(12-12-2017, 12:25 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: That is exactly the reason why you make changes. 

The season end = no coaches have a contract. 27 years of suck and this time we get to overhaul everything. I don't see doom and gloom, I see hope. 

Yes Marvin helped get us from the dark ages, but still never cleared the last hurdle. It is time for a new voice and time to see what direction things can go from here and I honestly think they will get better.

They learned about where to find a coach with Marvin. I believe they will go outside the organization again. Mike has shown that he will listen to others on draft picks now, that is an improvement from the Akili and Klingler days.

Doom and gloom can begin once the new coaching staff is put in place. If they promote Alexander or Paulie G or bring back Marvin...yup Doom and Gloom all day, but perhaps the trend continues. Marvin took us from a joke to some pretty good years almost to a feared team. Why does everyone assume the next coach can't take us from pretty good, to a winning team? 

This is where I'm at. Literally everything hinges on who they hire though. It'd better be a quality candidate, and he better be able to pick his entire staff. No more Paulie Alexander.

(12-12-2017, 12:45 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: This is where I'm at. Literally everything hinges on who they hire though. It'd better be a quality candidate, and he better be able to pick his entire staff. No more Paulie Alexander.

But that's just the First Step. He better be connected with college football and able to scout.

Also, WE NEED TO START SIGNING TIER 2 and 3 FREE AGENTS.

We can't build a winner via the draft alone. It puts too much pressure on the franchise to keep having great drafts which are few and far between.

(12-12-2017, 12:14 AM)BengalsBong Wrote:  You determined Ross was not any good from the two plays you seen him run this year ok. Whit is over rated I was glad we got rid of him didn't want him back at all.

To each his own, but I don't see how you can reasonably dismiss a good o-lineman (something we could use about 4 of, this year) while giving a pass to a top 10 pick who contributed nothing but a fumble all year.  Oh wait, it's all Marvin's fault.  Well, he won't be here next year so hooray.

(12-12-2017, 12:14 AM)BengalsBong Wrote:  You determined Ross was not any good from the two plays you seen him run this year ok. Whit is over rated I was glad we got rid of him didn't want him back at all.

Whit over-rated ?   Really ?

All-Pro Left Tackle and you didn't want him back ?

This that you son of Paul ?

Marvin owes M. Brown his job security.

I can't defend Mike Brown, but he's not the one coaching the team on game day when we can't score in the 2nd half. If the team is talented enough to gain a lead in the 1st half, do you really think it's some kind of magic? Does the magic expire at half time when the other team makes adjustments (and we don't)? "Ok, Cinderella, it's midnight at halftime." Marv has taken us from the dark ages of the '90s to a respectable team, but he is one of the absolute worst game-day coaches in the NFL.

How many times have we heard from the experts the past few years about how talented Cincinnati's roster is? Whether it's dumb luck, or skill assembling the team, our coach hasn't been able to capitalize on it. We've lost so many games after dominating in the first half. Do the other team's players all of a sudden get better? No, it's their coaches that are constantly making changes to put their players in a better position to make plays. Regardless of how much blame we place on Mike Brown and Tobin, they aren't the ones that can actually coach the team on gameday...

Don't get me wrong, MB and Tobin deserve the lion's share of blame for not fixing the O-line in the offseason, but that's a different story...

(12-11-2017, 09:36 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Ah so The marvin haters get to run back over to blame Mike for all bad decisions.

I'm not so sure about that.  Most of us, well many of us, err some of us, at least a few of us, Ok, me.  I have held the position that Marvin has been doing the best that he's capable of, and that the fault for things wrong with the organization is squarely Mike's fault.

That is not to say that I don't feel like Marvin's time here has come to pass. As I also firmly believe that he's taken the team as far as he was capable of.

I like Duke Tobin (less over the last few years as he seems to draft more busts than I'd like). But if a coach doesn't want to coach a player, he should get, if not the final word, the vast majority of the influence over the decision.

A coach knows better than whatever Duke is what his scheme requires and if Lewis didn't think Ross fit his scheme, we should never have drafted him.

And, obviously, Lewis just hate-benched him for the entire season because of it.

Lewis is 90% out the door already so it won't be a huge issue, but I hope the next coach, I dunno, gets a say in who he wants to coach and who he doesn't think fits his team's needs and requirements?

(12-11-2017, 07:13 PM)depthchart Wrote: I saw Doug Pelfrey on a Local Cincinnati Sports Talk show Sunday Night.

He said he had inside info that Marvin did not want to take John Ross in the Draft. That Mike Brown and Duke Tobin were part of a 3 person decision making group with Marvin and they wanted Ross. Also heard a while back that Marvin was upset that we lost Whitworth and expected to be able to keep him.

