(11-26-2018, 08:28 PM)Whatever Wrote: Kevin Hardy
John Thornton
Tory James
Antwan Odom
Laverneous Coles
Antonio Bryant 
Sam Adams
Terrell Owens


Also, via trade he acquired

Cordy Glenn
Reggie Nelson
Deltha O'Neal

Most of those guys were C Level Free Agents or on the wrong side of 30. Nelson and ONeal were considered busts.

Same with Glenn. He was injured the past 2 seasons and the Bills had a younger, cheaper replacement and dumped his salary on us.

(11-26-2018, 06:10 PM)depthchart Wrote: If, as you imply, Marvin would have turned Akili & Klingler into Studs if only Marvin had been there; then why complain about the players Marvin gets on a Roster.

He can turn Turds into Gold, so he should be able to turn any 53 man Roster (turds or not) into 53 Gold Nuggets by his mere presence alone.

Why complain about Rosters at all then, Fred ? 

Especially if those Rosters are just one or two players away as you imply.

Just let Marvin Coach them all up...

This is getting kind of silly.  You can never argue with what I really say so you make up strawmen to knock down.

Marvin can improve players, but I never said he could turn every player into a stud.

Now where is that list of free agents that shows how much Mike Brown has changed?

(11-26-2018, 08:49 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Most of those guys were C Level Free Agents or on the wrong side of 30. Nelson and ONeal were considered busts.

Same with Glenn. He was injured the past 2 seasons and the Bills had a younger, cheaper replacement and dumped his salary on us.

I'd say Hardy, James, Thornton, Odom, Coles, Bryant and Glenn were more like "tier B" free agents.

TO and Deltha were only tier C due to attitude questions, but were tier B based on skill level.

O'Neal was a good player in Denver, and tbh Nelson was pretty good in Jacksonville as well.

We definitely could've done better with free agency, but I stand by "if the team is good enough to win divisions, they're good enough to win playoff games".

(11-26-2018, 07:19 PM)SladeX Wrote: Fred, there is no comparison to the rosters of the 90s. Mike let at least 10 starting players leave the team in the span of less than 2 years! My username on Bengals noards in those days was the last initial of each of them (adjssmpj or something). It got so long i ginally gave up. The roster was utterly devoid of nfl talent for years. The fact that Shula or coslett got any wins out of them must make them among the best of all time!

A lot of them looked bad because of bad coaching.

We had two first round picks that became Pro Bowlers when they left the Bengals. (Alfred Williams and Darryl Williams)

Garrison Hearst had 1300 yd seasons for both the Cards and Forty-niners, but he couldn't crack 1000 with us.

(11-26-2018, 08:28 PM)Whatever Wrote: Kevin Hardy
John Thornton
Tory James
Antwan Odom
Laverneous Coles
Antonio Bryant 
Sam Adams
Terrell Owens


Also, via trade he acquired

Cordy Glenn
Reggie Nelson
Deltha O'Neal

Not much better than 

Garrison Hearst, Scott Mitchell, Louis Oliver, Gary Reasons, Clyde Simmons, Danny Stubbs, Bo Orlando, and Jimmy Spencer

(11-26-2018, 09:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'd say Hardy, James, Thornton, Odom, Coles, Bryant and Glenn were more like "tier B" free agents.

TO and Deltha were only tier C due to attitude questions, but were tier B based on skill level.

O'Neal was a good player in Denver, and tbh Nelson was pretty good in Jacksonville as well.

We definitely could've done better with free agency, but I stand by "if the team is good enough to win divisions, they're good enough to win playoff games".

Well there in is the challenge. We did have a really good roster for like 1-2 seasons...and didn't get it done in the playoffs.

Other years we had an above average roster and didn't get it done.

Some years, we overachieved and made the playoffs and lost.

When you coach for 16 years, you have a mixture.

(11-26-2018, 09:37 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Well there in is the challenge. We did have a really good roster for like 1-2 seasons...and didn't get it done in the playoffs.

Other years we had an above average roster and didn't get it done.

Some years, we overachieved and made the playoffs and lost.

When you coach for 16 years, you have a mixture.

True. I'd say we overachieved in 2009 and Marvin earned that coach of the year award.

That said, we've definitely underachieved more often. 0 playoff wins with teams that included:

Palmer
Dalton
AJ Green
Chad 
Housh
Marvin Jones
Sanu
Boyd
Eifert
Gresham
Whit
Braham
Zeitler
Steinbach
Willie
Justin Smith
Brian Simmons
Atkins
Dunlap
Rudi
Benson
Hill
Gio
Mixon
Burfict
Thurman
Deltha
Tory James
Leon Hall
JJo
Nelson
Bates
etc etc

It's inexcusable. Instead of talking about free agency, how about we talk about all the talent we had that was wasted?

