(03-16-2018, 05:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Four game suspension saves us $1.7 million we can use to sign another free agent.

Haven't read all 4 pages, but no way in hell do we release Burfict over this.  Our defense sucked without him.

(03-16-2018, 05:32 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: Really? Against the Steelers last season he kicked their FB in the head and later in the game looked over his shoulder to see the FB coming his way and then flung his hands out to hit him in the head. Plus there was the Titans game last year when he stepped on a players arm and then got ejected for touching the ref. I'm sure there's more, but those were both last season and both off the top of my head.

I would contend that the extra curriculars happen in every game from players on every team. 

Burfict is our enforcer, something these modern Bengals have been without for far too long, and it just so happens that he plays in the same division and represents the biggest threat to the league's preferred team. 

Nothing that happens in Cincy/Pissburgh games are on the up-and-up, and there really should be little doubt or surprise that the Steelers shamelessly try to stir up controversy and then cry foul to capitalize on their baked-in advantage. 

(03-16-2018, 06:08 PM)The Gooney Rule Wrote: I would contend that the extra curriculars happen in every game from players on every team. 

Burfict is our enforcer, something these modern Bengals have been without for far too long, and it just so happens that he plays in the same division and represents the biggest threat to the league's preferred team. 

Nothing that happens in Cincy/Pissburgh games are on the up-and-up, and there really should be little doubt or surprise that the Steelers shamelessly try to stir up controversy and then cry foul to capitalize on their baked-in advantage. 

I get that. However, he's been fined and suspended multiple times for these actions and others. He should knock it off. He can still play physically and still be the enforcer without getting involved in these other things. He just won't. I love that he hates Pittsburgh. I believe he probably hates them as much as we fans do. Just keep it clean. Don't instigate and don't take the bait.

Wait, Burfict suspended to start the season???

Well shock me silly I say..

I'm willing to wait and see how the appeal comes out. Hope it was a simple mistake that gets corrected

From the edit in ESPN, it's not as malicious or intentional as the media and our emotions made it out to be initially. I'm willing to slow down and reserve judgement. Don't wanna spend any unnecessary words, energy, and typing yet. I like Tez. Old school passionate football players are being fazed out. He's just ultra competetive like Grayson Allen.

(03-16-2018, 06:10 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: I get that. However, he's been fined and suspended multiple times for these actions and others. He should knock it off. He can still play physically and still be the enforcer without getting involved in these other things. He just won't. I love that he hates Pittsburgh. I believe he probably hates them as much as we fans do. Just keep it clean. Don't instigate and don't take the bait.

Very fair take. 

Can definitely get behind a reform of his impulses (if that's even possible; certainly not as easy thing to do for a lot of people, regardless of how much money is at stake - and I bring up money, because that's a common take on these matters - "he's making millions, and can't stop being selfish while he hurts the team....I just don't think that's how the human mind or emotions work when it comes to acting on impulse.) 

Doesn't mean it doesn't hurt the team. It definitely does, I can agree with you on that. I agree with you on your take to clean it up though for the team's benefit. I'm also saying that even if he doesn't change his ways, what he does manage to give the team is of some value in terms of wins/loses, and for my own selfish fan experience, I like watching him when he's in there. I think his contract is not a make or break issue in the grand scheme of things, and with fear of repeating myself, even at far from the best version of himself, what he brings to the team is better than anybody filling out the final linebacker spot on the roster.

It's almost like they are trying to find something to suspend Burfict on. There's just no way you can suspend a guy for PEDs when he was already out for the season. What a joke.

(03-16-2018, 06:22 PM)Yogo Wrote: From the edit in ESPN, it's not as malicious or intentional as the media and our emotions made it out to be initially. I'm willing to slow down and reserve judgement. Don't wanna spend any unnecessary words, energy, and typing yet. I like Tez. Old school passionate football players are being fazed out. He's just ultra competetive like Grayson Allen.

The vast majority of NFL players are ultra competitive. Grayson Allen is a cheap shot artist.

(03-16-2018, 06:28 PM)The Gooney Rule Wrote: Very fair take. 

Can definitely get behind a reform of his impulses (if that's even possible; certainly not as easy thing to do for a lot of people, regardless of how much money is at stake - and I bring up money, because that's a common take on these matters - "he's making millions, and can't stop being selfish while he hurts the team....I just don't think that's how the human mind or emotions work when it comes to acting on impulse.) 

