(02-17-2018, 01:16 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Agree with a lot said here but not sure PA deserves a ton of credit on these players listed. 

Two points.

Although I agree that a lot of his big success were high draft picks you have to give himncfredit for having ZERO busts among all his 1st and 2nd rouns picks for over 20 years.  There are first and second round picks that flop all the time.

And when you start acting like it is no big deal to get a player like Boling in the fourth round you are really stretching.  There have been 172 OL drafted in the fourth round or later since we took Boling in 2011.  Of those 172 only Jason Kelce has more starts than Boling's 93, and only 12 of those 172 have even half as many starts of Boling.  It is not as easy as some people here claim when they say.  

Then there are the other projects that no one mentiosn.

Rich Braham was cut by the Cards and signed as a street free agent by the Bengals.

Stacy Andrews only played a handful of snaps and the Eagles gave him a $40 million free agent contract.

Nate Livings was an indrafted free agent that got a $20 illion deal from the Cowboys.

Evan Mathis never played at an elite level until two other teams cut him and PA coached him for a year.

Kyle Cook was a very good center (until he was injured) who was an undrafted free agent.

Anthony Collins was a 4th round pick who got a $30 million deal from Tampa Bay.

Finally you have to look at how these player did after they played well enough under PA to get thosecontracts.  Mathis was the onnly one who other coaches were ableto get the same level production from.

(02-18-2018, 02:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Two points.

Although I agree that a lot of his big success were high draft picks you have to give himncfredit for having ZERO busts among all his 1st and 2nd rouns picks for over 20 years.  There are first and second round picks that flop all the time.

And when you start acting like it is no big deal to get a player like Boling oin the fourth round you are really stretching.

Then there are the other projects that no one mentiosn.

Rich Braham was cut by the Cards and signed as a street free agent by the Bengals.

Stacy Andrews only played a handful of snaps and the Eagles gave him a $40 million free agent contract.

Nate Livings was an indrafted free agent that got a $20 illion deal from the Cowboys.

Evan Mathis never played at an elite level until two other teams cut him and PA coached him for a year.

Kyle Cook was a very good center (until he was injured) who was an undrafted free agent.

Anthony Collins was a 4th round pick who got a $30 million deal from Tampa Bay.

Finally you have to look at how these player did after they played well enough under PA to get thosecontracts.  Mathis was the onnly one who other coaches were ableto get the same level production from.

Don't forget Bobbie Williams.  He was incredibly underwhelming in Philly as a second round pick.  He was inactive all of his first season, never to become a full time starter until his fourth and final season there.  Even then it was due to injury in front of him.  He worked out pretty damn well under PA.

People laugh at the name Dennis Roland.  However they forget how he was coached up well enough to play a vital role for us in 2009 when Andre Smith's career didn't start off the way it needed to.

The most damning evidence again Jowls--he was the run game coordinator. How long has it been since we averaged 4/ypc? Until the OC took over the run game, that is. End of story. He got what he deserved--an invitation to not come back.

(02-18-2018, 05:11 PM)McC Wrote: The most damning evidence again Jowls--he was the run game coordinator.  How long has it been since we averaged 4/ypc?  Until the OC took over the run game, that is.  End of story.  He got what he deserved--an invitation to not come back.

Good lord, 4ypc would be great. 

(02-18-2018, 05:16 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Good lord, 4ypc would be great. 

4.0 might "seem" great, compared to where we've been.  But, that would barely get us to the bottom of the middle of the pack.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing/seasontype/2

(02-18-2018, 06:04 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: 4.0 might "seem" great, compared to where we've been.  But, that would barely get us to the bottom of the middle of the pack.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing/seasontype/2

Baby steps.

I don't think I'd be able to mention either Nate Livings or Stacy Andrews as even remotely success stories with a straight face. In both cases the team signing the player (Dallas and Philly) were laughed at around the league and both players were - in addition to being garbage here - spectacular busts on their new teams.

He also deserves no credit for Mathis and in fact basically pushed Mathis out when Mathis had already proven himself in favor of the incredibly bad Nate Livings. And Cook at his absolute best made it to sort of average - granted that such status is Pro Bowl compared to Bodine. And lest we forget Piano Man lobbied not only for Bodine but also Ghiacuc (another incredibly bad Center) and Ogbuehi (yet another disaster that proper scouting should have avoided).

(02-18-2018, 02:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Two points.

Although I agree that a lot of his big success were high draft picks you have to give himncfredit for having ZERO busts among all his 1st and 2nd rouns picks for over 20 years.  There are first and second round picks that flop all the time.

Do not have to go back 20 years to prove this statement a facade for your argument.

What about Cedric Ogbuehi and Jake Fischer ? 

Did love his 05 OL though. 

But even a broken watch is right twice a day. 

