(11-22-2017, 05:37 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: We are 10th in points allowed, not 4th.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPointsPerGame/position/defense

We are also...

27th in rush yards allowed
27th in forced turnovers (which hurts the offense and TOP)
28th in opponent's 3rd down % (which hurts the offense and TOP)
Dead last in 3rd down conversions allowed

Picking the nit doesn't change the fact that our Offense is much better than out Defense.

Does it really matter how they get the yards if we're top dozen in the league?

Are you really trying to pin the fact fact that other teams not turning the ball over on our D? How does one force their opponent to turn the ball over?

Who cares about 3rd downs conversions when you are top 10 in points allowed? That means we are not giving up big plays.

You know what really hurts time of possession? An offense that is:

dead last in offensive plays from scrimmage

dead last in offensive yards per game
dead last in time of possession per game

It is silly that folks are trying to assert our defense is nearly as bad as our offense.

(11-22-2017, 06:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 1. Picking the nit doesn't change the fact that our Offense is much better than out Defense.

2. Does it really matter how they get the yards if we're top dozen in the league?

3. Are you really trying to pin the fact fact that other teams not turning the ball over on our D? How does one force their opponent to turn the ball over?

4. Who cares about 3rd downs conversions when you are top 10 in points allowed? That means we are not giving up big plays.

5. You know what really hurts time of possession? An offense that is:

dead last in offensive plays from scrimmage

dead last in offensive yards per game
dead last in time of possession per game

It is silly that folks are trying to assert our defense is nearly as bad as our offense.

1. I assume you meant "our defense is better than our offense". I would agree, but our defense has fallen off this year and their inability to force turnovers or get stops on 3rd downs is affecting our TOP (time of possession).

2. Yes. Yes it does. Especially if we're talking about TOP. Teams are killing us on the ground. What happens when you can't stop the run? Clock gets chewed up. It's the same problem our offense has, but in reverse.

3. Lol are you serious? Didn't you just argue that Burfict's forced fumble helped the offense in your game ball thread? They call that "making plays" on defense. A corner can be in the right spot. Or gamble for the pick. Or undercut a route. A guy like Burfict can lay a big hit or strip the ball. That's why they have a category called "forced" turnovers for defense. It's not called "gifted" turnovers.

4. A lot of people care about 3rd downs. Your boy Marvin regularly mentions 3rd downs. All coaches do. Here's why: When you allow a bunch of 3rd downs, it means you're allowing opponents to sustain drives, wear down the defense, win TOP and keep the other offense off the field.

5. I never said the offense was good or even on a similar level to the defense. I'm simply pointing out that our defense has several flaws, several of which are playing into (along with our offense) our TOP struggles. 

This doesn't have to be an either/or thing. It's both...as far as TOP.

(11-22-2017, 06:38 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. I assume you meant "our defense is better than our offense". I would agree, but our defense has fallen off this year and their inability to force turnovers or get stops on 3rd downs is affecting our TOP (time of possession).

2. Yes. Yes it does. Especially if we're talking about TOP. Teams are killing us on the ground. What happens when you can't stop the run? Clock gets chewed up. It's the same problem our offense has, but in reverse.

3. Lol are you serious? Didn't you just argue that Burfict's forced fumble helped the offense in your game ball thread? They call that "making plays" on defense. A corner can be in the right spot. Or gamble for the pick. Or undercut a route. A guy like Burfict can lay a big hit or strip the ball. That's why they have a category called "forced" turnovers for defense. It's not called "gifted" turnovers.

4. A lot of people care about 3rd downs. Your boy Marvin regularly mentions 3rd downs. All coaches do. Here's why: When you allow a bunch of 3rd downs, it means you're allowing opponents to sustain drives, wear down the defense, win TOP and keep the other offense off the field.

5. I never said the offense was good or even on a similar level to the defense. I'm simply pointing out that our defense has several flaws, several of which are playing into (along with our offense) our TOP struggles. 

This doesn't have to be an either/or thing. It's both...as far as TOP.

While I get what your saying about 3rd down and it's true but a huge part of why the defense isn't great in areas like Turnovers is because the offense is incapable of making thr opposing team one dimensional. Most turnovers happen when they force a team to thrown down field to catch up quick.


Not only is the offensive line dragging the offense into the void it's also latched onto the defense and pulling it with them.

(11-22-2017, 06:49 PM)Synric Wrote: While I get what your saying about 3rd down and it's true but a huge part of why the defense isn't great in areas like Turnovers is because the offense is incapable of making thr opposing team one dimensional. Most turnovers happen when they force a team to thrown down field to catch up quick.


