(09-07-2015, 12:37 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually you are the one who has been incredibly lazy in your research.

Gronk actually played 7 games in 2013.  In those seven games Brady had a passer rating of 90+ in 5 of them.  He averaged 315 yards per game and posted a 95.8 passer rating.

In the 9 games that Gronk missed Brady only had 2 games with a passer rating over 90.  He averaged 238 passing yards and posted an 80.3 passer rating.  

Andy has never had a rating that low even counting his rookie season, so that is why I said he looked worse than Dalton.

Gronk was never healthy that season. I remember, because I was lucky enough to have him torpedo my fantasy team.  One of those 7 games he didn't even start.  (Do you now how hindered he had to be to not warrant a start over Michael Notgoingtoworkhereanymore?  Another one of those 7 games he obviously didn't finish, as he was hurt.  So you're down to 5.  I think at one point he was on snap counts when he returned.  All told, the guy was probably lucky to play 3-4 full games at 75-90%.

For all intents and purposes he didn't have Gronk that season.  Not the one that we usually know.  The fact of the matter is he was down more than just that in comparison to both what he was used to and what resembles a legitimate table of weapons.  They managed to win 12 games and make it to one game within the Superbowl.  

(09-07-2015, 12:50 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Gronk was never healthy that season. I remember, because I was lucky enough to have him torpedo my fantasy team.  One of those 7 games he didn't even start.  (Do you now how hindered he had to be to not warrant a start over Michael Notgoingtoworkhereanymore?  Another one of those 7 games he obviously didn't finish, as he was hurt.  So you're down to 5.  I think at one point he was on snap counts when he returned.  All told, the guy was probably lucky to play 3-4 full games at 75-90%.

For all intents and purposes he didn't have Gronk that season.  Not the one that we usually know.  The fact of the matter is he was down more than just that in comparison to both what he was used to and what resembles a legitimate table of weapons.  They managed to win 12 games and make it to one game within the Superbowl.  

39 catches for 592 yards is pretty impressive for a guy playing 3-4 full games at 75-90%.  That projects to over 200 receptions for a full season at 100%.

But, yeah, I am sure it was just an amazing coincidence that Brady's passer rating was almost 20% higher when Gronk was playing and his yardage went up by 33%.

(09-07-2015, 12:58 AM)fredtoast Wrote: 39 catches for 592 yards is pretty impressive for a guy playing 3-4 full games at 75-90%.  That projects to over 200 receptions for a full season at 100%.

But, yeah, I am sure it was just an amazing coincidence that Brady's passer rating was almost 20% higher when Gronk was playing and his yardage went up by 33%.

Well, that was also 7 games along in development for Thompkins and Dobson, along with newly starting Julius Edelman.  I think anyone would agree that either previously unused or untested players, are going to improve their chemistry with their QB as the season progresses.  He also got Amendola back somewhere in that stretch as well.

No doubt Gronk helped.  Even if he wasn't completely healthy.  Brady was dying for weapons that season.  That much is evidenced by those numbers you just posted.  That he relied on a banged up Gronk that he much in that short of time.  The projections you were so kind to provide only illustrate that point, as Gronk has never seen game to game numbers like that since.  It's because, like I said earlier, that there was lot more to the equation than him simply being short Gronk. Those numbers do more to prove that he was short weapons than they do to prove that Gronk was 100%.

Regardless, you glossed over the rest of my initial post. Even the part I specifically called for you to address.  Define "looked worse", explain looked worse than when, and remind us all of why exactly you feel this discussion is at all relevant.

Any sane person would view the logic "Our QB's career best is slightly better than Tom Brady playing with a bunch of nobodies" as meaning very little in trying to figure out his worth, both in relation to his peers and in his ability to lead us to a title.  In fact, I think reaching for statistics like this only shows how desperate some are and just hard a reach it is too make (that Dalton is good enough).  When you're having discussions like this then your QB situation is probably more than likely leaving much to be desired.

It's like the kid everyone knew who would hope some rather meaningless accomplishment and hold it up as much greater than what it really was.  "I hit a ball against Tommy Dinklelicker that went 300 feet!"  - Lame kid.  "Yeah, it was foul.  And he stuck you out on the next pitch, like he did the other 50 times you faced him  Plus, he was 5 years younger.- Kids friends.

Saying Dalton was as good as Brady playing with Thompkins, Dobson and Gronk for 7 games does little to inspire confidence for me.  Call me crazy...

I would wait for some productivity from AJ, especially with Eifert and Jones back. Let's see how he does with them, as I am sure this will probably effect the deal in someway.

(09-07-2015, 01:24 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Regardless, you glossed over the rest of my initial post. Even the part I specifically called for you to address.  Define "looked worse", explain looked worse than when, and remind us all of why exactly you feel this discussion is at all relevant.

I never glossed over anything.  I clearly pointed out that without Gronk in 2013 Bradyposted a passer rating (80.3) worse than any of Dalton's seasons.

