Paul Daugherty wrote an interesting article concerning the 'legacy' of this current Bengals team and how this season will define them. More specifically, he looks at the legacies of Marvin, Andy and Mike...

Bengals embark upon legacy season

So, what do you guys think? IMO, he summed up the expectations for this season with one question..."If not now, when?"

(09-10-2015, 11:57 AM)Bengalholic Wrote: So, what do you guys think? IMO, he summed up the expectations for this season with one question..."If not now, when?"

If your a homer, next year cause that will REALLY be the year they do it!!!

At this point I really don't have the confidence that the Bengals will do it with Marvin and Andy on the team. As a fan you get your hopes up with one scenario or another that this is the season it will come together and it always falls short in one way or another. Im going into this season enjoying the wins we have and not expecting anything more from them. Certainly not a playoff win. Those guys have a track record on that and its not going to magically change. 

Good article. Marv may not be the best X's and O's HC, but the way he develops his players as men is what I really admire/respect about him. Little to no incidents involving our players anymore. He lets it be known that the players should give back to the community and city, as he does himself. He really cares about his players. It seems like the players really care about him, too.

Marv is an excellent, all-around person. Even though it pisses me off to no end with some of the circumstances last 5-6 years (PO & primetime woes) , the way he handles his business off the field should really deserve more praise then he gets. Sometimes we need a little perspective to really judge how someone is doing.

(09-10-2015, 12:18 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Good article. Marv may not be the best X's and O's HC, but the way he develops his players as men is what I really admire/respect about him. Little to no incidents involving our players anymore. He lets it be known that the players should give back to the community and city, as he does himself. He really cares about his players. It seems like the players really care about him, too.

Marv is an excellent, all-around person. Even though it pisses me off to no end with some of the circumstances last 5-6 years (PO & primetime woes) , the way he handles his business off the field should really deserve more praise then he gets. Sometimes we need a little perspective to really judge how someone is doing.

Very good post. Marvin has some really great qualities as well as some pretty poor ones as a head coach but his character is undeniably great!

I really don't know why this year would be any more of a "legacy" year than last. At least as far as the thinking that "this has to be the year or else...".

After Andy and AJ's first season all I heard was that, with a year of seasoning and a full off-season under the belts, year 2 was to be the year. This was the year to expect big things from Marvin and Co. For whatever reason it wasn't. People gave them another year.

In year 3 all I heard was that, with yet another season of experience AND added weapons in Bernard and Eifert, this was truly the year it was going to happen. This was the year in rebuild 2.0 that you could either demand or expect more from Marvin and his merry men. For whatever reason it wasn't. People gave them another year.

Which brings us to last year. Now this, this had to be the year. No more excuses. Mike, Marvin, Andy, AJ, etc. They had to win this year. This was year 4. There was no youth excuses any longer. Surely this was to be the year. For whatever reason it wasn't. People gave them another year. That "no excuses" mantra turned into a ton of excuses.

And here we are now. Why does this year have to be the year any more than any of the last 3? Year, 2, 3, and 4 of Reboot 2.0 were all, in differing degrees, "have to get it done" years. Yet they weren't. And our front office gave and bought into another year. Many of our fans did, or do, the same. So why exactly should we expect any different if they fall short this year? What greater demands are being put on the team by ownership in year 5/year 25. Why now, after all this time, should we think there is any more urgency than before?

I hear many people talk about upcoming free agency. That is the reason it has to be done. I think the team crying poor may have fooled some into believing that these upcoming contracts are greater than what they are. They will, if they want to, to be able to keep the bulk of this team intact. People rattle off potential deals and dollars amounts as if we're adding them to our totals now. As if money doesn't come off the books first, before a player hits free agency.

This team has a projected 60 million dollars in available money under the cap for next season. Names like Hall and Jones are probably not going to be resigned. We may only need to keep one of the duo that is Marvin Jones and Muhamed Sanu. Andrew Whitworth will most likely make less next year (cap wise) than he did this year. And there is a possibility that they part ways with the Noodle, or ask him to restructure. Regardless, the idea that this team has to blow up this experiment because of lack of money simply isn't true. So if that's your reasoning, on why this is a legacy year, then I don't buy it.

