(09-20-2017, 01:34 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Ok, so this will be a bit long winded and may make some angry lol:

Through Accomplishments: Johnny Bench
Through Sheer Ability/Talent: Eric Davis

That being said, I feel the Reds all-around best player was Barry Larkin. Bar none.

Honourable mentions go to Votto, George Foster, Jose Rijo, Joe Morgan, Pete Harnisch.

I wouldn't consider Rose even in the top 10 and this is without the scandal; he is certainly super popular and does own records, but that is because HE PLAYED FAR AND AWAY THE MOST OF ANY BASEBALL PLAYER IN WORLD HISTORY.

The closest person to him in longevity, is Ty Cobb and Cobb smashes the absolute crap out of Rose and this is in an era where offense was non-existent. Yes, I know Cobb is one of the 5 greatest baseball players in world history, but had Rose played the SAME amount as Cobb, his numbers would be drastically lower, significantly lower.

People like him, Concepcion, Tony Perez, Tom Browning, were all GREAT players, but they were more popular, due to hometown bias, than they should be; I wouldn't place any of these guys in the top 5, for example.

Votto, by the time he retires, will be there with Larkin and Bench, as the top 3; he's a once in a generation talent.

EDIT: My favourite? Tough.

Dave Parker is one of my favourite players ever
Hal Morris is definitely up there
Eddie Taubensee is one of my favourite catchers ever
Harnisch and Rijo are up there, as is Norm Charlton

But if I had to pick my favourite RED, whom I always associate with the Reds...
Gotta be Hal Morris or Billy Hatcher.

You're dead to me now.








 Seriously, loved the Cobra....and Barry Larkin too.

The thing you're missing with Pete is Gold Gloves, all of the different positions (I mean the man could literally play anywhere but pitcher), all of the All Star appearances (17), MVP, rookie of the year, World Series MVP, 3x World Champion, 3x batting champ, Silver Slugger Award, 44 game hitting streak, Roberto Clemente Award, MLB All Century team......and most importantly, the all out hustle.  The guy ran to first when he walked for Pete sake.  THAT'S what mostly endears him to Cincy fans.  If he was on the field, it was all out, all the time.  Blue collar folks (in those days) like Cincy fans are always gonna love a guy like that.  Pete Rose truly epitomized the "bring your lunch pail to work" kind of player.....and he played well enough to go with that.

2 MVPs
14 All-Stars
2 WS Rings
10 Gold Gloves

Considered by many to be the greatest catcher of all time. It is hard to not give the title of Best Reds Player Ever to Johnny Bench right now.

That said, Joey Votto is the best batter in Reds history. He doesn't have the base stealing of Morgan, defense of Bench, or Versatility/Long Resume of Rose, but if you take everything that makes a good batter and put it together... Hitting for average, hitting for power, having a good eye, being able to work walks, hitting with runners in scoring position... it is Joey Votto. Nobody else has ALL of it together quite like Votto.

Frank Robinson probably #2 right now. Votto will easily finish his career as a top-5 Reds player of all time with a chance at taking #1.

Votto in Reds Franchise All-Time Rankings....
Position Player War: 6th
Batting Average: 5th
On Base %: 1st
Slugging: 2nd
On Base + Slugging: 1st
Total Bases: 10th
Doubles: 6th
Home Runs: 5th
Walks: 2nd
OPS+: 1st
Runs Created: 4th
XBH: 7th
Intentional Walks: 2nd

Some of those are counting stats that he'll just keep going higher up on that list, too. If he plays like he has the last couple years for 2-3 more years, and then starts declining while staying at a decent level for another 3-4 more years after that, Votto will probably go down as the best Reds player ever. Right now he just needs more productive years in the uniform, only really having 10 years in the majors so far. He gets that up to 16-17 years anywhere close to what he's currently at career-wise and it's his title.

People hate on him because Marty hates on him, and because they like RBI. It's not his fault he keeps getting managers that put Drew Stubbs, Billy Hamilton, Jose Peraza, Skip Schumaker, Wilson Valdez, etc, hitting in front of him. Gotta have people on to hit people in.

Joey Votto Career Line: .313/.428/.540/.967
Joey Votto Career Line w/ RISP: .335/.488/.590/1.078

That's as "clutch" as you could ever ask a player to be.

(09-03-2017, 06:28 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: On a list of great Reds, Joey Votto might crack the top 25. That's how awesome the Reds were back in the day.

Lol. Classic BRM bias

Votto is first in so many offensive categories in franchise history.

OBP and OPS being the most important

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/leaders_bat.shtml

(09-26-2017, 12:31 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 2 MVPs
14 All-Stars
2 WS Rings
10 Gold Gloves

Considered by many to be the greatest catcher of all time. It is hard to not give the title of Best Reds Player Ever to Johnny Bench right now.

That said, Joey Votto is the best batter in Reds history. He doesn't have the base stealing of Morgan, defense of Bench, or Versatility/Long Resume of Rose, but if you take everything that makes a good batter and put it together... Hitting for average, hitting for power, having a good eye, being able to work walks, hitting with runners in scoring position... it is Joey Votto. Nobody else has ALL of it together quite like Votto.