But the biggest problem here is your obsession with Dalton.  My original point was not about Dalton.  It was about the fact that people are a little mistaken when they claim that you don't need a great receiver to be a great team.  When they say this they usually just consider the WRs and ignore the fact that soem TEs today are the #1 receiving thyreat for some teams.

(09-07-2015, 01:42 AM)fredtoast Wrote: But the biggest problem here is your obsession with Dalton.  My original point was not about Dalton.  It was about the fact that people are a little mistaken when they claim that you don't need a great receiver to be a great team.  When they say this they usually just consider the WRs and ignore the fact that soem TEs today are the #1 receiving thyreat for some teams.

If that was your only point then my apologies.  However, I've seen you reference that same "fact" numerous times when the discussion is either about QB play or dealing with injury.  I think at times you can intentionally leave certain facts out and your succinctness can come with an agenda.

(09-07-2015, 02:01 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: If that was your only point then my apologies.  However, I've seen you reference that same "fact" numerous times when the discussion is either about QB play or dealing with injury.  I think at times you can intentionally leave certain facts out and your succinctness can come with an agenda.

I do bring out that fact whenever someone says "Good QBs don't need good receivers.  They make whoever they have look great."

And I will continue to do that.

(08-31-2015, 01:41 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote:

Sweet jacket. Probably the only one he owns.

I predict it will be tomorrow since its the FO day usually.

Stay tuned on all of this. I can't break news here ... but I wouldn't make any predictions on anything. We wrote today that the team has already gone past the point it usually has regarding getting these deals done (the Monday of Week 1 has been the latest day in recent vintage).

It BETTER happen this week. I realize that he's said he's happy and not concerned about it. But it would look really bad if AJ didn't get extended this year. Especially considering his peers did. We don't want him disgruntled, but then again he might play better for a new contract

Oh God why do I read anything. It just turns into a Fred or West or whoever else arguement for 3 pages.

(09-08-2015, 09:34 AM)Captain Happy Pants Wrote: It BETTER happen this week.  I realize that he's said he's happy and not concerned about it.  But it would look really bad if AJ didn't get extended this year.  Especially considering his peers did.  We don't want him disgruntled, but then again he might play better for a new contract

I don't think he's worried about it because he knows he'll be taken care of, but I think it would help him play better if we got it done BEFORE the season just so he's even happier.

(09-08-2015, 12:54 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I don't think he's worried about it because he knows he'll be taken care of, but I think it would help him play better if we got it done BEFORE the season just so he's even happier.

So you think they take care of him with a 70 million dollar deal even if he has a Willis McGahee type of knee injury in the middle of the season?

How could he not be a little worried?  He's got 70 million dollars on the line.  Almost FOUR TIMES what he's made at this point in his career.

(09-08-2015, 02:15 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: So you think they take care of him with a 70 million dollar deal even if he has a Willis McGahee type of knee injury in the middle of the season?

How could he not be a little worried?  He's got 70 million dollars on the line.  Almost FOUR TIMES what he's made at this point in his career.

This is reality and why the Bengals hold the hammer in these types of contract discussions. AJ is at risk as you mentioned, what fans forget is the team is on the injury hook once these long term guaranteed deals are signed. Look no further than Pita of the Ravens and is shows the team paying a player a lot of money they could paying someone else to contribute now.

Let's hope we get AJ signed.

Lookin less and less likely that this is gonna happen anytume soon...

Not happening. Not upset we couldn't get Green done. Shocked we got nobody done. Puts a lot of pressure on next offseason. Seems as though it's pretty much the end of an era. Looking at a rebuilt roster in 2016. If not they would have at least re-singed a couple soon to be free agents. (Iloka, Adam J., Whit, MJ). They didn't. Which means this season is it with this foundation likely even if we win a playoff game.

(09-09-2015, 12:23 PM)jj22 Wrote: Not happening. Not upset we couldn't get Green done. Shocked we got nobody done. Puts a lot of pressure on next offseason. Seems as though it's pretty much the end of an era. Looking at a rebuilt roster in 2016. If not they would have at least re-singed a couple soon to be free agents. (Iloka, Adam J., Whit, MJ). They didn't. Which means this season is it with this foundation likely even if we win a playoff game.

I hope you're wrong. We still have a day or two left.

(09-09-2015, 03:24 PM)Captain Happy Pants Wrote: I hope you're wrong.  We still have a day or two left.

Damn M. Brown.

It aint happening before the season, which is pretty much bs. How can you not pay a guy who you've been claiming you've been saving for 4 years? That was always the reason some money was held back in previous years, for AJ and Andy.

All the other teams got their respective deals done with their comparable receivers. And the one team that has been budgeting for it years in advance lets their guy go into the season with no guaranteed money beyond this season. Classy.

Oh, and AJ would be nuts not to want to sign early if offered a competitive deal. The market is set and there is ton of risk in waiting. All signs point to this being on the Bengals not offering an equal deal.

More than anything I hate being lied to. This team has lied to their fans about saving for this upcoming contract. They have no urgency to spend the money that they've pocketed from previous rollover. They'll forever kick the can down the road, all the while referencing expiring rookie deals and injury settlements. Way to go, assholes. :angry: