(02-14-2018, 02:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1. Zimmer took over a team that was one year removed from making the playoffs.  Marvin inherited a team that had not had a single winning season in 12 years.

2. Mike Zimmer does not have the handicap of having Mike Brown as an owner.

3. And Zimmer still needed a complete miracle to win a single playoff game after blowing a 10 point lead in the fourth quarter.

4. And if I judged head coaches the way you do I would be saying that Dom Capers was better than Mike Zimmer.  Capers not only won a playoff game quicker than Zimmer, but he also has a better post season record than Zimmer.  That is the onnly thing that matters, right?

1. We're heading into year 16 for Marv. What does the 2002 team have to do with Marv not having a playoff win in 2018?

2. That Mike Brown handicap did not stop Marv from going 11-5, 10-6, 9-7, 10-6, 11-5, 10-5-1 and 12-4 in playoff years. Do you really think Mike Brown hindered Marv in the playoffs, but not so much in regular season?

3. Marvin Lewis has even been immune to miracles. 

4. Link to where I said "playoff wins are the only thing that matters"? 

I judge coaches on both, and Marv has been mediocre in regular season, and terrible in the playoffs. I guess you disagree with that assertion. 

(02-14-2018, 02:25 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: but for an owner to reply with a long winded excuse (or as you call it: whining) for why we haven't moved that needle is not interacting well with the fans. 

He said we struggled with O-line play.  He said we needed some fresh ideas.  He pointed out that we beoiught in a lot of new coaches.

The fact that he does not say exactly what you want him to say does not mean he is not interacting well with the fans,  As I have already said, no team in the league makes moves based on what the fans want.

(02-14-2018, 02:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The Bengals have improved dramatically under Marvin Lewis. 

You can argue about how much more they need to improve, but claiming they have not improved is ridiculous.

When have they progressed beyond making the playoffs? I don't believe he was talking about improvement from 2002. Anyone could improve from 2-14.

What dramatic improvement have we seen since the 2005 season (11-5 + first round exit)?

(02-14-2018, 02:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The part where he says that fans see a playoff appearance as the bare minimum?

(02-14-2018, 02:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The Bengals have improved dramatically under Marvin Lewis. 

You can argue about how much more they need to improve, but claiming they have not improved is ridiculous.

See your previous response sir.

(02-14-2018, 02:34 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 2. That Mike Brown handicap did not stop Marv from going 11-5, 10-6, 9-7, 10-6, 11-5, 10-5-1 and 12-4 in playoff years. Do you really think Mike Brown hindered Marv in the playoffs, but not so much in regular season?

Marvin's coaching did not stop him from winning all of those regular season games either.  Do you really think Marvin coaches that much different in the playoffs than he does in the regular season.

You don't think Mike Browns free agent policy has hurt the team at all?  You just think it is all about Marvin suddenly forgetting how to coach in the playoffs?

The fact is that when Marvin made the playoffs he usually did not have the talent of the top 8 teams in the league.  That is often the reason he lost.  And sometimes his best players failed to perform.  Marvin has never told Gio to fumble at the goal line, or Dalton to turn the ball over repeatedly, or the defense to disappear.

(02-14-2018, 02:39 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: When have they progressed beyond making the playoffs? I don't believe he was talking about improvement from 2002. Anyone could improve from 2-14.

What dramatic improvement have we seen since the 2005 season (11-5 + first round exit)?

Mike Brown is literally the only team owner that would suggest that fan's standards are too high.

(I'm talking about the remarks he made about fans "expecting playoff appearances" as a bare minimum.) How dare my customers have high expectations!

The fact that this clown hasn't won a playoff game in 27 years and is saying stuff like this is ridiculous. Just shows that he doesn't "get it".

(02-14-2018, 02:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Marvin's coaching did not stop him from winning all of those regular season games either.  Do you really think Marvin coaches that much different in the playoffs than he does in the regular season.

You don't think Mike Browns free agent policy has hurt the team at all?  You just think it is all about Marvin suddenly forgetting how to coach in the playoffs?

The fact is that when Marvin made the playoffs he usually did not have the talent of the top 8 teams in the league.  That is often the reason he lost.  And sometimes his best players failed to perform.  Marvin has never told Gio to fumble at the goal line, or Dalton to turn the ball over repeatedly, or the defense to disappear.

1. I think that may be part of the problem. The playoffs are different. 

2. A free agent or two would certainly not hurt, but these teams were talented enough to win double-digit games, and should've been talented enough to win a game or two out of seven tries.

3. Who says we didn't have top 8 talent? You don't think 2005, 2013 and 2015 were very talented teams? Weren't people saying we had the most talent in the league in those years?

4. Players didn't perform. I agree, and this has happened repeatedly with many many players. Coaching issue maybe? Maybe we're not putting players in the best position to be successful?

(02-14-2018, 02:39 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: What dramatic improvement have we seen since the 2005 season (11-5 + first round exit)?

Both the '13 and '15 teams were much better than the '05 team.

The '05 team was 11th in the league in point differential (#4 scoring offense but #22 scoring defense) and had a losing record (3-4) against other teams with winning records.

The '13 team was 4th in point differential (#6 offense, #5 defense) and 4-0 against other teams with winning records.

The '15 team was 5th in point differential (#7 offense, #2 defense) and was 3-2 against other winning teams when we had our starting QB.  We even took the Division Champion Broncos to overtime with our back up QB.

(02-14-2018, 02:53 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. I think that may be part of the problem. The playoffs are different.

No they are not.  Same rules.  Same coaching decisions.

(02-14-2018, 02:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you did not even read the article you linked did you?  You basically hear what you want to hear and ignore everything else.  Nowhere does he "deflect the blame".  Who do you claim he is deflecting the blame to?  And no where does he say "shut up and be happy".  Instead he repeatedly syas that they have not done well enough and need to improve.

