(11-25-2018, 08:37 PM)Lawless_1 Wrote: I doubt he has much trade value. I'm pretty sure if the Bengals can come to the conclusion Dalton is not the one then pretty much every other team will view him that way.

Yep. The other GM’s around the league had him as the 22nd best QB coming into this season. No one is giving you much for that.

(11-25-2018, 08:35 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: Who is this talent you speak of? I must have missed it. Joe Mixon is the best RB Dalton has had. Could you honestly say with a straight face that he's had a top talent RB in his career? As for receivers, he's had Green and Boyd is coming along nicely. Marvin Jones was good, but for 2 seasons in Cincinnati. Eifert produced the 40% of the time he played, but that's far from reliable production. I'm not trying to be a dick but I honestly don't see where Dalton has been surrounded by "all the talent a QB could ask for". With little effort it's easy to rattle off a few QBs who are surrounded by much better talent.

As for starting over, that's fine. Let's do it. Trade Dalton, don't just cut him. Don't bench him either because it would hurt his trade value. Trade some of the other favorites as well and be truly prepared to gut it out while Mike Brown leads a rebuild. Geno or Dunlap have to go, Burfict, Dalton, Bernard, maybe Green. We'd need the extra picks and there's not a ton of other players other than what I listed that would bring back those picks.

I disagree to an extent. Recently, Dalton hasn’t had a ton. All of the talent has left and their replacements haven’t planned out.

However, in 2014/2015, he was absolutely surrounded by talent. A healthy Eiferr, Whitworth/Boling/Zeitler on the line. Marvin was/is a low-end #1 as the second option, Sanu was/is a low end #2 as the third option.

I agree with everything else, though. The solution is to trade Dalton and start over.

(11-25-2018, 09:01 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Dalton has had plenty of talent around him. It is true that the talent the last few years hasn't been as good as it was, but Dalton couldn't get it done when the talent was there.

Your flat out wrong . He had a 30 + TD season and an MVP caliber season when he had the Talent around him.

(11-25-2018, 07:58 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Who’s Kanta? Sounds like a samurai.

(11-25-2018, 08:06 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: He not only led the Bengals fiercely but also drove around in a van and fought crime with this guy.

He is that kid from CFL - Kanta DeWitt.

But he is no good. He just can't do it.......

(11-25-2018, 09:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Coming into this weekend there were 29 QBs in the NFL with at least 200 attempts. Andy ranked 20th.

His line has protected him well, he's had effective rushing support, a he's had a WR corp that would rank top half in the NFL talent wise. 

Will folks ever realize after 8 years that 2015 was the outlier, not the norm? Also we have 0 idea how he would have finished the season. Very early in this season he was having a "MVP caliber season" and then he shit the bed, There's a very good chance he would have done that in 2015.

FWIW: Is there anybody left out there that would take Andy over Andrew? 

Nope. My very first thread here was comparing Dalton and Luck, and talking about how underrated Andy is...

Those days are long gone, and I’m embarrassed I ever thought that way. I’ve defended Dalton a lot elsewhere online, and he’s made me look bad for the last time. I’m ready to draft his replacement.

(11-25-2018, 09:27 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Nope. My very first thread here was comparing Dalton and Luck, and talking about how underrated Andy is...

Those days are long gone, and I’m embarrassed I ever thought that way. I’ve defended Dalton a lot elsewhere online, and he’s made me look bad for the last time. I’m ready to draft his replacement.

A couple of points:

1) How was Drew Brees doing without talent a few years ago? How is Rodgers doing now?

2) I have never seen an organization throw an entire SEASON. But the Colts did it to get Luck.....
A single player throwing a game will be blacklisted for life. 

(11-25-2018, 09:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Coming into this weekend there were 29 QBs in the NFL with at least 200 attempts. Andy ranked 20th.

His line has protected him well, he's had effective rushing support, a he's had a WR corp that would rank top half in the NFL talent wise. 

Will folks ever realize after 8 years that 2015 was the outlier, not the norm? Also we have 0 idea how he would have finished the season. Very early in this season he was having a "MVP caliber season" and then he shit the bed, There's a very good chance he would have done that in 2015.

FWIW: Is there anybody left out there that would take Andy over Andrew? 

One the Wr core hasn't been one of the best Ross has missed multiple games, Green has missed multiple games, and so has Eifert.
2.) Not getting sacked and good protection are two different things. We're not getting sacks because of how Quick Andy is getting the Ball out of his hands on passes.
3.) 2015 wasn't an outlier in 2013 he threw for over 30 + Tds and 4,000 yards. In 2016 He threw for 4,000 + yards, completed nearly 65% of his passes, and only threw 8 picks. Further more during the first 4 games of the year Andy had 3 games with a QB rating over 100, 3 games over 7 yards per a pass,  and 11 TDs( which would be 44 for whole year if he stayed on Pace). 

(11-25-2018, 09:18 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Your flat out wrong . He had a 30 + TD season and an MVP caliber season when he had the Talent around him.

And where's the SB appearance?

