D. Pelfrey on local TV said Marvin did not want Ross - Mike B. & Tobin may now Plan

[*PhilHos*]

(12-12-2017, 01:47 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Yes, Line was a bigger need, but now people are acting like we didn't need help at receiver at all and Ross was a wasted pick..... all the while seemingly forgetting last year when we had no receivers that could get open and catch....

And we STILL have no receivers (outside of Green, of course) that can get open. 

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2017, 10:52 AM)Wyche Wrote: I agree with this too.....but to me, the Ross pick was a want, and not a need.  He was hurt, he didn't play much, and the line still sucks, and we still can't cover the middle of the field.  Which was the bigger need?

I'm on board with this. You know IF Ross didn't have the extensive injury history...it's a better pick...but he did.

Our main needs after losing Whitworth and Zeitler were on the offensive line. Then, I think you have to look at who can come in and contribute right away. Whether that's a guy like Allen (who I wasn't as high on at the time) or Foster, or Howard...when you don't sign free agents you need guys who can come in and contribute immediately.

Had Ross not had the blazing fast 40 time...I doubt we would have picked him in the Top 10...which kind of qualifies him as a workout warrior type pick to me.

[depthchart]

(12-11-2017, 10:31 PM)ochocincos Wrote: What surprises me is this is a “Defend Marvin Lewis” thread. So what if Tobin and Brown wanted John Ross? He was a great prospect from a talent standpoint. It’s Marvin’s and the other coaches’ responsibilities to effectively coach and use the players that are selected.
And from what we’ve seen, Marvin has intentionally refused to play Ross for “reasons” until Ross was sent to IR. I, for one, am in defense of Tobin over Marvin when it comes to Ross. Just because Ross doesn’t fit Marvin’s philosophy doesn’t make him a bad pick.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My intent here was not for a Defend Marvin Thread though it may appear so.

It is more about the Decision Making Structure of the Organization and what it might signal about what is to come.

I am one that wants MAJOR CHANGES which would include a New Head Coach etc.

To me it seems that Duke Tobin will be solidifying More Power & influence with Mike Brown once Marvin leaves. Maybe even before as Pelfrey implies.

The better New Head Coach candidates may not want to come to a situation where they have even less say than Marvin had in the end.

John Ross merely represented Marvin losing out in the Power Structure of decision making and may still end up producing. I still wonder who Marvin wanted though to compare his thought process to Duke/Brown on the Ross pick. Maybe it's a wash.

The Offensive Line issue is much bigger to me when judging Mike and Tobin. Makes me wonder what GEARS are moving in their Heads about the future they will likely shape without at least Marvin's input.

Duke Tobin seems to have Gained influence and may use that influence to LIMIT just how much Power the next Coach will have in the area of influence. This could mean SMALLER CHANGES versus the MAJOR CHANGES I want.

Could cause the better Coaching Candidates to stay away or be stuck with say an O-line Coach they don't want etc.

Not addressing the O-line properly this past off season has me wondering if a Mike Brown/Duke Tobin led Brain Trust will hire the right Coach, retain or not retain the right Staff etc.

To me the Thread is more about UNCERTAINTY and a lack of trust in the people that will be Reshaping Things this offseason.

Was Marvin the smartest Football guy in the room when those 3 met ?

Will the next Coach be the smartest Football guy in the room but without strong influence ?

Will the Brown/Tobin Brain Trust get this offseason right with Big Decisions to make ?

Will they TWEAK things more so than not ?

I'm Uncertain and fear that more of a Tweak may be coming, since we still have the same main two decision makers who have a mixed bag of good and bad decisions lately.

Now they will make even Bigger decisions soon as Marvin likely exits.

[CJD]

(12-12-2017, 01:42 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Are you John Ross' cousin or did Marvin steal your girlfriend?  No foolin' I worked with Andre Hawkins' brother and a college student who worked for me was friends with Gio in college.

He killed my cat, actually. Or 53 of them, to be more precise.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2017, 02:30 PM)depthchart Wrote: My intent here was not for a Defend Marvin Thread though it may appear so.

It is more about the Decision Making Structure of the Organization and what it might signal about what is to come.

I am one that wants MAJOR CHANGES which would include a New Head Coach etc.

To me it seems that Duke Tobin will be solidifying More Power & influence with Mike Brown once Marvin leaves. Maybe even before as Pelfrey implies.

The better New Head Coach candidates may not want to come to a situation where they have even less say than Marvin had in the end.

John Ross merely represented Marvin losing out in the Power Structure of decision making and may still end up producing. I still wonder who Marvin wanted though to compare his thought process to Duke/Brown on the Ross pick. Maybe it's a wash.