Doesn't mean it doesn't hurt the team. It definitely does, I can agree with you on that. I agree with you on your take to clean it up though for the team's benefit. I'm also saying that even if he doesn't change his ways, what he does manage to give the team is of some value in terms of wins/loses, and for my own selfish fan experience, I like watching him when he's in there. I think his contract is not a make or break issue in the grand scheme of things, and with fear of repeating myself, even at far from the best version of himself, what he brings to the team is better than anybody filling out the final linebacker spot on the roster.

Thank you for having a civilized discussion. I really appreciate it. Neither of us are putting each other down, calling each other names, or twisting what the other is saying. Kudos to you!

See, I agree that Burfict greatly improves our D. That's why I want him to be around 16 games instead of 10-12. I'd rather have him on the field 100% of the games instead of closer to 60%. He is, without question, a difference maker for our D.

I love his fire and intensity. I love that he lays the wood. He is the heart and soul of the D. That's why I call him selfish when he gets in trouble and misses time. It has a negative impact on our defense. They're not the same without him on the field. I don't want him to clean it up for the fans, I don't want him to clean it up to save money, I want him to clean it up because he owes it to the team and his teammates.

I agree that he does add value regardless of how many games he plays, but that's why I want him to play in all of them. You and I have a very similar view of Burfict. I don't quite think he's a once in a generation type player, but he's one of the greatest LBs in team history for sure. If he were on the team 30 years ago, we'd beat Montana and the 49ers in the Super Bowl.

Though I've been called a hater and bad fan, I actually like Burfict. He's just a distraction and a headache. If he can't clean it up, I want him gone. It's not about his talent or ability, he has plenty of both. It's about playing smarter and within the rules.

(03-16-2018, 06:04 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: It's gotten to the point where personally I'm ready to say enough is enough. Good riddance to Adam Jones. Now I'm not ready to cut Burfict and have him get signed by one of our rivals, but I believe it's time that the Bengals suspend him on their own for conduct detrimental (whether this means an actual suspension or just a benching for some games in addition to the NFL levied suspension, is up to whatever the CBA allows them). I wasn't sure if he is smart enough to get what has been going on for the last few years, but I'm starting to lean towards he probably just isn't ever going to "get it". This internal suspension would be my final chance to see if there's any type of action that can impress upon him the tightest rope he is walking in regards to his career, but if that doesn't do it I'm not sure anything else will. It might already be too late. I know how valuable he is to the defense, and that is the only reason he gets one more chance (in the scenario that I laid out). The defense will suffer big time without him, but I worry if no serious steps are taken, VB will be out of the league soon, and the defense will have to play without him anyway.

Now I will wait and see how his appeal goes, but just based on what I've heard, this excuse of "I was hurt and not playing so I can't be gaining a competitive advantage by taking something" just shows a total lack of intelligence (especially for a fifth or whatever year veteran). I hope that the excuse that I just wrote is not what he actually plans to claim, and I hope this is just a misunderstanding that he can clear up with the NFL and get his suspension overturned, but based on his attitude and the perception of the NFL towards him I'm not optimistic. And for him to think that anything but choirboy behavior is an option for him just emphasizes that he doesn't get it. Fair or not, that's the situation in which he finds himself. I'm neither saying it's fair or otherwise. It's also possible that Marvin has coddled him to the point that Vontaze doesn't have the chance to "get it", but I will give Marvin more credit than that, unless it is shown otherwise (this is only about Marvin's mentoring of VB, not about anything else).

That's a respectable position. 

I would be gutted to see him succeed with someone else. I feel the same as you about any potential impact of Marvin's influence - will give him the benefit of the doubt until any report to the contrary. 

(03-16-2018, 05:54 PM)The Gooney Rule Wrote: Hey there - real quick to start - your name is one of my favorites around here - can never read it without doing it in a Robin Williams/Good Will Hunting voice where he and Matt Damon are having a Taster's Choice moment between guys.

Not sure exactly where you're going with your comment though, except to expect that it comes from the same seemingly bottomless pit of frustration we all probably share from that playoff game. Lot of blame to go around, and I agree there were 3 easy plays/incidents to point to when ticking them off a long list.

But I will contend that Burfict's play was simply incredible that game, and absolutely instrumental in getting us to the point it should have been over. 

