This story will do nothing to change the perception of the bengals to potential head coach candidates. One of the myriad reasons top coaching candidates won’t come here. Why would a gruden or similar tenured coach settle for this?


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(12-12-2017, 10:06 AM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: So basically Marvin is getting pushed out of the decision making powers he fought for a few years back, and as a result he's mailing it in as a coach.

Just another reason he needs to go BEFORE the end of the season.

(12-12-2017, 09:05 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm not so sure about that.  Most of us, well many of us, err some of us, at least a few of us, Ok, me.  I have held the position that Marvin has been doing the best that he's capable of, and that the fault for things wrong with the organization is squarely Mike's fault.

That is not to say that I don't feel like Marvin's time here has come to pass. As I also firmly believe that he's taken the team as far as he was capable of.

While it’s true the buck stops with Mike. I just find it hilarious how so many often want to not give him the credit when it’s earned but are always quick to throw the blame his way.

This isn’t 90’s Mike...... marvin and Tobin have a ton of say and the fact he has let go of the reins since the 90’s is a credit to him.

We will be fine, and they will hire a good coach.

Some interesting statistics during the Marvin Lewis era. Out of 133 players drafted since Lewis became coach only 16 became starters in their rookie season. They include:Eric Stienbach-G, Jerimi Johnson-FB, Landon Johnson-LB, Madieu Williams-S, Odell Thurman-LB, Andrew Whitworth-T-G, Rashad Jeanty-LB, Johnathan Joeseph-CB, Leon Hall-CB, Rey Mauluga-LB, Andy Dalton-QB, A.J. Green-WR, Kevin Zietler-G, Tyler Eifert-TE, Jeremy Hill-RB, Russell Bodine-C. There were 2 undrafted rookies that became starters in their rookie season. Vontaze Burfict-LB, Ryan Hewitt-HB. Some arguments could be said for certain players like Germaine Greshem who came in on 2 TE sets with starter Reggie Kelley or David Pollack who broke his neck, Chris Perry who was injured or Carson Palmer who sat and learned his first year. Bottom line is this: Only 4 first round picks out of 15 became starters in their rookie season. Looking back at the drafts of the Bengals it seems they always seem to pick BPA in the first round. Draft for need after. Has that been a bad draft strategy over the years? Should the Bengals have drafted more starters as rookies than they have? Did Marvin Lewis just not trust rookies to play in their first season? Argument could be made for all.

(12-12-2017, 09:47 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: He was not injured for like 4 straight weeks and saw no play. He was benched after one single route that Marvin heavily criticized him for "giving up" on.

This was after he was given 1 snap early in the season, fumbled it on a great play by the Houston player and then didn't see another snap the rest of the game.

The way Lewis spoke about Ross in press conferences made it apparent to me that he was unhappy with the selection and benched him out of spite.

I'm glad you have so much confidence in Lewis' ability to coach players. I don't. I saw several plays called where I thought "Unless Ross is a scam artist and somehow faked his entire final year at Washington and the pre-draft workouts, that play would have been better if Ross had the ball in his hands there." Simple stuff like end arounds that were given to Alex Erickson. Fine player. Not John Ross level talent.

So yea. Maybe Ross was unimpressive in practice, despite lighting college football and the combine on fire and being a top 10 pick. Maybe he was injured more than was let on (despite not being on the injury list and still not active on game days). Maybe Lewis was just speaking frankly in his press conferences for once (as he never does). Maybe the one comment he made was an isolated moment of frustration where he forgot that he's talking about a rookie and didn't give him the benefit of the doubt that he gives so many rookies and other young players (and older players too, actually).

Or maybe he just didn't like the pick (as this thread indicates) and spitefully benched him.

One has WAY more assumptions required to reach the conclusion that it does.

Occam's Razor man.

Lewis hate-benched him.

I take it you've never looked at Mike Brown's resume as a GM.

(12-12-2017, 12:45 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: While it’s true the buck stops with Mike. I just find it hilarious how so many often want to not give him the credit when it’s earned but are always quick to throw the blame his way.

This isn’t 90’s Mike...... marvin and Tobin have a ton of say and the fact he has let go of the reins since the 90’s is a credit to him.

We will be fine, and they will hire a good coach.

No one outside of the organization knows how much control Mike Brown has or hasn't given up. How can you claim he has let go of the reins and yet claim the buck still stops with him? Makes no sense. Do you want to know why the buck still stops with Mike? Because he still holds the reins!

The fact they let their two best offensive line go during free agency while drafting two offensive skill players with injury or character concerns in the first two rounds coupled with their Kmart Blue Light Special approach to free agency reeks of Mike Brown's stench as a GM.

(12-12-2017, 12:51 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I take it you've never looked at Mike Brown's resume as a GM.

I have. Did you know that ants can support up to 5000 times their own weight?

If in fact, Mike Brown is a part of some sort of decision making committee, then it makes sense to to me that the others on said committee would, in the interest of remaining employed, be very receptive to Mr. Brown’s ideas.