Pelfrey implied that Marvin may want out as Coach due to having less influence on Drafting decisions with Tobin in the mix.

Marvin's departure may lead to a Mike Brown & Duke Tobin created Offseason Plan for the entire Coaching Staff plus Draft decisions.

Any New Coach may have to accept being the 3rd Wheel with possibly less input Power than Marvin had in the end.

Listening to Pelfrey had me worried that we may be Longing for the 5 straight Playoff appearances within a few years.

That a Mike Brown and Duke Tobin Brain Trust is solidifying and that their recent ideas involved the Drafting of Ross over whoever Marvin wanted plus allowing Whitworth to leave.

These same 2 decision makers may be about to embark on The Offseason Plan going forward, hiring all new Coaches or promoting from within and then developing the Draft Plan. The level of input from a New Coach unclear.

Got me worried...

There are VERY few teams where the head coach has the final say on player personnel.  The Bengals are not unique in this manner.  And to act like a baby when you didn't get the guy you wanted and not give him opportunities is just stupid.  Failing to prepare to lose whit was a failure in and of itself.  You should always be developing your players, especially early picks like Ogbuehi and Fisher.  Marvin is gone.  Thanks for the first half of your time here, the rest you shouldn't have been allowed to stay.  Without outstanding coaches around you, the real Marv is clearly visible and not a good coach at all.  

(12-12-2017, 09:15 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: And, obviously, Lewis just hate-benched him for the entire season because of it.

I assume you are bring facetious. 
Ross was likely unimpressive in practice and certainly injured. 

(12-12-2017, 09:38 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I assume you are bring facetious. 
Ross was likely unimpressive in practice and certainly injured. 

He was not injured for like 4 straight weeks and saw no play. He was benched after one single route that Marvin heavily criticized him for "giving up" on.

This was after he was given 1 snap early in the season, fumbled it on a great play by the Houston player and then didn't see another snap the rest of the game.

The way Lewis spoke about Ross in press conferences made it apparent to me that he was unhappy with the selection and benched him out of spite.

I'm glad you have so much confidence in Lewis' ability to coach players. I don't. I saw several plays called where I thought "Unless Ross is a scam artist and somehow faked his entire final year at Washington and the pre-draft workouts, that play would have been better if Ross had the ball in his hands there." Simple stuff like end arounds that were given to Alex Erickson. Fine player. Not John Ross level talent.

So yea. Maybe Ross was unimpressive in practice, despite lighting college football and the combine on fire and being a top 10 pick. Maybe he was injured more than was let on (despite not being on the injury list and still not active on game days). Maybe Lewis was just speaking frankly in his press conferences for once (as he never does). Maybe the one comment he made was an isolated moment of frustration where he forgot that he's talking about a rookie and didn't give him the benefit of the doubt that he gives so many rookies and other young players (and older players too, actually).

Or maybe he just didn't like the pick (as this thread indicates) and spitefully benched him.

One has WAY more assumptions required to reach the conclusion that it does.

Occam's Razor man.

Lewis hate-benched him.

(12-12-2017, 09:05 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm not so sure about that.  Most of us, well many of us, err some of us, at least a few of us, Ok, me.  I have held the position that Marvin has been doing the best that he's capable of, and that the fault for things wrong with the organization is squarely Mike's fault.

That is not to say that I don't feel like Marvin's time here has come to pass.  As I also firmly believe that he's taken the team as far as he was capable of.

+1 more :-)

I've stated before I don't think Marv is this bad, that he'e merely hamstrung by the lack of championship aspirations (which is the only clear NON goal they have). Who really knows what could of been had he got the few few requests I am sure he asked for (but didn't get). This is what also deeply worries me about the next coach. They smell that stench a thousand miles away. 

(12-12-2017, 09:38 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I assume you are bring facetious. 
Ross was likely unimpressive in practice and certainly injured. 

Or they didn't really want him. They've even spilled the beans that they were discussing putting him at CB  

So basically Marvin is getting pushed out of the decision making powers he fought for a few years back, and as a result he's mailing it in as a coach. In the end we all suffer because of the petty bullshit Mike Brown likes to surround himself with. Whether he's fighting with his staff or fighting with the County it seems that Mike Brown is just the type of dude you don't want to be associated with.

(12-11-2017, 07:13 PM)depthchart Wrote: I saw Doug Pelfrey on a Local Cincinnati Sports Talk show Sunday Night.

He said he had inside info that Marvin did not want to take John Ross in the Draft. That Mike Brown and Duke Tobin were part of a 3 person decision making group with Marvin and they wanted Ross. Also heard a while back that Marvin was upset that we lost Whitworth and expected to be able to keep him.