Not only is the offensive line dragging the offense into the void it's also latched onto the defense and pulling it with them.

I believe they're hurting each other. I can't buy into the "offense is making the defense tired" narrative because we've given up far more points in the first half than the 2nd. Teams have been running well on us and converting hella 3rd downs in the first half.

I don't agree with your assertion that most turnovers happen when teams have a big lead, either. We had many of the same offensive issues last year, yet we were 8th in turnovers forced. We rarely had a big lead, and most of our forced turnovers came in tightly contested games. 

This is not me letting the offense off the hook. Our run game ranking dead last is seriously hurting us in TOP...but the defense is a mirror of our offense. We're 32nd in rush yards...but 28th in rush yards allowed. On offense we are 30th in 3rd down % and 31st in 3rd down conversions. On defense, we're 28th and 32nd in those categories. Sprinkle in how we're 27th in forced turnovers, and boom. Now you know why we're so abysmal in TOP.

It's not one or the other...it's both.

(11-22-2017, 07:07 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I believe they're hurting each other. I can't buy into the "offense is making the defense tired" narrative because we've given up far more points in the first half than the 2nd. Teams have been running well on us and converting hella 3rd downs in the first half.

I don't agree with your assertion that most turnovers happen when teams have a big lead, either. We had many of the same offensive issues last year, yet we were 8th in turnovers forced. We rarely had a big lead, and most of our forced turnovers came in tightly contested games. 

This is not me letting the offense off the hook. Our run game ranking dead last is seriously hurting us in TOP...but the defense is a mirror of our offense. We're 32nd in rush yards...but 28th in rush yards allowed. On offense we are 30th in 3rd down % and 31st in 3rd down conversions. On defense, we're 28th and 32nd in those categories. Sprinkle in how we're 27th in forced turnovers, and boom. Now you know why we're so abysmal in TOP.

It's not one or the other...it's both.

Most turnovers happen at the end of halfs when teams are on the clock or when a team forces them to be one dimensional. It allows the defensive line to pin their ears back and attack the QB instead of worrying about holding edge. It forces opposing teams to try to make plays that aren't their to catch up. Negative plays (Sacks, Turnovers) are more likely to happen in those situations. 

Alright, I'm going to go ahead and apologize in advance, in case what I'm about to say has already been spoken.

Some want to look at the defense for the Bengals losing games that "points" were scored in. Well, yeah, you can point to the defense for giving up more points than the offense was able to muster. However, you have to look at the time of possession. That stat has been greatly jaded this season. I haven't looked up the "official" stats for the season, but I can remember at least 3 games where the defense was on the field for over 40 minutes. (let that sink in)

So, with a defense playing over 2/3 of the time, does anyone think that they might get tired? Just a little bit? Maybe just enough to give up a last score to lose a game?

Don't kid yourselves, this season's failures are all on the offense, directed mainly at the OL, for whom, only one coach is to blame.. Paul Alexander. Well, I can fault Marvin for keeping Paul around, well maybe not... Marvin gets his directives from the front office, namely Mike Brown.

There you have it. Mike Brown is the reason that the Bengal defense isn't absolutely squashing opponents.

(11-22-2017, 07:17 PM)Synric Wrote: Most turnovers happen at the end of halfs when teams are on the clock or when a team forces them to be one dimensional. It allows the defensive line to pin their ears back and attack the QB instead of worrying about holding edge. It forces opposing teams to try to make plays that aren't their to catch up. Negative plays (Sacks, Turnovers) are more likely to happen in those situations. 

So you think most turnovers happen in the last few minutes of games that are out of hand, in a league where most games are decided by one score? No way am I buying that. Too many games are close and turnovers happen in all of them. We're just not getting turnovers. As I pointed out, we had a bad offense in 2016 (24th in points), yet we were 8th in turnovers forced. That should be enough evidence for you to rethink your opinion a little bit. 

(11-22-2017, 07:32 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Alright, I'm going to go ahead and apologize in advance, in case what I'm about to say has already been spoken.

Some want to look at the defense for the Bengals losing games that "points" were scored in.  Well, yeah, you can point to the defense for giving up more points than the offense was able to muster.  However, you have to look at the time of possession.  That stat has been greatly jaded this season.  I haven't looked up the "official" stats for the season, but I can remember at least 3 games where the defense was on the field for over 40 minutes.  (let that sink in)

So, with a defense playing over 2/3 of the time, does anyone think that they might get tired?  Just a little bit?  Maybe just enough to give up a last score to lose a game?