If Mike Brown is part of the process, Mike Brown pretty much is the process. I can buy that maybe Mike attempted to hand over the reins a little, but I don’t think that it stuck. While Marvin is not a good game day coach, he does know football, and is smart enough not to draft an injured, one dimensional, WR with a top 10 pick, on a team with O-line issues, and other more pressing needs.

I have no faith in Mike Brown to choose our next head football coach. He will choose whoever he decides will tow the company line, and not rock the boat wth different or new ideas. I am certain that the next HC, if chosen by Brown, will be much worse than Marvin Lewis. Mike Brown loves his company guys, that is why guys like Sam Wyche, and Boomer Esiason got ran out of town, and guys like Marvin Lewis, and Andy Dalton have lifetime passes.

If the Marvin Lewis era ends after this season, it will be because he can no longer stand to tow the company line, and I wouldn’t blame him for that.

Of course Marvin and most of the rest of us did not want anything other than the trench players we needed.

You know where it all starts, run the ball, stop the run. Each sets up everything else.

It was obvious to me that MB made these draft picks thinking they would help sell tickets or prevent cancelations.

Especially at draft party when they strategically placed office personnel in suits all around to start cheering upon announcement when everybody else was like WTF.

Left immediately.

May have worked for short term tickets but is about to blow up in their faces on ticket sales after the debacle was proved.

Thought I would keep my seats until death, but does not feel that way anymore.

(12-12-2017, 09:47 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: He was not injured for like 4 straight weeks and saw no play. He was benched after one single route that Marvin heavily criticized him for "giving up" on.

This was after he was given 1 snap early in the season, fumbled it on a great play by the Houston player and then didn't see another snap the rest of the game.

The way Lewis spoke about Ross in press conferences made it apparent to me that he was unhappy with the selection and benched him out of spite.

I'm glad you have so much confidence in Lewis' ability to coach players. I don't. I saw several plays called where I thought "Unless Ross is a scam artist and somehow faked his entire final year at Washington and the pre-draft workouts, that play would have been better if Ross had the ball in his hands there." Simple stuff like end arounds that were given to Alex Erickson. Fine player. Not John Ross level talent.

So yea. Maybe Ross was unimpressive in practice, despite lighting college football and the combine on fire and being a top 10 pick. Maybe he was injured more than was let on (despite not being on the injury list and still not active on game days). Maybe Lewis was just speaking frankly in his press conferences for once (as he never does). Maybe the one comment he made was an isolated moment of frustration where he forgot that he's talking about a rookie and didn't give him the benefit of the doubt that he gives so many rookies and other young players (and older players too, actually).

Or maybe he just didn't like the pick (as this thread indicates) and spitefully benched him.

One has WAY more assumptions required to reach the conclusion that it does.

Occam's Razor man.

Lewis hate-benched him.

Yep. 

(12-12-2017, 10:03 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Or they didn't really want him. They've even spilled the beans that they were discussing putting him at CB  

That was a joke Marvin made. #FakeNews

(12-12-2017, 10:52 AM)ochocincos Wrote: This is pure speculation of course, but you might have hit on the core problem. Given that Duke Tobin is not officially a GM, Marvin does not report directly to him, so technically Tobin is his peer and not his boss. Marvin might have an issue having to essentially report to a peer and feels he has lost whatever power he had in the front office.

Duke Tobin is the Director of Player Personnel. Think about that title for a minute. Now ask yourself if Marv should feel he has any authority over Bill on matters involving players.

Input, sure. Authority? No.

(12-12-2017, 10:52 AM)Wyche Wrote: I agree with this too.....but to me, the Ross pick was a want, and not a need.  He was hurt, he didn't play much, and the line still sucks, and we still can't cover the middle of the field.  Which was the bigger need?

Well we'll strongly disagree there. Have you seen what we have going on outside of AJ?

The line was the bigger need, I'll give you that. 

I'm still okay with the Ross selection. Not going to judge the kid's career based on 1 season where the HC didn't want him.

We should've addressed the line in free agency, and we had the money and opportunity to do so. We didn't even have any visits for linemen. Pathetic.

(12-12-2017, 01:40 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: That was a joke Marvin made. #FakeNews

He's been toying with the media quite a bit lately. Good for him. He sees the light at the end of the tunnel.

(12-12-2017, 01:18 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I have. Did you know that ants can support up to 5000 times their own weight?

Are you John Ross' cousin or did Marvin steal your girlfriend? No foolin' I worked with Andre Hawkins' brother and a college student who worked for me was friends with Gio in college.

