ran a lot that season, and didn't go down the field as much, if memory serves.  What stands out in my mind was having to use an extra tackle an extraordinary amount of the time.  That's the sign of a weak line.  Gutcheck and Stacy Andrews were on that line.  As noted above, it's a bit easier to scheme around a bad player or two, but not five of them.  In other words, we were able to mask a weak unit......but not a trainwreck of a unit.

(11-02-2017, 12:36 PM)Synric Wrote: Most players can be "upgraded".  I mean Khalil Mack over Carlos Dunlap would be nice but I'm still happy with Dunlap.

Well said. I was one of very few people on the boards that wanted to pursue Peyton Manning in 2012. I liked Dalton but recognized the rare opportunity to land a legendary QB. If we could upgrade Dalton, I wouldn't think twice. I'm not a fanboy, I just recognize that Dalton is at least "good enough" and even those types don't grow on trees. 

(11-02-2017, 01:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Well said. I was one of very few people on the boards that wanted to pursue Peyton Manning in 2012. I liked Dalton but recognized the rare opportunity to land a legendary QB. If we could upgrade Dalton, I wouldn't think twice. I'm not a fanboy, I just recognize that Dalton is at least "good enough" and even those types don't grow on trees. 

Yep, this is me as well.  I was on board with Peyton, and, as I noted, drafting Bridgewater a couple years later. (which I'm glad we didn't after that gruesome injury)

There are some good young guys, and some soon to be retired legends playing right now.  If you don't have one of those, you're not in no mans land with a guy like Dalton.  Quite a few teams are.

(11-02-2017, 01:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Well said. I was one of very few people on the boards that wanted to pursue Peyton Manning in 2012. I liked Dalton but recognized the rare opportunity to land a legendary QB. If we could upgrade Dalton, I wouldn't think twice. I'm not a fanboy, I just recognize that Dalton is at least "good enough" and even those types don't grow on trees. 

Just ask Cleveland. 

(11-02-2017, 01:15 PM)Wyche Wrote: Yep, this is me as well.  I was on board with Peyton, and, as I noted, drafting Bridgewater a couple years later. (which I'm glad we didn't after that gruesome injury)

There are some good young guys, and some soon to be retired legends playing right now.  If you don't have one of those, you're not in no mans land with a guy like Dalton.  Quite a few teams are.

I do think you can win a SB with a mid-tier QB (Eli, Flacco, the shell of Peyton Manning), but you need a 1st class organization willing to spend backing them up.

You also need good coaching.

(11-02-2017, 01:20 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Just ask Cleveland.  

You think they'd like to add "Dalton" to that QB jersey?

(11-02-2017, 01:21 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I do think you can win a SB with a mid-tier QB (Eli, Flacco, the shell of Peyton Manning), but you need a 1st class organization willing to spend backing them up.

You also need good coaching.


You think they'd like to add "Dalton" to that QB jersey?

I guarantee the Browns would give up a first for Dalton if he was just a year or 2 younger. Heck, they still might if there was a chance they could get him and/or the QB prospects this year aren't as compelling as Goff or Wentz or Watson were. Double heck, a lot of teams would probably give a 1st round pick for Dalton.

(11-02-2017, 01:21 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I do think you can win a SB with a mid-tier QB (Eli, Flacco, the shell of Peyton Manning), but you need a 1st class organization willing to spend backing them up.

You also need good coaching.


You think they'd like to add "Dalton" to that QB jersey?

This is well said and astute.  I would like to elaborate that with an overly tolerant organization such as the Cincinnati Bengals, one would need Superman to win.

(11-02-2017, 01:27 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I guarantee the Browns would give up a first for Dalton if he was just a year or 2 younger. Heck, they still might if there was a chance they could get him and/or the QB prospects this year aren't as compelling as Goff or Wentz or Watson were. Double heck, a lot of teams would probably give a 1st round pick for Dalton.

Depends on the team (I guess that's any trade). I could see a team like the Jags offering their 1st.

The Browns probably would if Hue stays. Dalton just hit the big 3-0, but don't forget that Palmer was 31 when the Raiders coughed up a 1st and 2nd.

I'm sure some other team would love to have a QB that's 20 games over .500 as starter.

(11-02-2017, 01:31 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: This is well said and astute.  I would like to elaborate that with an overly tolerant organization such as the Cincinnati Bengals, one would need Superman to win.

Exactly. We would need a QB capable of overcoming Marv and his ultra conservative playoff game plans, and Mike Brown's tendency to let the line fall apart and avoid FA like the plague. This QB also would never have the benefit of the run game carrying the offense. Ever.