(08-30-2018, 10:32 AM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: The only thing that chaps me about the Whit/Zeitler stuff was that they didn't just tag Whit. If a one year deal was the goal, would a tag not have been ideal? 

not when the goal was to reduce his salary.

(08-30-2018, 10:27 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Bengals wanted to reduce his playing time and salary to get the younger OTs up and running and only were offering a 1 year deal..

So whit took the multi year where he was gonna be a starter full time.  at least it was my take

So basically, Paul Alexander ran Whit off so he could demonstrate his brilliance in assessing young talent?   Good luck, Cowboys. 

(08-30-2018, 10:31 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Well yeah.... We drafted a 1st and 2nd round OT back to back you want them boys to play.   But so far it looks like we missed on both potentially at least for their draft status.

But when glenn went out last week Obg didn't look horrible at LT.. Maybe hes starting to turn a corner.  IDK...

I always hope these guys get better while they are still on the roster.  And I love whitworth dude was great....  But when you have young guys waiting to go. How long to you keep playing someone who is beyond what the average retirement age is for his position.   I know whit stayed in great shape but we all know every year we age things take longer to heal.....

It was a gamble they lost.

Yeah, let's not forget that Whit played his entire career for Paul Alexander, too (and PA still seemed to have a contract for life going into 2017).  Looking at a contract with the Rams versus more Marivn, more PA, and Ken Zampese (and remember how shocked we were Zampese didn't get years to ruin the offense, too).  Geez that looks like the kind of situation you wouldn't take less to stick with.

I'd wager he had some loyalty to Cincy, but when you get more to play somewhere that isn't going to be staffed by a bunch of third-rate, lifetime-tenured bums you take it.  

(08-30-2018, 09:25 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Mark this day in message board history. Fredtoast giving SHRacerX rep. Covered every point I was going to make

-Due to his age Whit was a damned-if-you-do damned-if-you-don't type deal.

-Zeitler was overpaid (although he was much better than "very average)

-With so many D-linemen on rookie deals we could sign both Atkins and Dunlap with front loaded deals that don't blow up the cap down the road.

I am taking this as a sign that THIS is the year the Bengals will win it all....either that, or the world is clearly ending

Anyone remember Witt daring the team to draft his replacement? I do and thought it was the wrong move on his part as well as the team. They did, he left and the replacements haven't quite worked out. Wars of words seldom work in our favor .
The bottom line is he's no longer a Bengal. 
Turns out he was right, but unfortunately we don't have the luxury of being able to see into the future quite as clearly as we would like. 
Once players leave I don't usually want to hear anything about them. I'm not a Rams fan and no longer a Witt fan as a result . Crying about it wont fix the problem and he's probably never coming back. 
Now , going forward we really don't know how Ogbuihi and Fisher will do . This is their first season with a new line coach . Can he teach them well enough to be worth the investment? Only time will tell. 
Ogbuihi is a bit of a unique situation. He didn't play at all his first season due to injury, got tossed in the frying pan the next and failed coming off the injury. Last year jumped out of the pan into the fire and wasn't so great ,but  still had PA as his coach and finally this year hasn't been a huge festering sore like he has been, but has a completely different coach seemingly willing to teach him how to play his position(s)..
It's been a long time coming, but I do feel slightly more confident in his abilities than years past .

(08-30-2018, 10:58 AM)SHRacerX Wrote:

I am taking this as a sign that THIS is the year the Bengals will win it all....either that, or the world is clearly ending

It's the end of the world as we know it. .Luckily for us Mike Brown doesn't have nuclear weapons, just a Chernobyl brain .  

the first two preseason games Ogbuehi was worse than his usual self. Which is saying something because he’s the softest, weakest clueless tackle I’ve seen in a Bengals uniform. He did have a better game last week but come on how many times is he gonna fool us. I’m the Dallas game every play he was getting beat every which way. The ship has sailed on this guy. If the pick was Geno /Dunlap or whit/Zeitler I think most would say Geno Dunlap

(08-30-2018, 09:54 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Andrew Whitworth made Andrew Whitworth a very rich man.  

No doubt Whit got paid because of his talents and could have played anywhere, but the Brown Family signed his checks. He showed no loyalty, and has no legacy here, or anywhere now.... hope it was worth it to him. 

I wish we had Geno, Dunlop and Whit in that order. I think that could have happened.

But if we had to lose one of those three, Whit was the one to lose.

Z was seriously overpaid by the Browns.

We would be in great shape right now if Og and Fisher were playing at their draft level. That is the real issue.

If there is any consolation, we get to see Zeitler twice this season again.

(08-30-2018, 11:24 AM)Sled21 Wrote: No doubt Whit got paid because of his talents and could have played anywhere, but the Brown Family signed his checks. He showed no loyalty, and has no legacy here, or anywhere now.... hope it was worth it to him. 

Yes, I'm sure being part of the top scoring offense in the NFL last year was a real drag for him and he spent most of the time in LA wishing he were back here being coached on his ketchup-dispensing techniques by PA and waiting to be inducted into that ring of honor Mike Brown refuses to start.

Anywho, the real takeaway here is that you can play very well for the Bengals for a decade and have no legacy in Cincy.

And this is part of the Piano Man legacy we are still dealing with. Piano Man was the one who insisted on Ogbuehi - don’t know if he insisted on Fisher too.

(08-30-2018, 11:35 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Yes, I'm sure being part of the top scoring offense in the NFL last year was a real drag for him and he spent most of the time in LA wishing he were back here being coached on his ketchup-dispensing techniques by PA and waiting to be inducted into that ring of honor Mike Brown refuses to start.

Anywho, the real takeaway here is that you can play very well for the Bengals for a decade and have no legacy in Cincy.