"We had a disappointing season because we didn’t win our share of those close games that we could’ve, should’ve won. I think it goes beyond that, though. I think we tailed off in some areas that brought us down. I think those issues are correctable. I don’t think we’re far off. I think we can make the changes that we need to make and quickly rebound to the level where we were a couple years ago.”

"We have to do better in certain areas. We’re going to try to. They are different ways to attack each and every one of those problem areas that we have. We have talked about that repeatedly. Not just in the last couple weeks but over the course of the season."

"Everybody wants to win the Super Bowl. Obviously. That’s what we all want to do. We’re going to make our best effort to do that."

“We all want (to win the Super Bowl). Every owner wants that. Every coach wants that. I think Marvin said that because there is a theme amongst all the other themes that somehow we really don’t aspire to a high enough goal. That’s baloney. We’re no different than any other team. We all have the same goal. When you have to say publicly things such as that, you’re just playing a game of sorts. I guess you have to do it. So, Marvin felt the pressure and he said what he thought was going to quiet the onslaught in the moment. And that’s all right. But the basic thing is to keep in mind is yes, we want to do that. Everybody wants to do that. The guy that asked that question wants us to do that. We want to do it. And every team in the National Football League and their fans want to do it. It’s a given. To have to dwell on it is, to me, unnecessary. But maybe you do.”

“We were way off offensively last year. It starts with pass protection. We’ve got to get that up to standard. We have to run the ball more effectively than we did over the course of the year. At the end of the year, we were (more effective). So perhaps we’re closer to putting together one of those pieces that has to be corrected. The pass protection issue is still out there and we will work to try to make that what it needs to be. I honestly feel that on offense, overall, we have enough people to be good. We do intend to shore it up. That is one of our principal goals."

".  .  .  we’re coming off a run of playoff years and they began to see that as the bare minimum. Well, maybe for them it is. For most people in this league, it’s a pretty solid achievement. I think only a couple of other teams have managed that during that same time period. But we didn’t go forward from that. We didn’t have success in the playoffs. And that was our undoing."

"We haven’t quite gotten where we needed to get. He knows that. I know that.
"

Another truckload of crap from the King of Crap.  He says all that nonsense and then goes on the same way he always has.  Not everybody is fooled by his empty words.  You are. Fine.  But stop bitching about people not swallowing that garbage.  You are not the board police.  You might, however, be Geoff's little brother.

(02-14-2018, 06:43 PM)McC Wrote: Another truckload of crap from the King of Crap.  He says all that nonsense and then goes on the same way he always has.  Not everybody is fooled by his empty words.  You are. Fine.  But stop bitching about people not swallowing that garbage.  You are not the board police.   You might, however, be Geoff's little brother.

We were not discussing what he does.  We were discussing how he "talks to the fans"

You can have your own opinion about how much he does.  But your opinion can not change what he actually said.

(02-14-2018, 03:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Both the '13 and '15 teams were much better than the '05 team.

The '05 team was 11th in the league in point differential (#4 scoring offense but #22 scoring defense) and had a losing record (3-4) against other teams with winning records.

The '13 team was 4th in point differential (#6 offense, #5 defense) and 4-0 against other teams with winning records.

The '15 team was 5th in point differential (#7 offense, #2 defense) and was 3-2 against other winning teams when we had our starting QB.  We even took the Division Champion Broncos to overtime with our back up QB.

Yardage rankings and a dollar might get you a cup of coffee. We've never won a playoff game and we've never even managed to win enough games to secure a 1st round BYE. 

We have not progressed from 11-5 + wildcard playoff game + immediate playoff exit. That has been our peak, and it's often followed by regression rather than progression.

(02-14-2018, 03:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No they are not.  Same rules.  Same coaching decisions.

Different (better) teams. Smarter opposing coaches. Less room for error. It's probably the same reason Marv has such a poor record vs playoff teams in the regular season.

(02-13-2018, 02:06 PM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: do we get phil rivers in trade for macaroni?

Give me Keenan Allen.

(02-14-2018, 08:34 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Different (better) teams. Smarter opposing coaches. Less room for error. It's probably the same reason Marv has such a poor record vs playoff teams in the regular season.

Since 2012 Marvin has the 6th best record in the league against playoff teams

(02-15-2018, 04:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Since 2012 Marvin has the 6th best record in the league against playoff teams

So if that's the case, then why do you think our players under performed against teams during the playoffs?

(02-15-2018, 05:06 PM)sandwedge Wrote: So if that's the case, then why do you think our players under performed against teams during the playoffs?

Because the staff wilts under the pressure, and it rubs off on the team.

(02-15-2018, 05:06 PM)sandwedge Wrote: So if that's the case, then why do you think our players under performed against teams during the playoffs?

That is the question that none of us can answer.

The fans that hate the coaches will blame the coaches.

The fans that hate the players will blame the players.

the fact is that we have no way of knowing.  No former bengal has gone on to be a postseason star, and no bengal coach has gone on to look good in the playoffs with another team.

My guess is that it is a bit of both.  Some times the opposing team had more talent, but we did not just lose.  We usually got dominated.

(02-15-2018, 06:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is the question that none of us can answer.

The fans that hate the coaches will blame the coaches.

The fans that hate the players will blame the players.

the fact is that we have no way of knowing.  No former bengal has gone on to be a postseason star, and no bengal coach has gone on to look good in the playoffs with another team.

My guess is that it is a bit of both.  Some times the opposing team had more talent, but we did not just lose.  We usually got dominated.

Kind of how I see it honestly, a bit of both.

(02-14-2018, 03:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No they are not.  Same rules.  Same coaching decisions.

This is so patently false