(04-17-2018, 03:54 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Well as to that... the OL played pretty well in 2015  which isn't a very very long time ago..  but it did take them a long time to recover from 2006   (basically till 2009) where we had a pretty good run game.

Sometimes I think that Elite level play can overcome the stupidity our coaching staff brings to the table. Whitworth was as good a lineman in 2015 as I have seen in a long time. Bodine still stunk it up though.

that Dallas offensive line is probably like WTF is this bullshit. this limp wristed sally is a total fruitcake

(04-18-2018, 12:23 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: From 2009-2015, we had a consistently top 10 (and for 3/4 years, top *3*) oline and that is a fact backed up by numbers, not my opinion.

Sorry- I watched the games and do not agree.

we have never been able to run against a 3-4 defense for a long time.


Lots of ways to measure the so-called "top 10."

also

no doubt pass pro has been decent in some of the years between 2009-2015

But Marvin has always wanted to be a run first team.

We have never had a line that matched Marv's run first philosophy.

How many times have the Steeler lines rolled us over in the second half on both sides?

(04-17-2018, 02:09 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Did he just say they slept through Alexander's meetings?????

Certainly seemed like "shade" to me. Maybe these guys were ready for the change?

(04-18-2018, 01:17 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: I knew someone would bring that up lol.

Run game blocking's importance has diminished, in the pass-happy modern game.

As such, our pass blocking snaps are significantly higher than run blocking and if you average it out, numbers-wise, the pass pro trumped the run blocking.

That's what I meant by the numbers lol.

Have to disagree. We saw the scheme get switched up last year (last 6 games) and the difference with the run game was astounding. 

Mixon before: 2.9 YPC
Mixon after: 5.0 YPC

Gio before: 3.5 YPC
Gio after: 4.7 YPC

PA coordinated the run game and the run game has been consistently abysmal for over a decade. I don't think it was a coincidence that the scheme was switched, we saw more success, then the guy responsible for the old ways was canned.

(04-18-2018, 01:17 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: I knew someone would bring that up lol.

Run game blocking's importance has diminished, in the pass-happy modern game.

As such, our pass blocking snaps are significantly higher than run blocking and if you average it out, numbers-wise, the pass pro trumped the run blocking.

That's what I meant by the numbers lol.

I gotcha.....but....

(04-18-2018, 02:35 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Certainly seemed like "shade" to me. Maybe these guys were ready for the change?


Have to disagree. We saw the scheme get switched up last year (last 6 games) and the difference with the run game was astounding. 

Mixon before: 2.9 YPC
Mixon after: 5.0 YPC

Gio before: 3.5 YPC
Gio after: 4.7 YPC

PA coordinated the run game and the run game has been consistently abysmal for over a decade. I don't think it was a coincidence that the scheme was switched, we saw more success, then the guy responsible for the old ways was canned.

This is what I was driving at.  The run game (aside from Hill's rookie campaign) has been rather lacking even when we had talent up front.  When the talent left, it became abysmal.

(04-18-2018, 02:22 PM)bengals67 Wrote: also

no doubt pass pro has been decent in some of the years between 2009-2015

But Marvin has always wanted to be a run first team.

We have never had a line that matched Marv's run first philosophy.

How many times have the Steeler lines rolled us over in the second half on both sides?

Great point. Over that span, we had average ranks of 9th in rushing attempts and 19th in passing attempts. 

Yet we were never efficient running the ball (average rank of 24th in YPC). 

(04-18-2018, 02:17 PM)bengals67 Wrote: Sorry- I watched the games and do not agree.

we have never been able to run against a 3-4 defense for a long time.


Lots of ways to measure the so-called "top 10."

2009:
- 142 yards and 146 yards against the Ravens (both games, Ced went over 100). Broke their still NFL record, of having consecutive games, not allowing a 100 yard rusher.
- 100 yards even against the Stoolers in our wonderful week 3 game.
- Also gashed other teams, but they aren't considered formidable defenses by all.