Oh, were you thinking that something less than the SB would be considered getting it done? NOT

(11-25-2018, 09:36 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: One the Wr core hasn't been one of the best Ross has missed multiple games, Green has missed multiple games, and so has Eifert.
2.) Not getting sacked and good protection are two different things. We're not getting sacks because of how Quick Andy is getting the Ball out of his hands on passes.
3.) 2015 wasn't an outlier in 2013 he threw for over 30 + Tds and 4,000 yards. In 2016 He threw for 4,000 + yards, completed nearly 65% of his passes, and only threw 8 picks. Further more during the first 4 games of the year Andy had 3 games with a QB rating over 100, 3 games over 7 yards per a pass,  and 11 TDs( which would be 44 for whole year if he stayed on Pace). 

1. Our WR core is just fine, good QBs make nobodys look good. We are making good talent look like nobodys

2. I post a stat last week that at least 12 other QB have a quicker time to release than Andy this year. The "quick release" train has run its course

3. I can list Andy's end of season rankings versus other starting QB in the NFl and let folks decide which season was the outlier? I'll bet I know what season folks will pick. You wanna take me up on it? 

(11-25-2018, 09:39 PM)BengalChris Wrote: And where's the SB appearance?

Oh, were you thinking that something less than the SB would be considered getting it done? NOT

Being kinda sorta in the MVP discussion for half a season buys you a lot of good faith among Bengals fans.

Move on from him already.

(11-25-2018, 09:43 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Being kinda sorta in the MVP discussion for half a season buys you a lot of good faith among Bengals fans.

A half a season out of 8 isn't going to get it done.

(11-25-2018, 07:09 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Disagree he has no heart, but you’re spot on as far as being the perfect QB for Mike Brown. He’s the Marvin Lewis of QB’s. Right in that mediocre sweet spot.

I’m officially ready to draft his replacement at this point. Need a QB that can put up huge numbers in the modern NFL, and Dalton is never going to throw for 400-500 yds.

Ofc it goes without saying it only matters if Marvin (and Hue) is gone.

I disagree. We need creativity, and innovation on the sidelines. Jared Goff is nothing special. Cooper Kupp... Robert Woods... C'mon man. That is coaching in LA. We're seeing the same thing in New Orleans and KC... New England's been doing it for years.

(11-25-2018, 09:49 PM)jason Wrote: I disagree. We need creativity, and innovation on the sidelines. Jared Goff is nothing special. Cooper Kupp... Robert Woods... C'mon man. That is coaching in LA. We're seeing the same thing in New Orleans and KC... New England's been doing it for years.

Goff went #1 for a reason. He’s miles better than Dalton. But yes, he needed to be free from Jeff Fisher to really shine.

(11-25-2018, 09:17 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I disagree to an extent. Recently, Dalton hasn’t had a ton. All of the talent has left and their replacements haven’t planned out.

However, in 2014/2015, he was absolutely surrounded by talent. A healthy Eiferr, Whitworth/Boling/Zeitler on the line. Marvin was/is a low-end #1 as the second option, Sanu was/is a low end #2 as the third option.

I agree with everything else, though. The solution is to trade Dalton and start over.

Marvin Jones and Eifert both missed 2014. Green missed games that year as well. Sanu was the best WR on the field a time or two that year. By the time they played the Colts in the playoffs Gio and Rex were lining up as WRs if I remember correctly.

(11-25-2018, 08:14 PM)jj22 Wrote: I'll always admire Dalton for coming in after the lockout with no training camp as a 2nd round pick etc, and doing what he did for as many years as he did, but it's time to tear it down and start over. We need a Browns like rebuild, but no one in the FO is smart enough to pull it off (trading our vets, stockpile picks).

No one goes until Marvin does however. Then we can trade anyone from Dalton on down and start from square one. We are 5 years away, along with another culture change.

That's why we acquired Hue again, nobody; but nobody can destroy a team like him, so he's in place for the rebuild. A couple of near winless seasons with him, trading off anybody who appears to be a capable player for picks; and the rebuild is on. Hue will be laughing all the way. Personally, I'd rather find a Sean McVay clone and fix everything in a couple of years...he's out there somewhere.

(11-25-2018, 09:51 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Goff went #1 for a reason. He’s miles better than Dalton. But yes, he needed to be free from Jeff Fisher to really shine.

Goffs not a scrub, but flip flop Andy and him, and I do believe Dalton would be making things happen under McVay. We've already seen Goff under the white Marvin Lewis.

(11-25-2018, 10:00 PM)jason Wrote: Goffs not a scrub, but flip flop Andy and him, and I do believe Dalton would be making things happen under McVay. We've already seen Goff under the white Marvin Lewis.

Even with a great coach I don’t think Andy could put up the kinds of numbers Goff did in that shootout against KC. 400+ yds 4 TD’s 0 int. He’s just not that guy.

(11-25-2018, 07:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Next year Andy will cost us over $16 Mil. and he has 0 dead money. After 8 years we may want to explore other options.

Wow, a sensible post amidst the ramblings. If people are gonna criticize him, at least spell his name right! Spell check is a wonderful thing, though it doesn't work on proper names. I have no idea what some of these posts are trying to say.

(11-25-2018, 07:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Next year Andy will cost us over $16 Mil. and he has 0 dead money. After 8 years we may want to explore other options.

Hum, that should up his trade value then.