For a personal backstory - I was on crutches, and watching the game on a small tablet with a sketchy internet connection halfway around the world, and as soon as Vontaze picked off Pig Ben and took the party to the tunnel, I was gimp-sprinting on adrenaline up and down a hallway at an ungodly hour with the time change, alternating f bombs, who deys, and nature boy whoooo's....such a great feeling to see a big time play like that in such a big game.

I personally have zero problem with the play he made on Brown a little later, having to saddle back up on the field after the unfortunate fumble by Hill. Vontaze is a warrior, and he's going to bring it, and leave it out there. You smack Brown in case he comes down with the ball (the new rules are beyond lame, essentially allowing the refs/league to decide if a receiver should be given the chance to catch, or not catch, a ball without getting popped either way, when it suits them.) 

These plays are bang-bang, and Brown moved into the hit, intentionally or not, and at that point, the game was put in the refs hands (something that will NEVER benefit the Bengals in that scenario.) This was confirmed a few minutes later with the failure to call offsetting penalties on Porter/PacMan. (And just to let us know where we are in the pecking order, recall the league's deference to Pissburgh even later in the year with the fine against Munchak for pulling Reggie's hair quietly rescinded.) 

At any rate, I completely get any disgust for that wildcard game, and certainly the Bengals deserve a healthy amount of heat from the fans for some of their performance, but in regards to whether or not Burfict's current value to the team is in doubt because of this potential suspension, I don't follow where you stand from your comment above. 

Would you feel he can make a positive contribution, even in limited action, beyond what the last LB on the team could do (think Nickerson or Dimanche in past years...)? I'm sure you can tell, I definitely do.



 

On any given play Burfict could make a positive contribution. And on any given play he could make a negative contribution negating his previous positive plays. Historically, usually when the team can least afford it. Marvin let's him get away with his crap and makes excuses enabling more crap. The hit on Brown in the playoff game is a prime example of his stupidity which goes back to his college play.

(03-16-2018, 06:32 PM)cinci4life Wrote: It's almost like they are trying to find something to suspend Burfict on. There's just no way you can suspend a guy for PEDs when he was already out for the season. What a joke.

So you're okay with the Steelers taking anabolic steroids and HGH as long as it is during the offseason conditioning program?

(03-16-2018, 06:40 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: Thank you for having a civilized discussion. I really appreciate it. Neither of us are putting each other down, calling each other names, or twisting what the other is saying. Kudos to you!

See, I agree that Burfict greatly improves our D. That's why I want him to be around 16 games instead of 10-12. I'd rather have him on the field 100% of the games instead of closer to 60%. He is, without question, a difference maker for our D.

I love his fire and intensity. I love that he lays the wood. He is the heart and soul of the D. That's why I call him selfish when he gets in trouble and misses time. It has a negative impact on our defense. They're not the same without him on the field. I don't want him to clean it up for the fans, I don't want him to clean it up to save money, I want him to clean it up because he owes it to the team and his teammates.

I agree that he does add value regardless of how many games he plays, but that's why I want him to play in all of them. You and I have a very similar view of Burfict. I don't quite think he's a once in a generation type player, but he's one of the greatest LBs in team history for sure. If he were on the team 30 years ago, we'd beat Montana and the 49ers in the Super Bowl.

Though I've been called a hater and bad fan, I actually like Burfict. He's just a distraction and a headache. If he can't clean it up, I want him gone. It's not about his talent or ability, he has plenty of both. It's about playing smarter and within the rules.

Not a problem in the slightest - good conversation helps me clarify and refine my own opinions. 

In fact, you've done a better job of expressing what I now realize I mean when I think of his legacy as a player. Generational-type player TO THE FRANCHISE (especially considering the dregs we've been dealt a lot of years at that position) is more in line with what I consider reality too.  

And right there with you on wondering what a ride it would be if he could manage to bring it for a full 16 games while we have what's left of this window. 

Lmao This is classic. Some of you guys were just giving the few of us a hard time on the trade thread. This is one of the reasons that we didn’t mind the trade idea, get it now?????

(03-16-2018, 07:01 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: Lmao This is classic. Some of you guys were just giving the few of us a hard time on the trade thread. This is one of the reasons that we didn’t mind the trade idea, get it now?????

No.  The trade idea is no less of a bad idea today than it was yesterday.

(03-16-2018, 05:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Four game suspension saves us $1.7 million we can use to sign another free agent.

Haven't read all 4 pages, but no way in hell do we release Burfict over this.  Our defense sucked without him.

Maybe we could still get Gerald Hodges.  He certainly wouldn't be a break the bank signing, and is one of few real fits at the SLB spot.  