(02-19-2018, 02:29 AM)Joelist Wrote: I don't think I'd be able to mention either Nate Livings or Stacy Andrews as even remotely success stories with a straight face. In both cases the team signing the player (Dallas and Philly) were laughed at around the league and both players were - in addition to being garbage here - spectacular busts on their new teams.

He also deserves no credit for Mathis and in fact basically pushed Mathis out when Mathis had already proven himself in favor of the incredibly bad Nate Livings. And Cook at his absolute best made it to sort of average - granted that such status is Pro Bowl compared to Bodine. And lest we forget Piano Man lobbied not only for Bodine but also Ghiacuc (another incredibly bad Center) and Ogbuehi (yet another disaster that proper scouting should have avoided).

No other teams laughed at the Eagles or Cowboys for those signings.  That is just a lie made up to bash the Bengals. In fact many fans around here claim the Eagles were so much smarter than us because they signed Mathis when he was finished here.  It is a perfect example of the mental gymnastics that some fans are capable of when they start bending reality in order to make the Bengals look bad.

"The same Eagles coaches were brilliant for signing Mathis but stupid for signing Andrews. Derp."

Mathis was nothing special and had been cut by two teams before Paul coached him up.  The next year ('09) Mathis started in from of Livings until he was injured.  that was the year he was recognized as playing on a high level.  In '10 Mathis was an out-of-shpe slob who did not deserve playing time.  That is why despite looking so good in '09 he had to settle for a league minimum contract to be a back up for the Eagles in '11.  But when he got back in shape (he made a video showing the off season transformation) he again played at a very high level.

Ghiaciuc only started two seasons as our starting Center.  Cook replaced him and was much better than "sort of average".  he only allowed 6 sacks in his first three years as a starer (48 games) and Pat Kirwan listed him as a "Pro Bowl snub".

(02-19-2018, 03:34 AM)Go Cards Wrote: But even a broken watch is right twice a day. 

Over the first 7 years that PFF kept stats to rank offensive lines ('09-'15) the Bengals were ranked number one in the league in pass protection.

(02-18-2018, 05:11 PM)McC Wrote: The most damning evidence again Jowls--he was the run game coordinator.  How long has it been since we averaged 4/ypc?  Until the OC took over the run game, that is.  End of story.  He got what he deserved--an invitation to not come back.

Worst run blocking O-line coach in the NFL hands down.

(02-19-2018, 02:29 AM)Joelist Wrote: I don't think I'd be able to mention either Nate Livings or Stacy Andrews as even remotely success stories with a straight face. In both cases the team signing the player (Dallas and Philly) were laughed at around the league and both players were - in addition to being garbage here - spectacular busts on their new teams.

He also deserves no credit for Mathis and in fact basically pushed Mathis out when Mathis had already proven himself in favor of the incredibly bad Nate Livings. And Cook at his absolute best made it to sort of average - granted that such status is Pro Bowl compared to Bodine. And lest we forget Piano Man lobbied not only for Bodine but also Ghiacuc (another incredibly bad Center) and Ogbuehi (yet another disaster that proper scouting should have avoided).

Gutcheck was worse than Bodine if that could be possible...

(02-19-2018, 01:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Over the first 7 years that PFF kept stats to rank offensive lines ('09-'15) the Bengals were ranked number one in the league in pass protection.

I call BS. Convenient that we also have the QB that gets the ball out 2nd fastest in the NFL.

What were they ranked in run blocking?

(02-17-2018, 12:47 PM)samhain Wrote: Yep.  It's not like he was totally getting by on being favored by the family.  He got results.  Rarely did they spend a high pick on an offensive tackle that didn't meet or exceed expectations.  You could say Andre, but he wasn't a bad player by any stretch, he just lacked discipline and professionalism.  If I had to come up with something the organization was consistently good at before 15, I'd probably say finding really good OTs and developing them.

The 15 draft was a departure and an extremely costly one for PA and the team in general.  

My opinion....he started losing his credentials at the end of the Palmer era.  The Pro Bowl talent had left, and we had to implement unbalanced sets to even move the ball on the ground.....with a fullback.  Some of his pets were awful....Livings, Roland, to name a few.  The run game has never really recovered, aside from one anomaly in Jeremy Hill.  The only time we saw improvement was when Lazor went away from PAs scheme and then PAs selected players were forced to the bench with injury.  He should have been fired at least 8 years ago.

I'm not going to rehash the numbers, but the run game has been in the low to mid 20s in YPC for over a decade.  We find out this season that PA was also the run game coordinator.  His time had passed here.  I'll agree, at one time, he was a good coach here.  That was about 10 years ago.  Another in a line of coaches that stayed well beyond their shelf life.  The line from 2011 on, has really been overrated too.  Center was still a weak link.  It was compensated by overall good play on either side.....but Dalton was still helping the sack numbers somewhat by getting the ball out very quickly.  The run game still sucked.

(02-17-2018, 01:16 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Agree with a lot said here but not sure PA deserves a ton of credit on these players listed. 