Don't kid yourselves, this season's failures are all on the offense, directed mainly at the OL, for whom, only one coach is to blame..  Paul Alexander.  Well, I can fault Marvin for keeping Paul around, well maybe not...  Marvin gets his directives from the front office, namely Mike Brown.

There you have it.  Mike Brown is the reason that the Bengal defense isn't absolutely squashing opponents.

Not getting stops on 3rd downs contributes to that. Not being able to stop the run also contributes to that. 

TOP isn't an offensive stat...it's a team stat. Our offense can't stay on the field, our defense can't get off of it. 

Our offense is contributing to the defense getting gassed. Our defense is also making themselves get gassed by not getting off the field on 3rd downs or via turnovers.

(11-22-2017, 08:48 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So you think most turnovers happen in the last few minutes of games that are out of hand, in a league where most games are decided by one score? No way am I buying that. Too many games are close and turnovers happen in all of them. We're just not getting turnovers. As I pointed out, we had a bad offense in 2016 (24th in points), yet we were 8th in turnovers forced. That should be enough evidence for you to rethink your opinion a little bit. 

In 2016 the Bengals forced 20 turnovers. (17 Ints 3 fumbles) That's tied for 19th...

(11-22-2017, 05:23 PM)Wyche Wrote: Absolutely 100% all of this.  The offense is way more culpable in all of this.  No question.  However, as you noted, the defense has had their own 3rd struggles as of late.  Could it be their numbers are inflated from playing bad offenses overall?

They started off against a bad Ravens offense (18th scoring), a Texans offense that was starting Watson for the first time (6th), gave up the game in GB in the only game the offense really played well (20th scoring), then the Browns (32nd), Bills (19th), and Colts (25th).  Jax (8th) GASHED them from the opening kickoff, a dominant rushing performance.  The Titans (15th) ran all over them, as did Denver (24th).  Pittsburgh (14th) just totally beat the cornbread hell out of the entire team.

Yes, the offense is abysmal, but I think the defense has a couple fatal flaws that offenses are beginning to exploit, and maybe their numbers are a touch inflated due to playing against offenses that have had their share of scoring problems themselves

This could all be true as well Wyche. I have been pretty disappointed with the Defense this year even with the lack of a
running game on Offense. Thought they would be much better once they moved on from Peko and Maualuga who were
one trick ponies. I knew it might take Minter a bit to pick up the Defense and Billings awhile to get back from that injury
but thought some of the rest of the guys would of picked up some slack better.

Need to tackle better and cause more turnovers. Like you spoke of earlier, redzone Defense has been pretty good.

Minter getting healthy again and Billings continuing to get his legs back will help. Also need to see less of Adam and i
am not sold on Dre even after the last game where he made two huge plays. I like WJ3, Dennard and even Shaw better
for the future at Corner. Bottom line is this team just plays too passive on both sides of the ball.

(11-21-2017, 12:16 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: The defense is on the field for 80% of the game.

They get worn down every game from our offenses inability to sustain drives.

In my opinion I think the defense has been pretty dang good for some of the situations they are put in.

We realistically could have had a chance to win every game this year if the offense was elevated.

No. The defense gets worn down because their inability to stop opponents on 3rd down.

The defense has given up 69 first downs on third down, the most in the NFL. Teams have a 43.4% chance of getting a 1st down, ranking them 5th lowest in the NFL.

Our offense can't convert 3rd downs and our defense can't stop opponents on 3rd down.

(11-22-2017, 08:57 PM)Synric Wrote: In 2016 the Bengals forced 20 turnovers. (17 Ints 3 fumbles) That's tied for 19th...

I goofed on that one. Looked at the offense's ranking instead of the defense. Ok then, how 2014? Our offense finished a mediocre 15th in scoring. We only had 3 blowouts all year, yet we finished 10th in turnovers forced. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cin/2014.htm

Most of our turnovers came in close games. 

4 turnovers forced in a 37-28 win over Broncos (that wasn't decided til the very end)
2 turnovers forced in a 23-16 win over Ravens
3 turnovers forced in a 17-27 loss to Steelers
2 turnovers forced in a 0-27 loss to Colts
2 turnovers forced in a 27-24 win over Ravens

5 of our 8 multiple turnover games were in close games or losses. 

I get what you're saying about blowout wins and making teams one dimensional, but good defenses just force turnovers regardless. Often times, it's not that we're getting turnovers because we're blowing a team out, we're actually blowing them out because of the turnovers we forced. Think about how impactful those 2 turnovers were against the Broncos. Keep in mind that it was a close game with little offense on our side. The defense just made plays. Too bad we haven't seen enough of that lately.