Not saying it would be an heath-shattering addition, but he'd be some nice veteran depth.

(03-16-2018, 03:50 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Too many conversations going on here. He was popped for PEDS. That means it was not marijuana and it was not pain medication. It was something on the PED list. Now, since he is recovering from multiple concussions and a shoulder injury, I can very well see a doctor giving him steroids to reduce swelling and help healing. If a doctor gave it to him for a legitimate medical reason, just like the guys taking adderal who have legit need and not just to increase focus, then he will win his appeal. If not, he won't. I'm going to wait to see.....

100% correct, EXCEPT...


I think you hit the nail on the head for everything but winning the appeal.

Here's why.

His original comment was that it was from medication prescribed from either the concussion or shoulder.  The problem is the league must be notified so they can grant a waiver for the player to take said medication.  It seems that did not happen, thus the failed test.

So the only chance of overturning it is by proving he followed protocol, which does not seem to be the case since his argument has now changed to the fact he was on IR thus it shouldn't matter.
 

(03-16-2018, 06:10 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: I get that. However, he's been fined and suspended multiple times for these actions and others. He should knock it off. He can still play physically and still be the enforcer without getting involved in these other things. He just won't. I love that he hates Pittsburgh. I believe he probably hates them as much as we fans do. Just keep it clean. Don't instigate and don't take the bait.

I will concede that I myself am not wired to play LB in the NFL, so what I'm about to write doesn't come from first hand knowledge. But, just watching the game as a fan, it just seems that the guy doesn't know how/when to pick his moments. Sure, he reads and diagnoses the game very fast by NFL LB standards, but the sense of most players on when to press an opponent's buttons and more importantly HOW to do so just seems very lacking with him. I'm sure all the "great ones" played with a near-reckless abandon and knew how to go close to the line without crossing it. And if they ever crossed it, it was few and far between enough that it didn't cause them to have a dirty reputation. VB just doesn't seem to understand how to not get calls going against you by continuing to worsen your reputation. I'm not talking about intra play penalties like some hits that seem egregious due to a slight mistiming etc. It's ridiculous after the whistle boneheaded stuff that all the world can see that essentially paints a picture in the refs' and NFL league officers' minds that are easily avoidable but yet he continues to repeat them. Even last year, when he's still stepping on opponents, aiming kicks from the ground etc., that for someone who claims to be targeted by the NFL, he keeps unnecessarily keeping the bulls eye on himself.

He makes game changing positive plays and if he was smarter would know that he should act in a way that he would only be known for those plays, but unfortunately the discernment doesn't seem to be there and therefore he is now known for being a dirty player. Add in the fact that the suspensions are hurting the team, I wonder if the guy even has done any real soul searching after the umpteenth suspension that he has received. It's easy to chalk it up as the "NFL is out to get me", but you must at least ask yourself "did I do everything in my power to not give the NFL any chances to get me?", before you start pointing blame outward.

(03-16-2018, 06:49 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: On any given play Burfict could make a positive contribution. And on any given play he could make a negative contribution negating his previous positive plays. Historically, usually when the team can least afford it. Marvin let's him get away with his crap and makes excuses enabling more crap. The hit on Brown in the playoff game is a prime example of his stupidity which goes back to his college play.

I can understand where you're coming from with the first part. 

I agree with you on his ability to swing from highs to lows. I know I'm watching games from my own filter, but I come down on the side that he makes more plays on the plus side than the minus column. 

I too find the Brown hit incredibly frustrating, but not from the perspective that Vontaze was vastly outside the realm of what should be expected on a play like that, and my opinion is the game-sealing flags for that play and the incidents that ensued immediately after should have been gift enough, but the league found a way to further advantage the Steelers into the next season too.  (And then did it again for an incredibly bogus ruling from a pre-season game this past year.) 

I don't include those in the negative plays he makes against the team. But even if somebody does, I would contend that at the bare minimum they balance out with his positive production to leave it at neutral. My take is that we have dealt with a lot worse than neutral for a long time at that position. 

I also strongly believe that his positive contributions include helping others perform better with his calls, alignments, shifts, audibles, and general communication on the field, and I'm guessing in practice and the film room too. 

Totally agree that he is definitely not above reproach, and even though I enjoy his play very much, I can imagine a time will come when I will find his contributions to the team to not add up to at least a neutral. Though I'm not there yet, I can appreciate others are well there already.