(03-11-2018, 10:58 AM)samhain Wrote: Well, to be fair, apparently Nick Vigil worked out well enough that they're ready to hand him a starting job in 2018.  I think he sucks, but they sure seem to think he's terrific.

True, but... That really isn't saying much

(03-11-2018, 11:07 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: This. There is definitely some truth to Mike running the franchise as he thought his father would (though I have a tough time believing that Paul would have let things get as bad a Mike did without making some major changes). 

Mike has a lot of flaws but his biggest is his sheer incompetence as an owner.. He simply doesn't know what he is doing, and he cannot swallow his pride and admit it. Plus, yknow, hiring a real GM would cost him his yearly $1 million bonus   And god forbid that new GM wants to build a practice bubble 

Yup. Mike Brown knows what he's doing doesn't lead to winning football games the same way we know we "should" be working out and eating right while we watch netflix and eat ice cream.  We do what is rewarding for us, even when we know it's not the best of actions.  Mike Brown knows...and therein lies the gravity of the situation.

He knows.  He isn't goign to wake up one day and say "Holy crap, what I'm doing isn't working...I had no idea!  Let's change things right away"  

He knows.  Alas, Mike Brown knows.

(03-11-2018, 01:50 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Every team has a budget and every team is strict with there budget. The problem with the Bengals is they keep guys  who they know are not worth with what they are getting paid past their prime and thus keeps their bugdet lower than other teams. For example do we really need MJ, V Rey,  or Laffell on the team? Did we really need Pat Sims last season? Did we need Robert Geathers from 2012 to 2014? Did we need Leon Hall in 15?  I could go on and On but I think I made my point.

This is one of the bigger underlying problems with this team. Hanging on to aging/under performing vets way to long and in large part  due to Mikey's loyalty contract doings. There's a couple of post Bengals success stories but by and large the bulk of finally let go X Bengals never do anything after their release.

There's still another 3 or 4 players besides A. Jones who should not make this team and most likely all of them will. And if they were let go their NFL career would most likely flame out pretty fast.

We can't improve because of it.

(03-11-2018, 01:50 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Every team has a budget and every team is strict with there budget. The problem with the Bengals is they keep guys  who they know are not worth with what they are getting paid past their prime and thus keeps their bugdet lower than other teams. For example do we really need MJ, V Rey,  or Laffell on the team? Did we really need Pat Sims last season? Did we need Robert Geathers from 2012 to 2014? Did we need Leon Hall in 15?  I could go on and On but I think I made my point.

^ This is the gist of it, right here?

The Bengals spend too much bad money. They could make plenty of moves but they choose to stay conservative, mostly. 

(03-11-2018, 11:02 AM)samhain Wrote: Players don't care about that.  They want money.  Jacksonville was a complete disaster for years and signed some of the most expensive free agents in the league over the last couple of offseasons.  They want money first and foremost.

Jacksonville free agents saw they were trying to win a championship. That's what attracted them as well as the money. And well....Their gamble paid off. That team is in better shape and closer then the Bengals.

First of all, let me say that I agree something "isn't right" about our free agency, but I don't think the NFL is "fixed" like the OP is wont to claim.

Next let me ask how many of you kept reading after this line? 

(03-11-2018, 12:17 AM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: Every damn year since 2011 I have done a group on facebook for this team . I remember the first off-season. Anybody who wanted a free agent was about attacked and told we do it the right way that's through the draft.

At this point I could exactly predict where this thread was going.  Some of the most consistently negative members piling in to brag about they are the only ones among the fan base who are smart enough to understand "reality".  All the while agreeing with the guy who thinks the NFL is fixed.

Keep on keeping it "real", guys. 

(03-11-2018, 12:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: First of all, let me say that I agree something "isn't right" about our free agency, but I don't think the NFL is "fixed" like the OP is wont to claim.

Next let me ask how many of you kept reading after this line? 


At this point I could exactly predict where this thread was going.  Some of the most consistently negative members piling in to brag about they are the only ones among the fan base who are smart enough to understand "reality".  All the while agreeing with the guy who thinks the NFL is fixed.

Keep on keeping it "real", guys. 

You quoted me then deleted, then posted this, so i assume you're talking about me since your sentences are like verbatim from my comments - lol. Gotta be slicker than than Fred.

You have a problem of seeing the difference between "reality" and "negativity". You can join the Browns fan base if you'd like! They are always positive. I mean that's what most of us are looking for actually, just a good time, not any bowl (or maybe a playoff win every 50 years). That's sarcasm by the way, I don't think realists care about how you want to be fan. Be happy or be sad about how our team plays, it doesn't affect how they play anyway lol.

You think there isn't any shadiness in a business that makes this much money? That's ridiculous, everyone is trying to cheat, and those that are getting away with it are winning championships. So maybe the NFL isn't fixed but the rules we think they play by, don't happen.

(03-11-2018, 12:53 PM)reuben.ahmed Wrote:  I don't think realists care about how you want to be fan.

Speak for yourself Reuben.  One of the biggest hobbies of many "realists" is to blame people who buy tickets and buy merchandise for empowering the evil dictator.

Sorry to take this off tracks.  It just gets old being called ignorant because I have a positive attitude.

(03-11-2018, 12:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: First of all, let me say that I agree something "isn't right" about our free agency, but I don't think the NFL is "fixed" like the OP is wont to claim.

Next let me ask how many of you kept reading after this line? 


At this point I could exactly predict where this thread was going.  Some of the most consistently negative members piling in to brag about they are the only ones among the fan base who are smart enough to understand "reality".  All the while agreeing with the guy who thinks the NFL is fixed.

Keep on keeping it "real", guys. 