Frank Robinson probably #2 right now. Votto will easily finish his career as a top-5 Reds player of all time with a chance at taking #1.

Votto in Reds Franchise All-Time Rankings....
Position Player War: 6th
Batting Average: 5th
On Base %: 1st
Slugging: 2nd
On Base + Slugging: 1st
Total Bases: 10th
Doubles: 6th
Home Runs: 5th
Walks: 2nd
OPS+: 1st
Runs Created: 4th
XBH: 7th
Intentional Walks: 2nd

Some of those are counting stats that he'll just keep going higher up on that list, too. If he plays like he has the last couple years for 2-3 more years, and then starts declining while staying at a decent level for another 3-4 more years after that, Votto will probably go down as the best Reds player ever. Right now he just needs more productive years in the uniform, only really having 10 years in the majors so far. He gets that up to 16-17 years anywhere close to what he's currently at career-wise and it's his title.

People hate on him because Marty hates on him, and because they like RBI. It's not his fault he keeps getting managers that put Drew Stubbs, Billy Hamilton, Jose Peraza, Skip Schumaker, Wilson Valdez, etc, hitting in front of him. Gotta have people on to hit people in.

Joey Votto Career Line: .313/.428/.540/.967
Joey Votto Career Line w/ RISP: .335/.488/.590/1.078

That's as "clutch" as you could ever ask a player to be.

I agree with everything you said.  I consider Bench the greatest Red ever.  A lot of compelling evidence for Votto too.  I put him fifth right now, behind Bench, Rose,  Frank Robinson and Morgan, with Larking right behind Votto.  And Votto's place in fifth is likely only temporary.

The tenacity that Rose played the game has to put him in the top of any All-Time sports mention.

I'm going to add this "unseen" stat to his resume.

If you watched him play most every game... you would know that Pete would swing and make contact with just about any pitch.

In doing so he would wear pitchers out because they would have to throw so many just to him.

I don't really like Rose as a person he comes across as a prick to me (and that was before the scandal).

Barry Larkin would have to be my favorite because he was an excellent player and likeable personality as well.

(10-21-2017, 08:04 AM)BengalsRocker Wrote: The tenacity that Rose played the game has to put him in the top of any All-Time sports mention.

I'm going to add this "unseen" stat to his resume.

If you watched him play most every game... you would know that Pete would swing and make contact with just about any pitch.

In doing so he would wear pitchers out because they would have to throw so many just to him.

I don't really like Rose as a person he comes across as a prick to me (and that was before the scandal).

Barry Larkin would have to be my favorite because he was an excellent player and likeable personality as well.

I worked on Larkin's house when he lived in Amberly Village.  The guy you would think he is is the guy he is.  And he looked smaller than I thought he would.  Not short but lean and slender.  And down to earth and real.  He lived in a pink house that had a full sized basketball court in it.  He bought four lots so nobody could build around him.  He tipped everybody on my crew--six of us, if I remember right, a C note.  I loved watching him play more than maybe anybody ever.  He glided.  He moved like water.  He was also an outstanding football player and a damn good basketball player too.  Poetry in motion.  Sorry to get off topic.

Its pretty unbelievable to me how many of you are underrating Joey Votto. He is a top 5 player in Reds history....easily. He may be the best Reds hitter of all time. He beats Rose in pretty much every offensive statistical category that doesnt have to do with how long a player plays for. OBP, average, OPS. Votto beats him.

People are obsessed with how many hits Pete had in his career. Great accomplishment but it doesnt automatically make you the best hitter of all time.

I know this is going to hurt the feelings of all the old ass dudes here, but Joey Votto is better all around than any given member of the Big Red Machine. Don't let your bias and love for that era of Reds history cloud your judgement.

(11-03-2017, 11:28 AM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: I know this is going to hurt the feelings of all the old ass dudes here, but Joey Votto is better all around than any given member of the Big Red Machine.  Don't let your bias and love for that era of Reds history cloud your judgement.

Bullshit.  Someday, you'll be an old ass dude too.  Maybe by then, you'll grow a tiny bit of respect.

(11-05-2017, 02:27 PM)McC Wrote: Bullshit.  Someday, you'll be an old ass dude too.  Maybe by then, you'll grow a tiny bit of respect.

We have respect, but the truth and stats speak for themselves. Go compare Votto's career stat line up against anyone in Reds history and tell me who has a better line than him. Ill wait. 

(11-10-2017, 11:17 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: We have respect, but the truth and stats speak for themselves. Go compare Votto's career stat line up against anyone in Reds history and tell me who has a better line than him. Ill wait. 

Honestly, to me anyway, Bench as a catcher is a different animal altogether to compare to.  But in terms of his peers.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_C.shtml

(11-10-2017, 12:07 PM)Goalpost Wrote: Honestly, to me anyway, Bench as a catcher is a different animal altogether to compare to.  But in terms of his peers.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_C.shtml

I agree with you. Bench was a special player because of his position. 