2010: Our run blocking was atrocious that year.

2011:
- 109 and 104 against the Stoolers.
- 119 and 105 against the Ravens.
- Like 2009, also gashed a bunch of other 3-4 teams, but many wouldn't consider them formidable defenses.

2012:
- 129 and 142 against the Ravens (with Lawfirm as our RB)
- 146 against the Cowboys
- Same as 2009 and 2011.

2013:
- 127 against the Stoolers
- 165 against the Bills
- 120 and 111 against the Ravens
- And same as the previous years

2014:
- 111 against the Ravens
- 116 to the Stoolers
- Not a great defense, but we had 244 against the Browns in the second meeting.
- Killed a lot of 4-3 teams, that year.

2015:
- 124 against the Chefs
- 112 against the Bills
- 108 against the Broncos
- 145 against the Ravens

It hasn't been super consistent, but we have absolutely run well against 3-4 teams, year in, year out. And these are just 100 yard games; I haven't even looked at games that were under 100, but were run at a good YPC

The Stoolers are the main thing; we don't seem to run well on them, but the Ravens is almost a guaranteed 100 yard rushing game. Ditto with the Browns (and we have had some colossally huge rushing games against them).

When your team gives up less pressures in 4 years, than most teams give up in 1.5-2, yeah, I'd say that's a fairly good measurement .

By all means, guys, I know we had a below average rushing attack on the whole; one would have to be blind not to see that.

But couple the 20th best oline for rushing (because not all of it is on the line, as we have found out) and the 2nd best oline for pass blocking, pro-rate via the snaps and you have top 10 lines.

And yeah, last year was beyond eye-opening.

(04-18-2018, 02:59 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: By all means, guys, I know we had a below average rushing attack on the whole; one would have to be blind not to see that.

But couple the 20th best oline for rushing (because not all of it is on the line, as we have found out) and the 2nd best oline for pass blocking, pro-rate via the snaps and you have top 10 lines.

And yeah, last year was beyond eye-opening.

Yeah, but like Bengal67 pointed out, we've identified as a run-first team. That being the case, I think the run game should count for more points than the passing game. 

Plus we were the 24th best line for rushing, if you go by YPC. 

How much of the "rushing" yards were scrambles by Dalton or trick plays like WR reverses?

How many times has one of our RBs broken 100 yards against teams other than the Browns?

YPC minus QB scrambles is a better measure than gross rushing yards

Whatever you tell me re gross stats, our running game has been average to poor and does not match run first/control the game philosophy.

You need to draft and keep the players on the o line to pay that style.

Sticking with Bodine for four years, as well as the poor centers who followed Richie was not a rational implementation of running philosophy.

Hopefully Lazor and Pollack have IDed the problem with blocking scheme

Plus we have had constant issues with interior line pass blocking. Watch our games - the typical pocket has no nose and is very narrow. This makes if very difficult for the QB to step into their throws. We have seen this issue with Bodine, and before him Cook and especially Ghiacuc put Palmer in the same spot.

If Pollack get it so our line actually forms proper pockets on pass plays it will be a big benefit.

(04-18-2018, 03:52 PM)Joelist Wrote: Plus we have had constant issues with interior line pass blocking. Watch our games - the typical pocket has no nose and is very narrow. This makes if very difficult for the QB to step into their throws. We have seen this issue with Bodine, and before him Cook and especially Ghiacuc put Palmer in the same spot.

If Pollack get it so our line actually forms proper pockets on pass plays it will be a big benefit.

:andy: :andy: :andy:

Knowing Alexander is new o line coach at Dallas, if I have a choice in first round in my fantasy draft, I am not taking Elliott.

They probably hired him because of his pass pro record and assumed running game would not be effected.  Dak had no time to throw last year.

Dallas o line last year was decimated by injuries.

I'm going out on a limb here, I am guessing there were a lot of tense moments behind closed doors a after Lazor took over as OC, between he and PA . It could be, they let PA try to straighten his line out and after seeing it was doomed to fail, they decided to let Lazor call the shots and PA was soon to be out the door...