If this team falls short I would love the idea of the experiment ending. Kick Giggles to the curb. Shake up the staff. Be open to personnel and approach changes. That would be great. But I'm not going to be at all shocked if next year at this time we're doing the same thing we've been doing... "This has to be the year for this bunch." Until Mike makes no changes and we're saying things the following year.

This particular group's legacy has already been defined, and that is making the playoffs and losing first round. Whether we as Bengals fans like that or not, it is factual and how the rest of the league/media views us. Four years of the same is pretty defining in my eyes. Of course, every season is a chance to redefine that mold and this one is no different. But every year they don't exceed past successes is another that the legacy of almost good enough gets cemented deeper into the minds of everyone following this team.

Excellent find.

One of the statements that stood out to me was: "...before the whole thing is blown to free agent smithereens."

If that's the team's plan, which I'm not sure it is, why didn't we spend our first two picks in the draft on players who will help us this year? Circumstances just beg the question.

The legacies for Marvin Lewis and Andy Dalton sure are wrapped up in this year. Laying complete rotten eggs in games this year isn't going to fly, regardless of who gets injured or how good the other teams turn out to be.

Mike Brown's legacy was written more than a decade ago when he nose dived the franchise and kept it at the bottom for 15 years. Bringing it part way back up just ain't good enough. Even a SB isn't good enough. Really, if the guy had any sense of honor for his father, he'd change his last name to Smith and move to Alaska and hide in a cabin where the roads freeze over in the winter.

(09-10-2015, 12:18 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Good article. Marv may not be the best X's and O's HC, but the way he develops his players as men is what I really admire/respect about him. Little to no incidents involving our players anymore. He lets it be known that the players should give back to the community and city, as he does himself. He really cares about his players. It seems like the players really care about him, too.

Marv is an excellent, all-around person. Even though it pisses me off to no end with some of the circumstances last 5-6 years (PO & primetime woes) , the way he handles his business off the field should really deserve more praise then he gets. Sometimes we need a little perspective to really judge how someone is doing.

Which is why I really was hoping they would move him to GM and hire Zimmer as Head Coach....

(09-10-2015, 11:57 AM)Bengalholic Wrote: Paul Daugherty wrote an interesting article concerning the 'legacy' of this current Bengals team and how this season will define them. More specifically, he looks at the legacies of Marvin, Andy and Mike...

Bengals embark upon legacy season

So, what do you guys think? IMO, he summed up the expectations for this season with one question..."If not now, when?"

i believe this team has the talent to win it all... at all positions..

But will they is the question.

Might all come down to how healthy we are come week 1 of the postseason.

But everyone writting us off due to our schedule would returning to the playoffs facing the 2nd hardest schedule silence any critics probly not. but the better the competition along the way the better prepared for the post season they should be.

Only thing we are truely missing right now is our defensive General.

I've seen a few like Daugherty and Dehner talk about 30 free agents next year, as if the team is going to be blown up and this is their last shot. It's total bologna. According to Spotrac, here is a list of 21 players due to hit FA next year (starters in bold):

AJ Green- He'll get signed. If not he'll get tagged. He isn't going anywhere.
Leon Hall- It's time to move on. He's making 9 million this year, so it'll actually be good for the team to have him off the books.
Andre Smith- They pretty much drafted his replacement already.
Andrew Whitworth- Same here, but he could be retained at a lesser rate than he currently makes.
Reggie Nelson- He'll turn 33 early in the 2016 season. That's ancient for a safety. He's making 4.8 million this year. Could be had at a lesser rate.
George Iloka- Making 1.5 million this year, he's due for a raise.
Pacman Jones- Making 2.5 million this year. I don't see him getting much more on the open market with his age and history.
Marvin Jones- He hasn't done anything that will make him hard to retain. 
Mo Sanu- Same here. We'll keep at least 1 out of Jones and Sanu.
Pat Sims- I like him, but he's depth. Very replaceable.
Brandon Thompson- Same here. 
Wallace Gilberry- He's had a good run here, but he'll turn 31 in December.
Vinny Rey- Meh.
Emmanuel Lamur- See ya.
Chris Carter- No matter what he does this year, he should be easy to retain.
Eric Winston- See ya.
Brandon Tate- See ya.
Jayson Dimanche- Bottom of the roster type.
Chris Lewis-Harris- Same here.
Greg Little- And here.
TJ Johnson- Here as well.