You wanna know why he isn't the best and still ranks behind the others?  Look at his post season stats, specifically 2012, when all they needed for three straight games was for somebody to drive in one more run and nobody did.  Nine post season games, 1 RBI.

The Big Red Machine drove in those runs, which is why they have the hardware and the recognition.  One word describes why he is behind them--clutch.

The only one of the big four from the Big Red Machine he can touch defensively is Rose and that's probably because Rose played so many positions.  And you do agree the game is half offense and half defense, right?

Just because it didn't happen yesterday doesn't mean it didn't happen.  There is no rewriting history just because you weren't there.

I rank him right behind Bench, Morgan, Rose and Perez and in a relative tie with Larkin.

(11-11-2017, 02:27 PM)McC Wrote: You wanna know why he isn't the best and still ranks behind the others?  Look at his post season stats, specifically 2012, when all they needed for three straight games was for somebody to drive in one more run and nobody did.  Nine post season games, 1 RBI.

The Big Red Machine drove in those runs, which is why they have the hardware and the recognition.  One word describes why he is behind them--clutch.

The only one of the big four from the Big Red Machine he can touch defensively is Rose and that's probably because Rose played so many positions.  And you do agree the game is half offense and half defense, right?

Just because it didn't happen yesterday doesn't mean it didn't happen.  There is no rewriting history just because you weren't there.

I rank him right behind Bench, Morgan, Rose and Perez and in a relative tie with Larkin.

So we're basing how good a player is all time based on the number of RBIs (a stat that many people this day discredit) he had in one series in the 2012 playoffs? Got it. 

And you go realize that Votto has won gold gloves, right?

(11-14-2017, 12:37 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: So we're basing how good a player is all time based on the number of RBIs (a stat that many people this day discredit) he had in one series in the 2012 playoffs? Got it. 

And you go realize that Votto has won gold gloves, right?

Yes.  It's called coming through in the clutch.  It's actually two series and a play in game.  If he's batting third, isn't driving people in his job?  Greatness includes coming through in the post season.

And I am in no way saying Votto isn't a great player.  I think he's right behind Bench, Morgan, Rose and Perez and right there with Larkin. It's not disrespect. Those guys are 4 HOFers and Rose.

Best Reds player?

To quote Chad Johnson, "Man they all suck.".

(11-14-2017, 07:37 PM)McC Wrote: Yes.  It's called coming through in the clutch.  It's actually two series and a play in game.  If he's batting third, isn't driving people in his job?  Greatness includes coming through in the post season.

And I am in no way saying Votto isn't a great player.  I think he's right behind Bench, Morgan, Rose and Perez and right there with Larkin.  It's not disrespect.  Those guys are 4 HOFers and Rose.

I just dont agree with this way of thinking. 

What if hes batting third and theres no one else on base in front of him? RBI is such an outdated stat, a lot of people discredit it now. It's really not fair to dismiss a players entire body of work because he struck out a couple times in a playoff game. 

Again, I'll easily go BEST REDS PLAYER EVER NOT IN THE HALL OF FAME, NOT INCLUDING PETE ROSE WHO GAMBLED ON BASEBALL AND FINALLY ADMITS IT.

DAVE CONCEPTION is best REDS ever not in Hall of Fame

2nd best is Vada Pinson. You can look up Concepcion and Pinson's batting stats and they are better than some players in Hall of Fame. Seems if you wore a Yankees uniform you got put in Hall, but some of those Yankees don't have as good of numbers as Concepcion or Pinson. You add that Pinson played great center field defense and add that Concepcion was the best shortstop of the 1970's winning many Gold Gloves, playing for Reds in 6 post seasons, 4 World Series and 2 World Championships. Concepcion jumping high in the air to steal a line drive hit. Conception going towards third base to turn hits into outs that Perez, Driessen or Rose or Esasky at third don't get to from third. Conception going towards second and often past second to turn hits into outs. Morgan and Conception on the double play.

Johnny Bench only wore a Reds uniform. Same goes for Conception. Conception wore Reds uniform from 1970 up to when Barry Larkin came along in 1987 and Davey was still with Reds that Spring.

So for all his years as a RED and ONLY A RED...because he never played for the Phillies or Expos.....You look up most years as a Red, hits as a Red, Games as a Red, Wins as a Red....DAVE CONCEPCION and if he never gets in the MLB Hall of Fame then there shouldn't be a MLB Hall of Fame because he is easily one of the best shortstops to ever play the game and he has the Gold Gloves and Championships and stats to be in there. They need to take a flame thrower or a bulldozer to Cooperstown if Conception never gets in. How many Championships would Reds have won in 1970's without Davey. NONE. The Reds pitching was not that great and without the best shortstop in baseball the Reds don't win anything.

Pete Rose by a long shot. He made the game fun to watch.

Been a Reds fan since 1961 and I've seen a lot of the great ones. Anyone who doesn't think Joey Votto isn't in the top 10 is blind or ignorant. Could you imagine if he had played on the Big Red Machine with good hitters around him who were capable of getting on base on a regular basis?

Rose and Robinson were probably 1 and 1a as far as the greatest.

My favorite by far is the Binger Banger.