(11-24-2018, 03:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Exactly.  The very best teams make the playoffs the most often.

The very best teams win in the playoffs the most often, not just make it.
When you think of the VERY best teams when it comes to January, who do you think of?


Chargers have one less playoff appearance than the Bengals. But have gone to the conference championship. Have also won 4 games. Being 4-6.

You can't be "the very best" when you haven't won a playoff game in those 16 years. Especially when 13/16 of the NFL has won a playoff game during that time frame. That's 81% of the league. The Bengals are part of the 19%.

That's not being a part of the very best. That's part of being the very worst.

I'm 26 years old, about to be 27 in January. The Bengals have never won a playoff game since I've been alive.
16 of those 26 years are with Marvin. That's not good, no matter how much you try to spin it.

Marvin has been given chance after chance to rebuild this team how he wants. Yes. Mike Brown is a bad owner. But the Bengals have had NUMEROUS great players and coordinators.

You're going to sit there and tell me a team with as much talent as the Bengals have had the past 7 years that Marvin should be off the hook because of Mike Brown? That's ridiculous.

Marvin is mediocre. He's drafted this team. He's put together THIS team.

I could give countless stats about how Marvin ranks against other coaches who make the playoffs, but you'll just ignore them.

Marvin Lewis is our Jeff Fisher. He is our Jim Mora.
The Bengals will not win a playoff game with him. And that's on HIM.
4 of his 7 playoff games; the Bengals were shut out completely in the 2nd half.
Only 2 of his 7 playoff games did the Bengals even score a TD in the 2nd half.
He's been outscored 96-29.
That's an average of 4 points per second half.

So. No. This is not one of the very best teams.
Again, those teams that have made it more than the Bengals have won a Super Bowl.
Those that tied with the Bengals, have made a Super Bowl.
Marvin can't even get out of the wildcard spot, and 26 other teams have done that at least once since he's been here.

(11-26-2018, 10:08 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: The very best teams win in the playoffs the most often, not just make it.
When you think of the VERY best teams when it comes to January, who do you think of?


Chargers have one less playoff appearance than the Bengals. But have gone to the conference championship. Have also won 4 games. Being 4-6.

You can't be "the very best" when you haven't won a playoff game in those 16 years. Especially when 13/16 of the NFL has won a playoff game during that time frame. That's 81% of the league. The Bengals are part of the 19%.

That's not being a part of the very best. That's part of being the very worst.

I'm 26 years old, about to be 27 in January. The Bengals have never won a playoff game since I've been alive.
16 of those 26 years are with Marvin. That's not good, no matter how much you try to spin it.

Marvin has been given chance after chance to rebuild this team how he wants. Yes. Mike Brown is a bad owner. But the Bengals have had NUMEROUS great players and coordinators.

You're going to sit there and tell me a team with as much talent as the Bengals have had the past 7 years that Marvin should be off the hook because of Mike Brown? That's ridiculous.

Marvin is mediocre. He's drafted this team. He's put together THIS team.

I could give countless stats about how Marvin ranks against other coaches who make the playoffs, but you'll just ignore them.

Marvin Lewis is our Jeff Fisher. He is our Jim Mora.
The Bengals will not win a playoff game with him. And that's on HIM.
4 of his 7 playoff games; the Bengals were shut out completely in the 2nd half.
Only 2 of his 7 playoff games did the Bengals even score a TD in the 2nd half.
He's been outscored 96-29.
That's an average of 4 points per second half.

So. No. This is not one of the very best teams.
Again, those teams that have made it more than the Bengals have won a Super Bowl.
Those that tied with the Bengals, have made a Super Bowl.
Marvin can't even get out of the wildcard spot, and 26 other teams have done that at least once since he's been here.

If I was on the jury and this was your closing argument, I'd vote guilty, really guilty, super guilty, guilty as hell.

When you see it laid out like that, it is some truly damning shit.

(11-26-2018, 09:45 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: True. I'd say we overachieved in 2009 and Marvin earned that coach of the year award.

That said, we've definitely underachieved more often. 0 playoff wins with teams that included:

Palmer
Dalton
AJ Green
Chad 
Housh
Marvin Jones
Sanu
Boyd
Eifert
Gresham
Whit
Braham
Zeitler
Steinbach
Willie
Justin Smith
Brian Simmons
Atkins
Dunlap
Rudi
Benson
Hill
Gio
Mixon
Burfict
Thurman
Deltha
Tory James
Leon Hall
JJo
Nelson
Bates
etc etc

It's inexcusable. Instead of talking about free agency, how about we talk about all the talent we had that was wasted?

That is actually not a lot of talent spread out over 15 years.