Pelfrey implied that Marvin may want out as Coach due to having less influence on Drafting decisions with Tobin in the mix.

Marvin's departure may lead to a Mike Brown & Duke Tobin created Offseason Plan for the entire Coaching Staff plus Draft decisions.

Any New Coach may have to accept being the 3rd Wheel with possibly less input Power than Marvin had in the end.

Listening to Pelfrey had me worried that we may be Longing for the 5 straight Playoff appearances within a few years.

That a Mike Brown and Duke Tobin Brain Trust is solidifying and that their recent ideas involved the Drafting of Ross over whoever Marvin wanted plus allowing Whitworth to leave.

These same 2 decision makers may be about to embark on The Offseason Plan going forward, hiring all new Coaches or promoting from within and then developing the Draft Plan. The level of input from a New Coach unclear.

Got me worried...

I told y'all.....people doubted it.  LOL.....this was CLASSIC Son of Paul from the days of the abyss.

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-State-of-Franchise?pid=481492#pid481492

Quote:The John Ross pick had Son of Paul written all over it. Reminded me of the 90s....shitty line, let's draft a RB.

(12-11-2017, 10:50 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I completely agree with this. By all accounts John Ross was mocked to go in the top 15. Perhaps we picked him a few selections early but many respected draft experts saw his upside and thought he has potential to be a great WR.

If there is one guy I trust in the front office it's Duke Tobin. I'm not sure how much influence he has but if you look at our draft classes since he's taken over, we are considered to have one of the best in the NFL.  I just wish Mike Brown would get out of the way.

Sure, he was great......but when your line is a shambles, you don't go after shiny trinkets if you didn't address the issue in FA.  His last few draft classes weren't that grand, either.  Ogbuehi, Fisher, Bodine, Moch, Still, Thompson, etc, etc, ring any bells?  He hit the draft with Atkins and Co., Dalton and Green, Zeitler, and last year's looks a little promising so far.  Otherwise, been a lot of whiffs lately.


Taking a burner when you don't have time to let plays downfield develop because your line is doo doo, or not taking a LB because you haven't covered a TE since the Reagan era is EXACTLY what causes things like the lost decade.  Stupid move.

Sounds like everyone knows it's a gamble to let MB pick the next HC. Also sounds like everyone knows there's not much difference between 2-14 and 5-11.

It's time for Marvin to go. We've lived in fear of the Devil we don't know for 10 years now. Mentally traumatized by the pre Marvin era. It's time to let go and face a new reality, and whatever it brings.

(12-12-2017, 12:13 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: This.

I remember a league reporter saying once that there are no accidental leaks. Someone wanted Pelfrey to put that info out, and my guess is that it's Marvin or his agent taking a couple swings on the way out.

I side with Tobin on this. By every account, he's been the architect for 2 different cores that made multiple playoff runs. Marv is the one who couldn't get them over the hump.

So what if Marv has to answer to Tobin sometimes? As if every other team (aside from Dallas) doesn't have a GM that the coach has to answer to. Tobin is essentially that, and I'm glad he'll be heavily involved in our off-season plans. Seems he's gained Mike's trust every bit as much as Marv. That's a good thing.

This is pure speculation of course, but you might have hit on the core problem. Given that Duke Tobin is not officially a GM, Marvin does not report directly to him, so technically Tobin is his peer and not his boss. Marvin might have an issue having to essentially report to a peer and feels he has lost whatever power he had in the front office.

(12-12-2017, 12:13 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: This.

I remember a league reporter saying once that there are no accidental leaks. Someone wanted Pelfrey to put that info out, and my guess is that it's Marvin or his agent taking a couple swings on the way out.

I side with Tobin on this. By every account, he's been the architect for 2 different cores that made multiple playoff runs. Marv is the one who couldn't get them over the hump.

So what if Marv has to answer to Tobin sometimes? As if every other team (aside from Dallas) doesn't have a GM that the coach has to answer to. Tobin is essentially that, and I'm glad he'll be heavily involved in our off-season plans. Seems he's gained Mike's trust every bit as much as Marv. That's a good thing.

I agree with this too.....but to me, the Ross pick was a want, and not a need.  He was hurt, he didn't play much, and the line still sucks, and we still can't cover the middle of the field.  Which was the bigger need?

(12-12-2017, 12:14 AM)BengalsBong Wrote:  You determined Ross was not any good from the two plays you seen him run this year ok. Whit is over rated I was glad we got rid of him didn't want him back at all.

Pass that BengalsBong brother!   Tell that shit to the LA Rams.