We have 8 current starters due to hit FA. Of those, 4 are over 30 and need replaced soon anyway. We'll be able to retain most of the players the FO wants to keep. Some at a lesser rate. IMO, AJ Green and Iloka should be the main priorities. They should also try to keep Pacman, Whit and either Sanu or MLJ around. Other than that, I'm not too concerned about the rest of these players. I'm sure it'll shake out just fine.

(09-10-2015, 02:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I've seen a few like Daugherty and Dehner talk about 30 free agents next year, as if the team is going to be blown up and this is their last shot. It's total bologna. According to Spotrac, here is a list of 21 players due to hit FA next year (starters in bold):

AJ Green- He'll get signed. If not he'll get tagged. He isn't going anywhere.
Leon Hall- It's time to move on. He's making 9 million this year, so it'll actually be good for the team to have him off the books.
Andre Smith- They pretty much drafted his replacement already.
Andrew Whitworth- Same here, but he could be retained at a lesser rate than he currently makes.
Reggie Nelson- He'll turn 33 early in the 2016 season. That's ancient for a safety. He's making 4.8 million this year. Could be had at a lesser rate.
George Iloka- Making 1.5 million this year, he's due for a raise.
Pacman Jones- Making 2.5 million this year. I don't see him getting much more on the open market with his age and history.
Marvin Jones- He hasn't done anything that will make him hard to retain. 
Mo Sanu- Same here. We'll keep at least 1 out of Jones and Sanu.
Pat Sims- I like him, but he's depth. Very replaceable.
Brandon Thompson- Same here. 
Wallace Gilberry- He's had a good run here, but he'll turn 31 in December.
Vinny Rey- Meh.
Emmanuel Lamur- See ya.
Chris Carter- No matter what he does this year, he should be easy to retain.
Eric Winston- See ya.
Brandon Tate- See ya.
Jayson Dimanche- Bottom of the roster type.
Chris Lewis-Harris- Same here.
Greg Little- And here.
TJ Johnson- Here as well.

We have 8 current starters due to hit FA. Of those, 4 are over 30 and need replaced soon anyway. We'll be able to retain most of the players the FO wants to keep. Some at a lesser rate. IMO, AJ Green and Iloka should be the main priorities. They should also try to keep Pacman, Whit and either Sanu or MLJ around. Other than that, I'm not too concerned about the rest of these players. I'm sure it'll shake out just fine.

Agreed especially considering that the Bengals #1 priority is to resign thier own players every year.

(09-10-2015, 02:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I've seen a few like Daugherty and Dehner talk about 30 free agents next year, as if the team is going to be blown up and this is their last shot. It's total bologna. According to Spotrac, here is a list of 21 players due to hit FA next year (starters in bold):

AJ Green- He'll get signed. If not he'll get tagged. He isn't going anywhere.
Leon Hall- It's time to move on. He's making 9 million this year, so it'll actually be good for the team to have him off the books.
Andre Smith- They pretty much drafted his replacement already.
Andrew Whitworth- Same here, but he could be retained at a lesser rate than he currently makes.
Reggie Nelson- He'll turn 33 early in the 2016 season. That's ancient for a safety. He's making 4.8 million this year. Could be had at a lesser rate.
George Iloka- Making 1.5 million this year, he's due for a raise.
Pacman Jones- Making 2.5 million this year. I don't see him getting much more on the open market with his age and history.
Marvin Jones- He hasn't done anything that will make him hard to retain. 
Mo Sanu- Same here. We'll keep at least 1 out of Jones and Sanu.
Pat Sims- I like him, but he's depth. Very replaceable.
Brandon Thompson- Same here. 
Wallace Gilberry- He's had a good run here, but he'll turn 31 in December.
Vinny Rey- Meh.
Emmanuel Lamur- See ya.
Chris Carter- No matter what he does this year, he should be easy to retain.
Eric Winston- See ya.
Brandon Tate- See ya.
Jayson Dimanche- Bottom of the roster type.
Chris Lewis-Harris- Same here.
Greg Little- And here.
TJ Johnson- Here as well.