Marvin has had 17 position players selected to the Pro Bowl and 4 who were All Pro.  Over the same period of time the Steelers have had 27 and 10.  Ravens have had 26 and 13.  Even one of the worst teams in the league over that span, the buffalo Bills, had 22 players selected to the Pro Bowl.

(11-26-2018, 08:49 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Most of those guys were C Level Free Agents or on the wrong side of 30. Nelson and ONeal were considered busts.

Same with Glenn. He was injured the past 2 seasons and the Bills had a younger, cheaper replacement and dumped his salary on us.

O'Neal made the Pro Bowl the year prior with Denver. How was he a bust?

Odom and Thornton were hot commodities coming off of career years when they signed here.  James was in his prime and went to the Pro Bowl in his first year with the Bengals.  TO was a year removed from a 1st team All Pro season.  Adams was a year removed from the Pro Bowl.  Bryant was a year removed from a 1200 yard season.

It's easy to bag on these pickups now, because many didn't work out, but those guys were perceived to be a A and B tier FA's.

(11-26-2018, 10:08 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: The very best teams win in the playoffs the most often, not just make it.
When you think of the VERY best teams when it comes to January, who do you think of?


Chargers have one less playoff appearance than the Bengals. But have gone to the conference championship. Have also won 4 games. Being 4-6.

You can't be "the very best" when you haven't won a playoff game in those 16 years. Especially when 13/16 of the NFL has won a playoff game during that time frame. That's 81% of the league. The Bengals are part of the 19%.

That's not being a part of the very best. That's part of being the very worst.

I'm 26 years old, about to be 27 in January. The Bengals have never won a playoff game since I've been alive.
16 of those 26 years are with Marvin. That's not good, no matter how much you try to spin it.

Marvin has been given chance after chance to rebuild this team how he wants. Yes. Mike Brown is a bad owner. But the Bengals have had NUMEROUS great players and coordinators.

You're going to sit there and tell me a team with as much talent as the Bengals have had the past 7 years that Marvin should be off the hook because of Mike Brown? That's ridiculous.

Marvin is mediocre. He's drafted this team. He's put together THIS team.

I could give countless stats about how Marvin ranks against other coaches who make the playoffs, but you'll just ignore them.

Marvin Lewis is our Jeff Fisher. He is our Jim Mora.
The Bengals will not win a playoff game with him. And that's on HIM.
4 of his 7 playoff games; the Bengals were shut out completely in the 2nd half.
Only 2 of his 7 playoff games did the Bengals even score a TD in the 2nd half.
He's been outscored 96-29.
That's an average of 4 points per second half.

So. No. This is not one of the very best teams.
Again, those teams that have made it more than the Bengals have won a Super Bowl.
Those that tied with the Bengals, have made a Super Bowl.
Marvin can't even get out of the wildcard spot, and 26 other teams have done that at least once since he's been here.

Your birth jinxed them! Would you sign a consent waiver for us to throw you in a volcano to cleanse us of this curse?

(11-26-2018, 10:18 PM)Whatever Wrote: O'Neal made the Pro Bowl the year prior with Denver.  How was he a bust?

Odom and Thornton were hot commodities coming off of career years when they signed here.  James was in his prime and went to the Pro Bowl in his first year with the Bengals.  TO was a year removed from a 1st team All Pro season.  Adams was a year removed from the Pro Bowl.  Bryant was a year removed from a 1200 yard season.

It's easy to bag on these pickups now, because many didn't work out, but those guys were perceived to be a A and B tier FA's.

O'Neal made the Pro Bowl in 2001 and 2005. He came here in 2004.

Wasn't it as a kick returner that he made it in 2001?

Thornton was a backup with the Titans that showed some flash that came here to be a starter. He was hardly a huge name.

Adams was 33. He played 1 more year after being here.

Bryant had a severe injury that our medical staff didn't spot and he never played a down here.

No teams wanted TO. None...except us.

NONE of those guys were Tier A free agents. None.

And you mixed trades in with free agents.

(11-26-2018, 09:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: A lot of them looked bad because of bad coaching.

We had two first round picks that became Pro Bowlers when they left the Bengals. (Alfred Williams and Darryl Williams)

Garrison Hearst had 1300 yd seasons for both the Cards and Forty-niners, but he couldn't crack 1000 with us.

My memory is better than that! After Paul passed, and FA went into full swing, Mike embarked on an unprecedented austerity program, which included purging theroster of every high priced vet. What was left was barely better than a strike roster! Remember fred, the master plan, securing the franchise for the Brown family? The players you mentioned wete rrandom nuggets of corn in a pile of crap. Coaching wasn't the main problem with those teams, not by a long shot! The starters were in reality 2nd and 3rd stringers! Not that the coaching was any good either. Or was it? We had LeBeau for a number of those years, was he a bad coach? 
Carson Palmer was drafted during Marvin's reign, correct? 
Hell, you could blame the Bengals turnaround on him just as much as Lewis, for tthat matter! 

