What surprises me is this is a “Defend Marvin Lewis” thread. So what if Tobin and Brown wanted John Ross? He was a great prospect from a talent standpoint. It’s Marvin’s and the other coaches’ responsibilities to effectively coach and use the players that are selected.
And from what we’ve seen, Marvin has intentionally refused to play Ross for “reasons” until Ross was sent to IR. I, for one, am in defense of Tobin over Marvin when it comes to Ross. Just because Ross doesn’t fit Marvin’s philosophy doesn’t make him a bad pick.


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(12-11-2017, 10:31 PM)ochocincos Wrote: What surprises me is this is a “Defend Marvin Lewis” thread. So what if Tobin and Brown wanted John Ross? He was a great prospect from a talent standpoint. It’s Marvin’s and the other coaches’ responsibilities to effectively coach and use the players that are selected.
And from what we’ve seen, Marvin has intentionally refused to play Ross for “reasons” until Ross was sent to IR. I, for one, am in defense of Tobin over Marvin when it comes to Ross. Just because Ross doesn’t fit Marvin’s philosophy doesn’t make him a bad pick.


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I completely agree with this. By all accounts John Ross was mocked to go in the top 15. Perhaps we picked him a few selections early but many respected draft experts saw his upside and thought he has potential to be a great WR.

If there is one guy I trust in the front office it's Duke Tobin. I'm not sure how much influence he has but if you look at our draft classes since he's taken over, we are considered to have one of the best in the NFL.  I just wish Mike Brown would get out of the way.

(12-11-2017, 10:31 PM)ochocincos Wrote: What surprises me is this is a “Defend Marvin Lewis” thread. So what if Tobin and Brown wanted John Ross? He was a great prospect from a talent standpoint. It’s Marvin’s and the other coaches’ responsibilities to effectively coach and use the players that are selected.
And from what we’ve seen, Marvin has intentionally refused to play Ross for “reasons” until Ross was sent to IR. I, for one, am in defense of Tobin over Marvin when it comes to Ross. Just because Ross doesn’t fit Marvin’s philosophy doesn’t make him a bad pick.


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Agreed. I had nothing against the Ross pick and it made a lot of sense IMO. It wasn't my first choice but WR was a position of need and they made their move early. He was projected to go in the top 20 in many of the mocks. It's not like Tobin reached for a 6th rounder at #9.

Marvi stubbornly treated the kid like shit all year when he didn't do anything wrong. 

What did we lack last year what did we need to address? Pass rushing and a fast WR that could get separation. Whitworth got way too much money for his age it would of hurt the club to sign him. Marvin used Ross to run an end around got him crushed and a fumble. Then he did not use him the rest of the year just what any person with a huge ego would do that was forced to take a player they didn't want. With Tobin Mike and Marvin making the calls on draft choices they wont all go your way take what you got to work with and make the best of it. Which Marvin didn't do Ross could of made an impact this year if used correctly.

(12-11-2017, 10:31 PM)ochocincos Wrote: What surprises me is this is a “Defend Marvin Lewis” thread. So what if Tobin and Brown wanted John Ross? He was a great prospect from a talent standpoint. It’s Marvin’s and the other coaches’ responsibilities to effectively coach and use the players that are selected.
And from what we’ve seen, Marvin has intentionally refused to play Ross for “reasons” until Ross was sent to IR. I, for one, am in defense of Tobin over Marvin when it comes to Ross. Just because Ross doesn’t fit Marvin’s philosophy doesn’t make him a bad pick.


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My unbiased opinion at the time was that Ross was a bit of a reach. With all the injuries and then the fast 40 yard time...he was kind of a shock pick that high. If we picked 20 it wouldn't have been a huge deal.

(12-11-2017, 11:05 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Agreed. I had nothing against the Ross pick and it made a lot of sense IMO. It wasn't my first choice but WR was a position of need and they made their move early. He was projected to go in the top 20 in many of the mocks. It's not like Tobin reached for a 6th rounder at #9.

Marvi stubbornly treated the kid like shit all year when he didn't do anything wrong. 

Honestly, we have to get away from drafting guys with major injuries high. There were rumblings that Ross wouldn't be ready.

I doubt that this is a case of Ross looking amazing in practice and Lewis holding him back. There's likely a reason we only saw him on reverses. He just couldn't learn the offense and wasn't playing fast. There are quotes to this regard.

(12-11-2017, 11:09 PM)BengalsBong Wrote: What did we lack last year what did we need to address? Pass rushing and a fast WR that could get separation. Whitworth got way too much money for his age it would of hurt the club to sign him. Marvin used Ross to run an end around got him crushed and a fumble. Then he did not use him the rest of the year just what any person with a huge ego would do that was forced to take a player they didn't want. With Tobin Mike and Marvin making the calls on draft choices they wont all go your way take what you got to work with and make the best of it. Which Marvin didn't do Ross could of made an impact this year if used correctly.