Big Willie…… (one of my all time favs) was already an all american coming out of HS, drafted 10th overall in NFL and was the very 1st T taken in draft. He basically had his choice of Tackles coming out. 

Levi Jones….. another player drafted with 10th overall pick and was 3rd T taken that year. 

Whit….. fell to 55th pick but was still the 4th T taken off the board and not given up a sack in last 22 games in the SEC. Know I was excited he was coming. 

Steinbach….. 33rd overall pick but was the very 1st G off the board that year and was Big Ten Offensive Player of the Year. 

Andre Smith…… 6th overall player taken, highest of all listed and was 2nd T taken in draft. Seemed to play great in contract years but just go through the motions at times.  

Clint Boling….. willing to give him this one being the 101st player taken, but was still the 4th G taken that year.

Do not consider the top guys in their class as developmental players.  Yet still agree with many other things said. 

Yup.....and as I've posted many times, Boling was regarded as high as a 2nd round pick going into that draft, and was thought of as one of the best guards in it.

(02-19-2018, 01:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No other teams laughed at the Eagles or Cowboys for those signings.  That is just a lie made up to bash the Bengals. In fact many fans around here claim the Eagles were so much smarter than us because they signed Mathis when he was finished here.  It is a perfect example of the mental gymnastics that some fans are capable of when they start bending reality in order to make the Bengals look bad.

"The same Eagles coaches were brilliant for signing Mathis but stupid for signing Andrews. Derp."

Mathis was nothing special and had been cut by two teams before Paul coached him up.  The next year ('09) Mathis started in from of Livings until he was injured.  that was the year he was recognized as playing on a high level.  In '10 Mathis was an out-of-shpe slob who did not deserve playing time.  That is why despite looking so good in '09 he had to settle for a league minimum contract to be a back up for the Eagles in '11.  But when he got back in shape (he made a video showing the off season transformation) he again played at a very high level.

Ghiaciuc only started two seasons as our starting Center.  Cook replaced him and was much better than "sort of average".  he only allowed 6 sacks in his first three years as a starer (48 games) and Pat Kirwan listed him as a "Pro Bowl snub".

Except it was Howard Mudd that coached him up.

(02-20-2018, 10:13 AM)Wyche Wrote: Except it was Howard Mudd that coached him up.

Wrong.  Mathis played great in '09 under PA.  For the FIRST time in his career.

And how did Howard Mudd do with Stacy Andrews?  How many teams were throwing $40 million at Andrews after Mudd had coached him for a couple of years?

(02-20-2018, 10:03 AM)Wyche Wrote: Yup.....and as I've posted many times, Boling was regarded as high as a 2nd round pick going into that draft, and was thought of as one of the best guards in it.

Still a fourth round pick.  You can spin all you want but it ios clear how NFL teams rated Boling.  Not worth more than a 4th round pick.

(02-20-2018, 10:20 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Still a fourth round pick.  You can spin all you want but it ios clear how NFL teams rated Boling.  Not worth more than a 4th round pick.

I'm not "spinning" anything.  That's what the scouting reports said.   I've linked NUMEROUS reports calling him a 2nd to 3rd round pick, NUMEROUS times.  I'm not going to do it again.  Players, and positions, sometimes drop in the draft for a multitude of reasons every year.  It doesn't change the fact that Boling was ranked among the best Gs in that draft.  In fact, a lot of pundits (you know, those same pundits you allude to all the time to support your ideas) say he dropped because he was seen as a "tweener", and no one really knew where to stick him.  He played so many positions so well.  He was a pretty polished player coming out of Georgia whether you want to admit it or not.

(02-20-2018, 10:18 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Wrong.  Mathis played great in '09 under PA.  For the FIRST time in his career.

And how did Howard Mudd do with Stacy Andrews?  How many teams were throwing $40 million at Andrews after Mudd had coached him for a couple of years?

Where was he playing when he went the Pro Bowl numerous times?

Stacy Andrews was garbage here.....not sure what your point is.  Surely you jest when you insinuate that Piano Man is as good as Mudd.

(02-20-2018, 10:29 AM)Wyche Wrote: Where was he playing when he went the Pro Bowl numerous times?

Stacy Andrews was garbage here.....not sure what your point is.  Surely you jest when you insinuate that Piano Man is as good as Mudd.

He actually misstated what I wrote - I said the Free Agent contracts given Stacy Andrews and Nate Livings earned their teams ridicule - which they did. I did not say Evan Mathis earned the Eagles ridicule.

(02-20-2018, 10:49 AM)Joelist Wrote: He actually misstated what I wrote - I said the Free Agent contracts given Stacy Andrews and Nate Livings earned their teams ridicule - which they did. I did not say Evan Mathis earned the Eagles ridicule.

I know......I'm with you.  He was good in his time, it's just that his time was a little over 10 years ago.