Why are you talking about yourself like that Fred? Because that's how you perceive yourself on these boards ,everyone is wrong and you are right . And if you was wrong you'd never admit it. Now every year for the rest of your days on earth you can say draft is the only way to win since you got offended by that quote.even though we don't win playoff games.but yeah that's the only way to win.

And here we have the explanation of how Bengalsturntup4what ended up with a facebook group where everyone attacked him for suggesting the Bengals need to sign more free agents.

Turnt read this

(03-11-2018, 12:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: First of all, let me say that I agree something "isn't right" about our free agency,

And said this

(03-11-2018, 01:58 PM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: Now every year for the rest of your days on earth you can say draft is the only way to win

:troll:

(03-11-2018, 11:07 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: This. There is definitely some truth to Mike running the franchise as he thought his father would (though I have a tough time believing that Paul would have let things get as bad a Mike did without making some major changes). 

Mike has a lot of flaws but his biggest is his sheer incompetence as an owner.. He simply doesn't know what he is doing, and he cannot swallow his pride and admit it. Plus, yknow, hiring a real GM would cost him his yearly $1 million bonus   And god forbid that new GM wants to build a practice bubble 

Mike Brown does not run the franchise like his father did.

Paul was one of those football men who drove innovation in the NFL, from playbooks, face masks, practice squads, film study, etc, etc. He was all about changing to improve.

If Paul were around today, he would still be driving the league.

Mikey, on the other hand, has no innovation skill whatsoever. He can only try to run things the way they were back decades ago because his father is not around to drive change.

Mikey fights change where as his father drove change.

That is how they are different. That is why Paul has numerous championships and Mikey never will have even one.

Free Agency is not the singular formula to success but it is part of the makeup of that formula.

The problem with the Bengals is that they recognize that it is indeed essential... just not how much importance it really has by the added attributes brought by said free agent.

In other words....

Quit using it for stop gap players and players that are already on the roster and start adding players to make a better team than before!!

As fans that's it. That's all we really want.

Progress not just sustainability.

The course that is set by ownership is flat out proof that the desire to win is trumped by sustainability of money flow.

(03-11-2018, 02:57 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Mike Brown does not run the franchise like his father did.

Paul was one of those football men who drove innovation in the NFL, from playbooks, face masks, practice squads, film study, etc, etc. He was all about changing to improve.

If Paul were around today, he would still be driving the league.

Mikey, on the other hand, has no innovation skill whatsoever. He can only try to run things the way they were back decades ago because his father is not around to drive change.

Mikey fights change where as his father drove change.

That is how they are different. That is why Paul has numerous championships and Mikey never will have even one.

But Paul stopped his innovation short of free agency, a thing he hated, and that is where Mike took over, hence, the problem.  And when he was somehow convinced to go bigger in FA, he got burned.

(03-11-2018, 11:04 AM)Nately120 Wrote: There are teams that players will take a discount to play for, but we're much closer to the "I need team X to pay me more to not win there" side of that coin, though.  I will say it's still amusing that people couldn't believe Whitworth would take more money to play for a hopeless franchise like the Rams when he could stay here and maybe win a ring.

If it's an older player who's already had a big contract and is sitting on the back 9 of his career, then I agree that they'll consider the prospective team's chances at winning a title before choosing.  Ironically, with the Bengals approach to FA spending and cap, those vets are just the kinds of guys they can afford/use.  

Going to be a tough sell to get guys like that now.  The Bengals are a bad football team based on the last two years.  Nobody's coming here to win a title.  They're going to have to pay at last market to acquire outside talent at this point.

(03-11-2018, 04:03 PM)samhain Wrote: If it's an older player who's already had a big contract and is sitting on the back 9 of his career, then I agree that they'll consider the prospective team's chances at winning a title before choosing.  Ironically, with the Bengals approach to FA spending and cap, those vets are just the kinds of guys they can afford/use.  

Going to be a tough sell to get guys like that now.  The Bengals are a bad football team based on the last two years.  Nobody's coming here to win a title.  They're going to have to pay at last market to acquire outside talent at this point.

True...  but a nicely formed contract could attract desirable FAs.

Bengals in reality do need to put forth more effort and take more chances than most others in Free Agency.

(03-11-2018, 03:01 PM)McC Wrote: But Paul stopped his innovation short of free agency, a thing he hated, and that is where Mike took over, hence, the problem.  And when he was somehow convinced to go bigger in FA, he got burned.

Paul never lived to see the unfettered free agency we have today.  

(03-11-2018, 06:01 PM)ElkValleyBengal Wrote: Paul never lived to see the unfettered free agency we have today.  

Very good point. Nothing like it used to be.

Paul Brown was not afraid to blaze new trails and be a leader.

He will always be respected in NFL lore.

(03-11-2018, 12:39 AM)samhain Wrote: I think it's tough to sell anyone that's paying attention the line that you can win a title without being at least somewhat active in outside free agency.  Team building through the draft certainly is the most important aspect of acquiring talent, but that talent needs to be supplemented.  

If you hope to achieve the highest goal in the NFL, then avoiding free agency is like fighting with one hand behind your back.  You can get to be a decent team without it, but so will others.  Then the others will add free agents, then you will be passed on the food chain.

Now, if the Bengals had 11 first round picks LOL, maybe they could get enough top players to contend for a SB. Until then, it's not going to happen.

(03-11-2018, 03:16 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Hard to get good FA to come here because we are not SB contenders.

When we start knocking on that door players will want to come.

Who could blame any player for choosing NE over Cincinnati ?

Players want to win SB and solidify their name in history.

Unless someone just throws an absurd amount of money at them they will always choose the better team.  

Can not blame them either.  Am a Bengals fan and would choose most teams over them if having to choose for same money.

Maybe a little less money even.

This IS the same reason we still have Marvin Lewis