The Offensive Line issue is much bigger to me when judging Mike and Tobin. Makes me wonder what GEARS are moving in their Heads about the future they will likely shape without at least Marvin's input.

Duke Tobin seems to have Gained influence and may use that influence to LIMIT just how much Power the next Coach will have in the area of influence. This could mean SMALLER CHANGES versus the MAJOR CHANGES I want.

Could cause the better Coaching Candidates to stay away or be stuck with say an O-line Coach they don't want etc.

Not addressing the O-line properly this past off season has me wondering if a Mike Brown/Duke Tobin led Brain Trust will hire the right Coach, retain or not retain the right Staff etc.

To me the Thread is more about UNCERTAINTY and a lack of trust in the people that will be Reshaping Things this offseason.

Was Marvin the smartest Football guy in the room when those 3 met ?

Will the next Coach be the smartest Football guy in the room but without strong influence ?

Will the Brown/Tobin Brain Trust get this offseason right with Big Decisions to make ?

Will they TWEAK things more so than not ?

I'm Uncertain and fear that more of a Tweak may be coming, since we still have the same main two decision makers who have a mixed bag of good and bad decisions lately.

Now they will make even Bigger decisions soon as Marvin likely exits.

Great points!

For me the 'tales' of who is in charge will be: 1) Will they hire from within for the HC? ie Guenther
2) Will any of the current coaches be retained? ie Alexander

You know Mike Brown likes familiarity and Guenther and retaining some of the coaches would be the comfortable thing. But, it's likely not the best thing.

Now IF they clean house of coaches...then that's a step in the right direction and I may become more optimistic.

[*Nately120*]

(12-12-2017, 02:48 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: He killed my cat, actually. Or 53 of them, to be more precise.

John Ross tried to kill my cat, but my cat got away because John Ross has two injured shoulders and at least one bad knee.  Er, I mean...Marvin Lewis refused to let John Ross kill my cat.  Yeah....that's the reason.

[CJD]

(12-12-2017, 03:03 PM)Nately120 Wrote: John Ross tried to kill my cat, but my cat got away because John Ross has two injured shoulders and at least one bad knee.  Er, I mean...Marvin Lewis refused to let John Ross kill my cat.  Yeah....that's the reason.

Marvin stopped John from killing your cat just so he could do it himself?

Man, that's just cold.

[*Nately120*]

(12-12-2017, 03:10 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Marvin stopped John from killing your cat just so he could do it himself?

Man, that's just cold.

No Marvin didn't do it either because he was too busy preventing Ross from making AJ Green look like Aarmon Binns.

[depthchart]

(12-12-2017, 02:54 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Great points!

For me the 'tales' of who is in charge will be: 1) Will they hire from within for the HC? ie Guenther
2) Will any of the current coaches be retained? ie Alexander

You know Mike Brown likes familiarity and Guenther and retaining some of the coaches would be the comfortable thing. But, it's likely not the best thing.

Now IF they clean house of coaches...then that's a step in the right direction and I may become more optimistic.

My fear is that they will make more "seamless" changes.

In essence, they are GRADING themselves on past personnel decisions.

Have existing Development Plans in place for position groups etc.

Exit plans in place for player roster turnover of older players.

Defensive system they like and have Drafted for.

May feel the O-line is developing and only needs tweaked since it is their Plan in action which required in game development.

Already have a good working relationship with an inside Coaching candidate.

etc...

"Post Marvin" may look a lot like "with Marvin".

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-12-2017, 01:40 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yep. 


That was a joke Marvin made. #FakeNews


Duke Tobin is the Director of Player Personnel. Think about that title for a minute. Now ask yourself if Marv should feel he has any authority over Bill on matters involving players.

Input, sure. Authority? No.


Well we'll strongly disagree there. Have you seen what we have going on outside of AJ?

The line was the bigger need, I'll give you that. 

I'm still okay with the Ross selection. Not going to judge the kid's career based on 1 season where the HC didn't want him.

We should've addressed the line in free agency, and we had the money and opportunity to do so. We didn't even have any visits for linemen. Pathetic.

We're not really disagreeing though.  After not taking the necessary steps to fix the line in FA, that made it a need in the draft, as was LB....although they did have Minter on board.

I'm not knocking Ross here......but drafting trinkets when you need to shore up the trenches wreaks of 1990s ineptitude.  A lot of our issues still lie in not having suitable time for plays to develop downfield.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2017, 03:15 PM)depthchart Wrote: My fear is that they will make more "seamless" changes.

In essence, they are GRADING themselves on past personnel decisions.

Have existing Development Plans in place for position groups etc.

Exit plans in place for player roster turnover of older players.