Serious Question why do we suck so much on third down?

I believe the people bashing the offense the most are opposing defenses.

(11-22-2017, 10:11 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Serious Question why do we suck so much on third down?

It is the question cause we actually do have a pretty damn good pass rush.

I think it is the Secondary playing too far off the ball and not tackling well myself.

Passive, not aggressive and not techincally sound.

All for moving on from Guenther and getting an entirely new staff next season.

Might take a bit, but Guenther has shown what he has i guess.

(11-22-2017, 10:11 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Serious Question why do we suck so much on third down?

On which side?

On offense, the rushing attack is arguably the worst in the NFL and in the second half the offense is horrendous.
On defense, they can't stop the run. Also, we are not a good zone defense and Guenther keeps calling it.

We can't stop anyone on 3rd down. We can't pick up 3rd downs.

(11-22-2017, 10:21 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: On which side?

On offense, the rushing attack is arguably the worst in the NFL and in the second half the offense is horrendous.
On defense, they can't stop the run. Also, we are not a good zone defense and Guenther keeps calling it.

We can't stop anyone on 3rd down. We can't pick up 3rd downs.

On defense it's just so confusing were top 10 in every other stat. Even rush yards per attempt were like 11th at 3.9.

(11-22-2017, 10:11 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Serious Question why do we suck so much on third down?

My question is why does it matter?

If you are in the top dozen in the NFL in yards per game and points per game what motivation would someone have to point how many 3rd down conversation the opponent makes? Last I checked those are worth no points. 

But to answer your question: I think it's the bend, don't break philosophy. We don't want to give up the big play.  

(11-22-2017, 10:21 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: On which side?

On offense, the rushing attack is arguably the worst in the NFL and in the second half the offense is horrendous.
On defense, they can't stop the run. Also, we are not a good zone defense and Guenther keeps calling it.

We can't stop anyone on 3rd down. We can't pick up 3rd downs.

Yeah, coaching Wolf.

(11-22-2017, 10:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: My question is why does it matter?

If you are in the top dozen in the NFL in yards per game and points per game what motivation would someone have to point how many 3rd down conversation the opponent makes? Last I checked those are worth no points. 

But to answer your question: I think it's the bend, don't break philosophy. We don't want to give up the big play.  

Because the Bengals defense has given up the most 3rd downs and bottom 5 in stopping opponents on 3rd down? Teams run all over them.
They're bottom 5 against the run and 3rd down stops. Bottom 10 with opponents running on 3rd down and gaining a 1st down.

Remember how the Ravens literally ran down the field against the Bengals?

You can't sit here and say "Oh well teams aren't scoring much on us, we bend but don't break".

And that's the point. Opponents know this. Why score when you can keep the ball for almost 34 minutes a game? You KNOW they struggle against 3rd downs and will bend. So why try to take big shots when you can tire them out? There's different strategies for every game. No one is going to attack the Bengals defense the same way the Steelers defense. And we saw that back-to-back weeks. What worked on the Bengals surely didn't work on the Steelers

Our offense and defense are both terrible on 3rd down. That means failure in the NFL.

There are 3 teams in the bottom half (16) on defense on 3rd down. On offense, all 3 are are in the top 12.

(11-22-2017, 10:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: My question is why does it matter?

If you are in the top dozen in the NFL in yards per game and points per game what motivation would someone have to point how many 3rd down conversation the opponent makes? Last I checked those are worth no points. 

But to answer your question: I think it's the bend, don't break philosophy. We don't want to give up the big play.  

Because everyone is crying about TOP.

Offense is not doing well.

Defense can't get them off the field quickly.

It matters on D if they are playing more downs than a quick score.

That flips TOP more for the other team almost as much as an offense that's ineffective.

ESPECIALLY early in the game. 

Offense goes 3 and out.  Defense then proceeds to have the opponent dink and dunk and miss tackles too.

You don't see any correlation in them not getting the opposing team off the field so our Offense can attempt another drive?

I just don't believe you honestly in this case.

If the D spends half of the quarter giving up sustaining drives even if it leads to a field goal.

Yes they kept them from scoring.  But didn't that exert a lot more effort and energy on their part?

I blame that more on scheme than talent.  We saw it last year too.

I guess what it really comes down to is accepting the offensive line is a major problem hindering the offense.

It's more about... what is the D's excuse for playing so poorly between the 20s?

Guenther plays a big role in that IMO.