(12-03-2018, 11:37 AM)lone bengal Wrote: I don’t know anymore I said the same thing about Billings and a lot of people said he’s playing good according to PFF. Seems like everyone on defense is playing good according to some people and PFF. Geno and Dunlap are still playing great. Billings is an above average NT. The denfense was bad because Dennard and Vigil were hurt ! There both back now. Bates is rated great on PPF. Shawn Williams plays great every week and is under appreciated. William Jackson is giving up no yards and so on. You would think we have an all star team playing defense. I have no idea how ppf works but when I watch the real games with my eyes I see a ton of holes on defense but idk maybe I’m crazy and PPF is right.

No way. The CB's all grade mediocre to bad except Jackson who grades average.

The LB's all basically grade out as bad. Some among the worst of the Worst of the NFL.

MJ grades out as Terrible.

In general, the defensive line is Good and the Safeties are Above Average.

I saw a stat a couple weeks ago that our LB's have given up the most completion yards in the NFL of all LB groups. Plus, they can't tackle or stop the run.

(12-03-2018, 12:19 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: THE DI PFF ratings seem to be inflated, where RB rankings are lower.

I think DI is a simplier position and harder to screw things up too bad at. Whereas RB, you have to do a lot of stuff there that you could mess up, like pass protection. For instance, if a RB gives up a sack...that's a big thing. Fans might not even notice it, if the guy carries the ball good. But that sack was a big thing in the game.

I have an idea why DI might have a higher average number than average RB.  Fewer men possess the body and skillset to play the position, harder to find.  That could be why the best DL go so high in the draft, because there is such a huge drop off in talent, once you get past the cream of the crop.  Whereas with RB, starter quality backs can usually be found at all levels of the draft and free agent pools.  (Lindsay, anyone??)

(12-03-2018, 12:41 PM)Au165 Wrote: There are gaps that are supposed to be filled by the line and there are gaps that are supposed to be filled by the linebackers and secondary. Based on the shell those can actually change play to play as well as with offensive alignment. Just because they run left or right of him does not mean it was his responsibility as strange as that sounds to most. 

As I said he is an average to above average DT. 

I'm going to continue to respectfully disagree with you on this.  His ranking among all that play the same or similar position is far from average to above.

(12-03-2018, 01:10 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm going to continue to respectfully disagree with you on this.  His ranking among all that play the same or similar position is far from average to above.

I mean if someone wants to start posting video rather than recollection we can break down the run fits and figure out who had what responsibility.

(12-03-2018, 11:37 AM)lone bengal Wrote: I don’t know anymore I said the same thing about Billings and a lot of people said he’s playing good according to PFF. Seems like everyone on defense is playing good according to some people and PFF. Geno and Dunlap are still playing great. Billings is an above average NT. The denfense was bad because Dennard and Vigil were hurt ! There both back now. Bates is rated great on PPF. Shawn Williams plays great every week and is under appreciated. William Jackson is giving up no yards and so on. You would think we have an all star team playing defense. I have no idea how ppf works but when I watch the real games with my eyes I see a ton of holes on defense but idk maybe I’m crazy and PPF is right.

LB play has been poor against the pass and run.

https://www.denverbroncos.com/video/phillip-lindsay-s-best-runs-vs-the-bengals-week-13

Here let's look at a highlight reel of Lyndsay's runs.

Run 1- Backside A gap control pushes guy two yards deep and goes to ground. Would be graded positive. Run away from him.
Run 2- Backside A gap control pushes guy two yards deep and goes to ground. Would be graded positive. Run away from him.
Run 3- Not in.
Run 4 (TD Run)- Backside A gap control pushes guy 3 yards deep and goes to ground. Would be graded positive. Burfict had cut back contained and over pursued.
Run 5- Not in.
Run 6- Backside A gap control pushes guy a yard deep and goes to ground. Would be graded positive. Run away from him.
Run 7- Backside A gap gets pushed back to yards run cut back into his gap. This one is on Billings.

Of Lyndsay's big runs only 1 was a result of poor play from Billings. Some were because he wasn't in. Others had nothing to do with him but he got deep push into the backfield making a cut back a moot point.

(12-03-2018, 01:08 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I have an idea why DI might have a higher average number than average RB.  Fewer men possess the body and skillset to play the position, harder to find.  That could be why the best DL go so high in the draft, because there is such a huge drop off in talent, once you get past the cream of the crop.  Whereas with RB, starter quality backs can usually be found at all levels of the draft and free agent pools.  (Lindsay, anyone??)