'It would have hurt the club to sign Whitworth' - You my friend have been brainwashed by the Bengals front office. We had some $21 million cap space when Whitworth left. We could have franchise tagged him and still extended Burfict. The tag would have been a 1 year deal.

Let's face it...there was no conspiracy to hold Ross back. They played Malone. Ross just wasn't good in practice and he was always hurt. This wasn't the case of 1 mistake and getting pulled. He just wasn't good.

I gotta leave this place for awhile. You guys have lost your collective minds. Trying to out-gloom each other. The world is not coming to an end. This is the true meaning of Bengalized.

I applaud the idea of Marvin gone. I don't know who or what the answer is but I do know one thing--the answer ain't Marvin.

Let's see what the next guy does. Maybe his level of power is yet to be determined. Maybe he won't giggle and clap or go into prevent mode with a first half lead and maybe his team will actually score in the second half. And maybe, God forbid, maybe he'll beat the Steelers and need less than 15 years to win a playoff game.

Stop thinking like MB. Change doesn't have to be bad. And for shit sake, take a deep breath.

(12-11-2017, 10:31 PM)ochocincos Wrote: What surprises me is this is a “Defend Marvin Lewis” thread. So what if Tobin and Brown wanted John Ross? He was a great prospect from a talent standpoint. It’s Marvin’s and the other coaches’ responsibilities to effectively coach and use the players that are selected.
And from what we’ve seen, Marvin has intentionally refused to play Ross for “reasons” until Ross was sent to IR. I, for one, am in defense of Tobin over Marvin when it comes to Ross. Just because Ross doesn’t fit Marvin’s philosophy doesn’t make him a bad pick.


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Marvin’s philosophy has netted the team a middling record over 16 years with an all time record for Playoff futility. I other words, it’s time for a new philosophy.

(12-11-2017, 11:25 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: My unbiased opinion at the time was that Ross was a bit of a reach. With all the injuries and then the fast 40 yard time...he was kind of a shock pick that high. If we picked 20 it wouldn't have been a huge deal.

You could say the same about Corey Davis and Mike Williams. Bottom line is you pick when you pick. You can’t guarantee a trade down. Bengals took who they wanted at their pick.

Edit - I considered Ogbuehi much more of a reach in 2015 than Ross in 2017.

With the way the Bengals coach (or lack thereof), we’d be bitching about any pick they made because that player would be used very little if at all, just like it’s always been.


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The way I see it is that even Marvin probably wouldn't argue the fact they needed more speed at the WR position. In the 2016 Draft they were looking at guys with Ross' skill set and around the same size. (I also thought they were interested in Shelton Gibson in 2017.) So even if Marvin disagreed with Ross they thought they needed someone like him for the offense.

I will reserve judgement until they start doing redrafts in 2020.

(12-11-2017, 11:42 PM)McC Wrote: I gotta leave this place for awhile.  You guys have lost your collective minds.  Trying to out-gloom each other.  The world is not coming to an end.   This is the true meaning of Bengalized.  

I applaud the idea of Marvin gone.  I don't know who or what the answer is but I do know one thing--the answer ain't Marvin.

Let's see what the next guy does.  Maybe his level of power is yet to be determined.    Maybe he won't giggle and clap or go into prevent mode with a first half lead and maybe his team will actually score in the second half.  And maybe, God forbid, maybe he'll beat the Steelers and need less than 15 years to win a playoff game.

Stop thinking like MB.  Change doesn't have to be bad.  And for shit sake, take a deep breath.

When you haven't won a playoff game in 27+ years while most every franchise in the NFL has won 5+ over that span...you see things as doom and gloom.

(12-11-2017, 11:59 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Marvin’s philosophy has netted the team a middling record over 16 years with an all time record for Playoff futility.  I other words, it’s time for a new philosophy.

Yeah and before Marvin came our GM had a 27% winning percentage.

While Marvin has had mediocre results...I question if any coach could win here.

It's a franchise that barely uses free agency and doesn't have many scouts. Some high schools have practice bubbles and the Bengals don't.

It's a mom and pop shop in the NFL.

(12-11-2017, 10:31 PM)ochocincos Wrote: What surprises me is this is a “Defend Marvin Lewis” thread. So what if Tobin and Brown wanted John Ross? He was a great prospect from a talent standpoint. It’s Marvin’s and the other coaches’ responsibilities to effectively coach and use the players that are selected.
And from what we’ve seen, Marvin has intentionally refused to play Ross for “reasons” until Ross was sent to IR. I, for one, am in defense of Tobin over Marvin when it comes to Ross. Just because Ross doesn’t fit Marvin’s philosophy doesn’t make him a bad pick.