(04-18-2018, 03:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yeah, but like Bengal67 pointed out, we've identified as a run-first team. That being the case, I think the run game should count for more points than the passing game. 

Plus we were the 24th best line for rushing, if you go by YPC. 

Also.....in 2009.....we ran a lot of unbalanced sets just to get what we did on the ground....and a FB.  That's REALLY shitty when you consider that.

The good ole 80's. After snap, the line of scrimmage was 5 yards into defensive territory.

Munoz, Blados, Remington, Montoya, Reimers, Walter, Kozerski, Sargent.....

Glen, Hernandez, Ragnow, Redmond, Brown. Saddle up!

(04-18-2018, 04:40 PM)Wyche Wrote: Also.....in 2009.....we ran a lot of unbalanced sets just to get what we did on the ground....and a FB.  That's REALLY shitty when you consider that.

That's how I feel whenever someone brings up how magical our 09 run game was. We ran an offense that was meant to pound the ball and we got just a tick above 4 YPC and less than 10 rushing TDs. 

(04-18-2018, 11:53 AM)bengals67 Wrote: Our o line has been average at best for a long time.

the major problem for years- as everyone knows- has been below average performance at center.

Our center play has been average to below average ever since we lost Richie.

Why the Bengals have put up with this for years is hard to fathom as everyone on this board has said over and over.

After losing Whitworth and Zeitler they became WORST IN NFL.  Add to it no more Smith or Bodine. That is 4 of the 5 from 2015 start of 8-0 gone.  We still have Boling, who is good, but we need so much more.  There are guards in round 1 much better than Westerman. I realy don't care if we take a Center and a Tackle or a Center and a Guard first 2 Rounds.  Draft loaded with Quenton Nelson, Orlando Brown, Connor Williams, Frank Ragnow, Mike McGlinchey, Will Hernandez, Isaiah Wynn, Billy Price, Daniels, Brian Allen, and others.  If Bengals choose the best 2 they can get first 2 picks and maybe come back and get a 3rd, I'm all for it.  Here is why.  Bengals are indeed THE WORST O Line in NFL and they need major upgrades just to get to AVERAGE AT BEST.  Bengals O Line no place close to AVERAGE, they are THE WORST.  Everybody in sports knows this.  The good news is there is a rare batch of talent at center, many years there isn't.  Also there are many top flight tackles and guards way above average. Before this month ends, we could have many top new blockers to add to Boling and the Tackle from Buffalo Bills.  If we add 2 in first 2 rounds, Great.  This needs repeated. Bengals right now have THE WORST O Line in NFL.  Now they replaced Whitworth at Left Tackle, but must get a center, that isn't even up for debate. That still leaves them needing another top blocker in first 2 picks.  If they don't go out and get blockers, just trade AJ Green contract because he will never get the ball with Dalton sacked every play. 

The Bengals are not Average, they aren't that good. Their O Line is The Worst, but this draft can address that, IF they address that. 

As for the new coach, I was very impressed with Dallas O Line in 2016 helping to make rookies at RB and QB look so good. Other runners gained yards also. I thought Dallas had best blocking in NFL in 2016. Since we are worst in blocking, I see anything as an improvement. So Dallas gets our coach and we get theirs, and all things considered, why not, we are worst blocking in NFL. Maybe we need a Dallas Cowboy type line to take on Steelers and Ravens as when Forrest Gregg built us a Vince Lombardi Green Bay Packers type O Line that took us to 2 Super Bowls. We also had some success with that Dallas coach named Zimmer. I don't think adding some Dallas Cowboy football is a bad thing at all.

Right now we have our LT and LG (Cordy Glenn and Clint Boling). We still need the other three positions, and for two of them (C and RT) we don't even have a reasonable prospective starter. So we have to get our starters at RT and C in this draft. That's why I liked the notion of McGlinchey - Ragnow.