"fredtoast



No, but I will point out that we drafted three Pro Bowl players in 2010 (Gresham, Dunlap, Atkins); 2 more Pro Bowlers and a top starter in 2011 (Dalton, Green, Boling); and 4 more players in 2012 who all received huge free agent contracts (Kirkpatrick, Zeitler, Sanu, Jones) plus another guy who was a 5 year starter in the league (Iloka).


That is a ton of talent in three years.  I don't expect drafts like that every year, but it is not impossible"


Quoted from another thread. Thanks Fred!

(11-26-2018, 10:08 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Marvin can't even get out of the wildcard spot, and 26 other teams have done that at least once since he's been here.

Which team was more successful over the previous 15 years

91-148-1..... .381%..... 2 winning seasons..... 11 losing seasons..... 1 playoff win
125-112-3... .527%..... 7 winning seasons.....  5 losing seasons..... 0 playoff wins

(11-26-2018, 10:32 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: O'Neal made the Pro Bowl in 2001 and 2005. He came here in 2004.

Wasn't it as a kick returner that he made it in 2001?

Thornton was a backup with the Titans that showed some flash that came here to be a starter. He was hardly a huge name.

Adams was 33. He played 1 more year after being here.

Bryant had a severe injury that our medical staff didn't spot and he never played a down here.

No teams wanted TO. None...except us.

NONE of those guys were Tier A free agents. None.

And you mixed trades in with free agents.

O'Neal had 9 picks in '01.  Pretty sure he made it as a CB.

Thornton started 16 games his second year in the league.  He only played 3 the following year when dealing with injury, but started all 16 games the following year before hitting FA.  He was not a backup that left to be a starter.

Nobody wanted TO's attitude, but he still had plenty of ability.

Bryant hid his injury, but he was a big name.  He and TO were the top rated UFA WR's in the 2010 class.

If the complaint is not adding quality veterans to help Marvin win(as Fred has), then it's more than fair to point out quality veterans the team added via trade.

(11-26-2018, 10:55 PM)SladeX Wrote: My memory is better than that! After Paul passed, and FA went into full swing, Mike embarked on an unprecedented austerity program, which included purging theroster of every high priced vet. What was left was barely better than a strike roster! Remember fred, the master plan, securing the franchise for the Brown family? The players you mentioned wete rrandom nuggets of corn in a pile of crap. Coaching wasn't the main problem with those teams, not by a long shot! The starters were in reality 2nd and 3rd stringers! Not that the coaching was any good either. Or was it? We had LeBeau for a number of those years, was he a bad coach? 
Carson Palmer was drafted during Marvin's reign, correct? 
Hell, you could blame the Bengals turnaround on him just as much as Lewis, for tthat matter! 

Well that's just it. Modern free agency started in 1991/1992 and we haven't won a single playoff game since modern free agency started.

(11-26-2018, 11:21 PM)SladeX Wrote: "fredtoast (from the Saints 2017 thread)



No, but I will point out that we drafted three Pro Bowl players in 2010 (Gresham, Dunlap, Atkins); 2 more Pro Bowlers and a top starter in 2011 (Dalton, Green, Boling); and 4 more players in 2012 who all received huge free agent contracts (Kirkpatrick, Zeitler, Sanu, Jones) plus another guy who was a 5 year starter in the league (Iloka).


That is a ton of talent in three years.  I don't expect drafts like that every year, but it is not impossible"


Quoted from another thread. Thanks Fred!

Aren't you arguing that Marvin has had utter crap to work with? I doubt the pre Marvin Mike Brown led Bengals ever had one single draft as productive as any one of those, damn sure nothing remotely resembling a 3 year stretch like that! N E V E R !!!!!
No, the difference in these years is just as well be down to better drafting and FA "depth signings" than any coaching acumen that Lewis displays. It could be be just as easily argued that GM Lewis, and the "beefed up" scouting department (by Bengal standards, anyway) are the real reason the team has had any success, because as you point out, they could draft well at times. His game day coaching and preparation? Afraid not. i would say Lewis' best contribution to this team has been however much he incrementally, inch-by-inch got Brown to move into the the year 2003. Don't forget, both have been quoted as saying they worked as a team. I would imagine, no greatly hope, pray, actually, that their teamwork didn't extend past the front office onto the playing field...

(11-27-2018, 01:02 AM)SladeX Wrote: Aren't you arguing that Marvin has had utter crap to work with? 

No.  Not at all.  I am just saying that Mike Browns refusal to sign free agents to fill crucial holes in our lineup has held Marvin back.

We have had talent, but when we come close Mike refuses to take the extra step needed to build a true contender.