(12-12-2017, 12:45 PM)falsestart Wrote: Some interesting statistics during the Marvin Lewis era. Out of 133 players drafted since Lewis became coach only 16 became starters in their rookie season. They include:Eric Stienbach-G, Jerimi Johnson-FB, Landon Johnson-LB, Madieu Williams-S, Odell Thurman-LB, Andrew Whitworth-T-G, Rashad Jeanty-LB, Johnathan Joeseph-CB, Leon Hall-CB, Rey Mauluga-LB, Andy Dalton-QB, A.J. Green-WR, Kevin Zietler-G, Tyler Eifert-TE, Jeremy Hill-RB, Russell Bodine-C. There were 2 undrafted rookies that became starters in their rookie season. Vontaze Burfict-LB, Ryan Hewitt-HB. Some arguments could be said for certain players like Germaine Greshem who came in on 2 TE sets with starter Reggie Kelley or David Pollack who broke his neck, Chris Perry who was injured or Carson Palmer who sat and learned his first year. Bottom line is this: Only 4 first round picks out of 15 became starters in their rookie season. Looking back at the drafts of the Bengals it seems they always seem to pick BPA in the first round. Draft for need after. Has that been a bad draft strategy over the years? Should the Bengals have drafted more starters as rookies than they have? Did Marvin Lewis just not trust rookies to play in their first season? Argument could be made for all.

Could be that there just aren't that many rookies ready to start in the NFL right out of the gate if they don't have to....

(12-12-2017, 01:25 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Of course Marvin and most of the rest of us did not want anything other than the trench players we needed.

You know where it all starts, run the ball, stop the run. Each sets up everything else.

It was obvious to me that MB made these draft picks thinking they would help sell tickets or prevent cancelations.  

Especially at draft party when they strategically placed office personnel in suits all around to start cheering upon announcement when everybody else was like WTF.

Left immediately.

May have worked for short term tickets but is about to blow up in their faces on ticket sales after the debacle was proved.  

Thought I would keep my seats until death, but does not feel that way anymore.

Something about this doesn't make sense. The 9th overall pick wasn't our only opportunity to select a linemen. We could've went linemen somewhere else in the draft or (Heaven forbid) free agency. Why did we completely ignore it? We're assuming Marv wanted a lineman instead of Ross. There is no such rumor. Just that Marv wanted to keep Whit (the team did, too) and he didn't want Ross.

(12-12-2017, 01:40 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yep. 


That was a joke Marvin made. #FakeNews


Duke Tobin is the Director of Player Personnel. Think about that title for a minute. Now ask yourself if Marv should feel he has any authority over Bill on matters involving players.

Input, sure. Authority? No.


Well we'll strongly disagree there. Have you seen what we have going on outside of AJ?

The line was the bigger need, I'll give you that. 

I'm still okay with the Ross selection. Not going to judge the kid's career based on 1 season where the HC didn't want him.

We should've addressed the line in free agency, and we had the money and opportunity to do so. We didn't even have any visits for linemen. Pathetic.

Yes, Line was a bigger need, but now people are acting like we didn't need help at receiver at all and Ross was a wasted pick..... all the while seemingly forgetting last year when we had no receivers that could get open and catch....

(12-12-2017, 01:42 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: He's been toying with the media quite a bit lately. Good for him. He sees the light at the end of the tunnel.

...and that's good for us. The man had 15 years and couldn't win a playoff game. The light's green, he needs to go.

What's amazing is this team is one win away from matching last years win total. Would that tend to lead management to believe they were right about letting Whitworth and Zietler go? Would this team have been better with them? Would we have been better off keeping Rex Burkhead and not drafting Mixon? The way this team played against the Bears is just atrocious! Every one of our best players played terrible with still a shot for a playoff birth. I don't think Whitworth and Zietler would have changed that. I believe Palmer wanted out not because of Mike Brown but because of Marvin Lewis. Brown gave Palmer anything he wanted except a new coach. He made him the highest paid player, put his brother on the team, gave him TO. Then Brown turned around and gave Lewis everything he wanted by signing him time and time again giving him multiple chances to rebuild this team. Funny how maybe John Ross is Carson Palmer's Marvin Lewis.

(12-12-2017, 01:47 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Yes, Line was a bigger need, but now people are acting like we didn't need help at receiver at all and Ross was a wasted pick..... all the while seemingly forgetting last year when we had no receivers that could get open and catch....

Ross wasn't a bad pick. I'll say that even if he turns out to be a bust. The need was there and he was the best available. 

The mistake was not addressing the line at all. We had other ways of addressing it. 

(12-12-2017, 01:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Ross wasn't a bad pick. I'll say that even if he turns out to be a bust. The need was there and he was the best available. 

The mistake was not addressing the line at all. We had other ways of addressing it. 

No argument there.... depending on the same line that sucked with Whit and Zeitler, to play effectively without Whit and Zeitler,  and no other help was lunacy.

I am going to go out on a limb here, the Bengals planned this all along, even in our 50th Anniversary year. This was going to be a throw away season. Lewis was going to fulfill his contract, Whit knew this and was playing his final years on the sunny beaches in SoCal. John Ross was drafted for the future to compliment AJ down the road. PacMan was retained to make sure the younger DBs were ready. I think you will wholesale changes this off season with staff and players. Just my opinion of course..