Living in LA is ruff I tell ya. It was 82 degrees yesterday but fortunately the breeze from the ocean cooled it down some. And being on one of the best teams who went all out in free agency has got to be a bummer for big Whit. Sometimes the grass isn’t always greener.

(08-30-2018, 08:23 AM)Sled21 Wrote: First, rising salaries are not destroying the game. They are ridiculous, but while salaries go up, so does the cap. Basically, it just means everything is more expensive for the fans. Second, Whit was older than dirt, when it comes to O-linemen. Can we get over the decision not to offer him a 3 year stupid deal. They offered him a very good one year deal, which he turned down. Yes, he proved he could still play, but at the time all the odds were against that. Thirdly, what the Factory of Sadness paid Zeitler was insane for what he brought. Yes, he was good, but he was too expensive. The problems the Bengals have do not come from not resigning those players..... they come from not drafting or trading for quality replacements.

That is mostly true. However, teams are all now 'over paying' for quality OL so we should have ponied up. We may have been able to sign Zeitler for less the Clowns paid, we may never know. Could we have signed Zet and Whit and Dunlap and Atkins. For sure. The Rams just cleared up $7M in cap space by redoing deals for Whit and Robert Woods, MOST teams do this all the time. Had we signed Whit and Zeitler we would likely not have over paid for Dre, MJ, Rey and Hewitt. There are always options. But by NOT re-signing Whit/Zeit and KNOWING that you had no good replacements was an absolute fail of epic proportions. 

There are many ways to create cap room, this team just never or rarely utilizes them. 

Misses on Og and Fisher hurt this team more than what some fans realize. It was logical to let Whit go but it was a tough call because his performance was steady and more importantly his attitude and leadership was a glue. Big Z was slightly above average and I agree with the front office on that one.

I think the Bengals could have fixed the offensive line issues, at least in part, by going a different route this past draft. I understand Hubbard, but Jefferson and Walton over offensive line personnel is baffling.

Lots of revisionist history going on here.

-If PA or Marvin had been the problem Whit would have been gone a long time ago.

-The Rams team he went to looked like a dumpster fire.  Not one single person was predicting they would have a break out season. The 2016 Rams were dead last in offense and their QB of the future, Goff, looked like a steaming pile of crap.  His 63.6 passer was the lowest by a starting QB in the previous 5 years.  Plus they had a rookie head coach who had not proven anything.

Whit's decision to sign with the Rams was about one thing......Business.

He was the model player while he was here so there is no way anyone should have any hard feelings against him.  Football is his job and he got offered a better deal to go someplace else.  It is as simple as that.

(08-30-2018, 01:34 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I think the Bengals could have fixed the offensive line issues, at least in part, by going a different route this past draft.   I understand Hubbard, but Jefferson and Walton over offensive line personnel is baffling.

You can't draft them if they are not there. After the first round, there were few linemen that were worth a crap to draft, even if we wanted to... Next year is a much better crop....

(08-30-2018, 01:24 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: Had we signed Whit and Zeitler we would likely not have over paid for Dre, MJ, Rey and Hewitt.

There are always options. But by NOT re-signing Whit/Zeit and KNOWING that you had no good replacements was an absolute fail of epic proportions. 

There are many ways to create cap room, this team just never or rarely utilizes them. 

1.  No way Whit and Zeitler effected contracts signed by MJ, Rey, and Vincent that were signed years earlier.

2.  Og was coming off a rookie season where he missed all of training camp due to injury, and Fisher looked promising as a rookie.  Noe way you can say the KNEW they had no good replacements.

3.  There is no way to create cap room other than to cut players or take money away from guys who are already here.  Also a team can not make a player re-structure a deal that is in place, and restructuring a deal does not solve the problem.  All it does is push it down the road.

(08-30-2018, 12:40 PM)Joelist Wrote: And this is part of the Piano Man legacy we are still dealing with. Piano Man was the one who insisted on Ogbuehi - don’t know if he insisted on Fisher too.

Is the Piano man not the same one who drafted Whit and Z ?? The draft is a crap shoot at best., Some times you win sometimes you lose. I'll bet a dollar to a doughnut that he didn't make the decision to let them walk. That was made by MB's wallet.

(08-30-2018, 02:24 AM)Shady Wrote: I've never put any effort into understanding the cap, and I don't keep tabs on how much $$$ the Bengals organization is under the cap, but I was just wondering about something.

Had we paid Whit and Zeitler the money needed to keep them, would we have been able to extend Geno and Carlos?

I kind of doubt it. Does anybody here have a more definitive answer?

If we couldn't have afforded to keep all 4, which 2 would you have preferred? I'd go with Carlos and Geno. Defense wins championships.

BTW, I hate how the rising salaries are destroying the game. If you build a good-great team, you'll never be able to afford to keep them together for very long.

I'll comment on your last part to this. I'm all for the NFL salary cap and baseball needs one.  In the NFL the TV revenue sharing and salary cap makes it more even for smaller market teams such as Cincinnati to compete.  The Commissioner back in 1960's sold NFL on the idea that it would be better for NFL if it wasn't mismatches such as Harlem Globetrotters beating the Washington Generals every game. The NFL is set up to where Cincinnati has a chance.  However in baseball it is big money NY Yankees and then Boston, LA and such.  Baseball is just awful this way. Teams like Reds can't afford to pay what Yankees pay and no salary cap. So NFL is great and MLB is lousy in terms of Cincinnati.  If you want to talk about forced to get rid of good players, look at last place Reds every year and all the salaries they have had to unload. MLB is just shameful this way. The 1994 strike really ruined MLB for cities like Cincy. The NFL is much nicer to Bengals.