Defensive system they like and have Drafted for.

May feel the O-line is developing and only needs tweaked since it is their Plan in action which required in game development.

Already have a good working relationship with an inside Coaching candidate.

etc...

"Post Marvin" may look a lot like "with Marvin".

Yeah...those will be challenges. In particular the players will have to be evaluated for if they have lack of talent, or if they were in the wrong scheme or some other issues.

Some guys need replaced. Some are capable of more. Some could be good in the right system.

Those aren't the easiest things to decide.

[Shake n Blake]

(12-12-2017, 03:17 PM)Wyche Wrote: We're not really disagreeing though.  After not taking the necessary steps to fix the line in FA, that made it a need in the draft, as was LB....although they did have Minter on board.

I'm not knocking Ross here......but drafting trinkets when you need to shore up the trenches wreaks of 1990s ineptitude.  A lot of our issues still lie in not having suitable time for plays to develop downfield.

Gotcha. Yeah by the draft it was clear we weren't addressing line via FA, so I was stunned that we didn't focus on the line in the draft. 

Fwiw, I was only disagreeing with your assertion that Ross wasn't a need. I wholeheartedly agree that line should've been priority #1, #2 and probably #3 and #4.

So we agree on your overall point, and yes...taking a WR, QB or RB when OL is a massive need does reek of Mike Brown.

[Benton]

Our last few drafts have been not great compared to where we were drafting several years ago. If Marvin was responsible for some of those high picks that haven't contributed, he might very well have gotten nixed on who he wanted this year. That would be understandable.

And maybe that's why our drafting got crappy. Maybe Marvin was having more input.

No idea, and a lot of speculation.

[bengalsturntup5532]

It makes more sense to me now. I thought Marvin did have some say in the free agency process . But that sounds to be false. There have been bad decisions in this area. Letting players walk too much and signing the overrated players big contracts. Mike Brown probably wanted Ross, but they said time and time again last year they was missing Marvin Jones speed on the outside even Marvin. So we got a problem in the front office and a problem with coaching . Atleast one of these might be fixed in 3 weeks. I can't stand marvins decisions and looking dumb on the sidelines. Not playing Ross at all was sickening because he prefers vets and a system. Look at rex burkhead ,look at Lawson, look at William Jackson not getting playing time over vets . Unless it comes out that Mike is in control of that too,that's on Marvin. And it's really old and everyone's tired of it.

[Sled21]

(12-12-2017, 01:57 PM)PhilHos Wrote: And we STILL have no receivers (outside of Green, of course) that can get open. 

That's besides the point. Receiver WAS a need....

[BengalChris]

(12-12-2017, 01:18 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I have. Did you know that ants can support up to 5000 times their own weight?

Maybe so, but they can't support my weight as I step on them.

[wolfkaosaun]

I'm glad they drafted Ross. We have no one outside of Green.

Last in offensive yards, 26th in passing yards, 31st in rushing yards, 28th in points.

Dalton ranks 10th in passing touchdowns. Which is cool. But Green and LaFell are the only two wide receivers in the top 5 receiving yards on our team.

Also. I love how Marvin acted like Ross needed to learn the playbook and couldn't use him as a speed receiver on go routes.
Malone ran 17 routes on Sunday. 8 of them were go routes.

[OB1]

Weak defense of the Ross pick in here. Sure we needed help at WR, but picking that guy in that spot considering the other team needs was just stupid no matter how you slice it. You need an impact player at that spot in the draft, not the leagues fastest decoy. Add in the injury concerns and smallish frame and it only looks worse.

[CJD]

(12-12-2017, 07:05 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: I'm glad they drafted Ross. We have no one outside of Green.

Last in offensive yards, 26th in passing yards, 31st in rushing yards, 28th in points.

Dalton ranks 10th in passing touchdowns. Which is cool. But Green and LaFell are the only two wide receivers in the top 5 receiving yards on our team.

Also. I love how Marvin acted like Ross needed to learn the playbook and couldn't use him as a speed receiver on go routes.
Malone ran 17 routes on Sunday. 8 of them were go routes.

It's called hate-benching for a reason .

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2017, 10:58 PM)OB1 Wrote: Weak defense of the Ross pick in here. Sure we needed help at WR, but picking that guy in that spot considering the other team needs was just stupid no matter how you slice it. You need an impact player at that spot in the draft, not the leagues fastest decoy. Add in the injury concerns and smallish frame and it only looks worse.

The fact that Marvin plays Malone and not Ross shoots down the speculation that Marvin doesn't play rookies.

I think atleast some of this is on Ross. He's had injuries to all 4 limbs over the past 3 years. That's a lot.