We have 8 current starters due to hit FA. Of those, 4 are over 30 and need replaced soon anyway. We'll be able to retain most of the players the FO wants to keep. Some at a lesser rate. IMO, AJ Green and Iloka should be the main priorities. They should also try to keep Pacman, Whit and either Sanu or MLJ around. Other than that, I'm not too concerned about the rest of these players. I'm sure it'll shake out just fine.

Andre is all but gone. (Ogbuehi)
So is Gilberry. (Hardison is basically his replacement)
Nelson could be on the outs (Smith or Shaw)
Hall could be brought back cheap enough, other wise Dennard takes his spot. 
Sims is a nice piece but NT needs to be a top draft priority.
Vinny Rey could be replaced by Roach in 2016. Dawson, Burfict, Maualuga probably the starters. Flowers could be in the running for the NLB same with Shawn Williams. 

If Carter has a good year, he's the only non-starter who is a must keep. 

"For lots of you, Brown could lord over 10 Super Bowl champions, and he'd still be the guy who stole your wallet. If there were 10 rings behind glass at PBS, you'd lament the public money spent on the trophy case. Brown can't win, even if he does."




This is so true.

(09-10-2015, 02:29 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Andre is all but gone. (Ogbuehi)
So is Gilberry. (Hardison is basically his replacement)
Nelson could be on the outs (Smith or Shaw)
Hall could be brought back cheap enough, other wise Dennard takes his spot. 
Sims is a nice piece but NT needs to be a top draft priority.
Vinny Rey could be replaced by Roach in 2016. Dawson, Burfict, Maualuga probably the starters. Flowers could be in the running for the NLB same with Shawn Williams. 

If Carter has a good year, he's the only non-starter who is a must keep. 

Agreed. No matter what happens, the core of this team is locked up for awhile. That includes Dalton, Jeremy Hill, Eifert, Boling, Ogbuehi, Fisher, Gio, Atkins, Dunlap, Burfict, DreKirk, Dennard, etc. Green is controllable even if a contract doesn't get done right away. 

The FO has some work to do, but this team isn't going to need a rebuild anytime soon. Even in a nightmare scenario where the Bengals have a losing season, they could just bring in a new HC and look at QB's in next year's draft. It would be more like a re-boot than a total rebuild. A new HC would love to take over a team like this.

I think this is a legacy defining season. Be it due to success or disappointment this team will look very different next season. A bad season could see Dalton's job up in the air and some of our bigger players on the end of their contracts may well want out.

Anything less than the AFC Championship game should be a disappointment for this team really.

(09-10-2015, 12:42 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I really don't know why this year would be any more of a "legacy" year than last.  At least as far as the thinking that "this has to be the year or else...".

[INSERT VALID AND EXCELLENT POINTS ABOUT YEARS 1-3]

Which brings us to last year.  Now this, this had to be the year.  No more excuses.  Mike, Marvin, Andy, AJ, etc.  They had to win this year.  This was year 4.  There was no youth excuses any longer.  Surely this was to be the year.  For whatever reason it wasn't.  People gave them another year.  That "no excuses" mantra turned into a ton of excuses.

And here we are now.  Why does this year have to be the year any more than any of the last 3?  Year, 2, 3, and 4 of Reboot 2.0 were all, in differing degrees, "have to get it done" years.  Yet they weren't.  And our front office gave and bought into another year.  Many of our fans did, or do, the same.  So why exactly should we expect any different if they fall short this year?  What greater demands are being put on the team by ownership in year 5/year 25.  Why now, after all this time, should we think there is any more urgency than before?

If this team falls short I would love the idea of the experiment ending.  Kick Giggles to the curb.  Shake up the staff.  Be open to personnel and approach changes.  That would be great.  But I'm not going to be at all shocked if next year at this time we're doing the same thing we've been doing...  "This has to be the year for this bunch."  Until Mike makes no changes and we're saying things the following year.