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This.

I remember a league reporter saying once that there are no accidental leaks. Someone wanted Pelfrey to put that info out, and my guess is that it's Marvin or his agent taking a couple swings on the way out.

I side with Tobin on this. By every account, he's been the architect for 2 different cores that made multiple playoff runs. Marv is the one who couldn't get them over the hump.

So what if Marv has to answer to Tobin sometimes? As if every other team (aside from Dallas) doesn't have a GM that the coach has to answer to. Tobin is essentially that, and I'm glad he'll be heavily involved in our off-season plans. Seems he's gained Mike's trust every bit as much as Marv. That's a good thing.

(12-11-2017, 11:30 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: 'It would have hurt the club to sign Whitworth' - You my friend have been brainwashed by the Bengals front office. We had some $21 million cap space when Whitworth left. We could have franchise tagged him and still extended Burfict. The tag would have been a 1 year deal.

Let's face it...there was no conspiracy to hold Ross back. They played Malone. Ross just wasn't good in practice and he was always hurt. This wasn't the case of 1 mistake and getting pulled. He just wasn't good.

 You determined Ross was not any good from the two plays you seen him run this year ok. Whit is over rated I was glad we got rid of him didn't want him back at all.

(12-12-2017, 12:03 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: When you haven't won a playoff game in 27+ years while most every franchise in the NFL has won 5+ over that span...you see things as doom and gloom.

That is exactly the reason why you make changes. 

The season end = no coaches have a contract. 27 years of suck and this time we get to overhaul everything. I don't see doom and gloom, I see hope. 

Yes Marvin helped get us from the dark ages, but still never cleared the last hurdle. It is time for a new voice and time to see what direction things can go from here and I honestly think they will get better.

They learned about where to find a coach with Marvin. I believe they will go outside the organization again. Mike has shown that he will listen to others on draft picks now, that is an improvement from the Akili and Klingler days.

Doom and gloom can begin once the new coaching staff is put in place. If they promote Alexander or Paulie G or bring back Marvin...yup Doom and Gloom all day, but perhaps the trend continues. Marvin took us from a joke to some pretty good years almost to a feared team. Why does everyone assume the next coach can't take us from pretty good, to a winning team? 

(12-12-2017, 12:25 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: That is exactly the reason why you make changes. 

The season end = no coaches have a contract. 27 years of suck and this time we get to overhaul everything. I don't see doom and gloom, I see hope. 

Yes Marvin helped get us from the dark ages, but still never cleared the last hurdle. It is time for a new voice and time to see what direction things can go from here and I honestly think they will get better.

They learned about where to find a coach with Marvin. I believe they will go outside the organization again. Mike has shown that he will listen to others on draft picks now, that is an improvement from the Akili and Klingler days.

Doom and gloom can begin once the new coaching staff is put in place. If they promote Alexander or Paulie G or bring back Marvin...yup Doom and Gloom all day, but perhaps the trend continues. Marvin took us from a joke to some pretty good years almost to a feared team. Why does everyone assume the next coach can't take us from pretty good, to a winning team?

Everyone? I wouldn't say that. Theres only a very select few that believe this team is f***ed no matter what. 

(12-11-2017, 07:30 PM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: how much is marvin hiding behind all of the bullshit lines he gives us.

I'm no Marvin fan, but I won't accuse the guy of weaving a tapestry of lies if he says Mike Brown made a bad personnel move.

(12-12-2017, 12:14 AM)BengalsBong Wrote:  You determined Ross was not any good from the two plays you seen him run this year ok. Whit is over rated I was glad we got rid of him didn't want him back at all.

IF Ross was awesome in practice...they would have been playing him. Bottom line.

The best we can hope for is him to stay healthy and develop next year. Maybe he will?

(12-12-2017, 12:25 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: That is exactly the reason why you make changes. 

The season end = no coaches have a contract. 27 years of suck and this time we get to overhaul everything. I don't see doom and gloom, I see hope. 

Yes Marvin helped get us from the dark ages, but still never cleared the last hurdle. It is time for a new voice and time to see what direction things can go from here and I honestly think they will get better.

They learned about where to find a coach with Marvin. I believe they will go outside the organization again. Mike has shown that he will listen to others on draft picks now, that is an improvement from the Akili and Klingler days.

Doom and gloom can begin once the new coaching staff is put in place. If they promote Alexander or Paulie G or bring back Marvin...yup Doom and Gloom all day, but perhaps the trend continues. Marvin took us from a joke to some pretty good years almost to a feared team. Why does everyone assume the next coach can't take us from pretty good, to a winning team? 

As long as the HC isn't Alexander...people will be happy. Guenther. Any coach really and they'll be happy.

Lets just see if this HC can actually scout and succeed under the Bengals structure.