I disagree with you heavily here. Last year WOULD have been the year. But when your #2 and #3 receivers (Marvin Jones and Tyler Eifert) don't play the ENTIRE season, it tends to change things a bit (not to mention AJ Green's injuries, Burfict). This team was built to have our average quarterback (Dalton) distribute the ball to our great weapons. But when the weapons aren't actually playing, it changes the entire outlook of the team. 

Look at the playoff game against Indy.  No Green. No Eifert. No Jones. No Gresham. Did anyone HONESTLY think we stood a chance against them without ANYONE playing? Dalton can only do so much, we all know this. But the product we had on the field was sub-par, and not playoff worthy. The Clowns would have played better than us in that game! 

That's why I would say this year is the last chance. Everyone (mostly everyone) is healthy. It's both coordinators' 2nd years. Complete continuity on both sides of the ball. JEREMY HILL (dudes a beast).  Barring MAJOR injuries (like last year), if this isn't the year, then I agree with everything you said.

But first, let the REAL Bengals play.

(09-10-2015, 02:32 PM)ExtraRadiohead Wrote: "For lots of you, Brown could lord over 10 Super Bowl champions, and he'd still be the guy who stole your wallet. If there were 10 rings behind glass at PBS, you'd lament the public money spent on the trophy case. Brown can't win, even if he does."




This is so true.

I thought it was a great article by Doc, and I agreed with most of what he said...but the sentence you quoted was kind of silly, IMO. 


In fairness, we have no way of knowing how the majority of fans would react to Mike lording over multiple championships...because he's yet to 'lord over' a single playoff win in a quarter century. 

Does it really matter? As Daugherty astutely points out, many have already formulated their opinion about this particular Bengals era.

Marvin could win the big one - "fans" will still consider him a big game bust, giggles, etc.

Andy could win the big one - "fans" will still present the same negatives they always do.

Mike could win the big one - idiots will still decry the stadium deal, cheapness, etc.

Thus, IMO, the legacy question is irrelevant. Having said that, 2015 could be a future defining season for many on this team including Marvin Lewis. That becomes the ultimate question.

(09-10-2015, 03:18 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I thought it was a great article by Doc, and I agreed with most of what he said...but the sentence you quoted was kind of silly, IMO. 


In fairness, we have no way of knowing how the majority of fans would react to Mike lording over multiple championships...because he's yet to 'lord over' a single playoff win in a quarter century. 

Exactly. I have no idea how people can claim that we'll all be sitting around bitching and moaning even if we win a Super Bowl. In which parallel universe does that make any sense??

The entire reason I've complained about the "Mike Brown way" is because we've been not only dealing with an empty trophy case since the existence of the franchise, but we've also not been able to enjoy a single postseason win since a good percentage of our fanbase has even been alive. That's crazy to think about!

So, why would I complain about MB if we had multiple championships considering the entire reason I complain about him is because we have no championships? It's mind boggling that some people will come up with things just to bash the fanbase for having an issue with an owner that hasn't been able to figure out a way to win ONE playoff game in approximately 25 years. Yeah, we're obviously overreacting and shouldn't hold this team to such high expectations like maybe winning 1 postseason game in over 2 decades.

(09-10-2015, 03:20 PM)Who Dey Time Wrote: Does it really matter?  As Daugherty astutely points out, many have already formulated their opinion about this particular Bengals era.

Marvin could win the big one - "fans" will still consider him a big game bust, giggles, etc.

Andy could win the big one - "fans" will still present the same negatives they always do.

Mike could win the big one - idiots will still decry the stadium deal, cheapness, etc.

Thus, IMO, the legacy question is irrelevant.  Having said that, 2015 could be a future defining season for many on this team including Marvin Lewis.  That becomes the ultimate question.

I like this game, let me try!

Marvin could have the most embarrassing primetime and postseason point spread (especially 2nd half of games) in NFL history - "fans" will still tell us to not sleep on Marvin and tell us how this is our year EVERY single year.

Andy could have one of the worst career postseason passer ratings in NFL history - "fans" will still deflect blame to others.

Mike could go a quarter of a century without a playoff win - idiots will still defend every move the team makes.

Herp derp, durrrrrrrr.