Now you look at the Steelers - Cam Hayward 82.3 - #18 DI.
Hargrave 81.4 - #20 DI.
Tuitt 77.5 - #24 DI.

Then, Dupree 63.5 #68 ED.
Watt - 62.8 #71 ED.

Vince Williams 68.4, #30 LB.
Bostic 64.3, #39 LB.
Fort 69.2.

(12-03-2018, 01:43 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: LB play has been poor against the pass and run.

It’s more than just the linebackers. The defensive ends don’t set the edge. The tackling has been poor at every level this season. Ever seen Kirkpatrick’s attempts at tackling ? The Saints game on Mark Ingram touchdown both Bates and Williams completely wiffed on the tackle it was embarrassing. We literally carried the tight end from Cleveland into the end zone last week while some defenders watched. We can’t get to the quarterback when we need to. Baker Mayfiled threw the ball all over against us not just on the linebackers. Blown assignments in the secondary were a problem this season giving up huge passing td’s like in the Tampa game which was the corners and safeties not the linebackers. An we have 100 threads about how Vigil , Burfict and Dennard were hurt so that’s why the defense sucked and there back and they are not good.

(12-03-2018, 02:14 PM)lone bengal Wrote: It’s more than just the linebackers. The defensive ends don’t set the edge. The tackling has been poor at every level this season. Ever seen Kirkpatrick’s attempts at tackling ? The Saints game on Mark Ingram touchdown both Bates and Williams completely wiffed on the tackle it was embarrassing. We literally carried the tight end from Cleveland into the end zone last week.  We can’t get to the quarterback when we need to. Baker Mayfiled threw the ball all over against us not just on the linebackers. Blown assignments in the secondary were a problem this season giving up huge passing td’s like in the Tampa game which was the corners and safeties not the linebackers.  An we have 100 threads about how Vigil , Burfict and Dennard were hurt so that’s why the defense sucked and there back and they are not good.

It's hard to see them not setting the edge on TV, but the game I went to I could see it a lot. The guys all bunch up and allow cutbacks.

A big reason why Billings rating is low is how much emphasis PFF puts on rushing the passer.

I was hard on Billings earlier in the season but he has really improved through out the year.

(12-03-2018, 02:14 PM)lone bengal Wrote: It’s more than just the linebackers. The defensive ends don’t set the edge. The tackling has been poor at every level this season. Ever seen Kirkpatrick’s attempts at tackling ? The Saints game on Mark Ingram touchdown both Bates and Williams completely wiffed on the tackle it was embarrassing. We literally carried the tight end from Cleveland into the end zone last week while some defenders watched. We can’t get to the quarterback when we need to. Baker Mayfiled threw the ball all over against us not just on the linebackers. Blown assignments in the secondary were a problem this season giving up huge passing td’s like in the Tampa game which was the corners and safeties not the linebackers.  An we have 100 threads about how Vigil , Burfict and Dennard were hurt so that’s why the defense sucked and there back and they are not good.

1.) LBers are the main problem they lack Athletic ability and they can't beat the RB to the edge. Also they can't cover worth crap. They have given up the most yards from in coverage a LB group has ever given up.
2.) There have been coverage break downs from time to time in the secondary. However for the most part when there asked to be in man to man Defense the do an excellent job. Have they missed some tackles sure but for the most part our tackling in the back part of the Defense has been solid
3.) QBs want to get rid of the ball quickly where not making tackles and we're not covering TEs and RBs effectively enough out of the back field. That's the main problem with the defense right now. Geno was getting pressure yesterday but every  time he got close the ball was out.  It's been like that since the dolphin game. The QB has to hold the ball longer for the sacks to come.
4.) Vontaz has been a dissapointment, Dennard is still good, and Vigil just came back yesterday. Also believe it or not that was our best performance since the Miami game. 

(12-03-2018, 02:29 PM)Synric Wrote: A big reason why Billings rating is low is how much emphasis PFF puts on rushing the passer.

I was hard on Billings earlier in the season but he has really improved through out the year.

His pass rush has been solid for a nose too.

(12-03-2018, 02:18 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It's hard to see them not setting the edge on TV, but the game I went to I could see it a lot. The guys all bunch up and allow cutbacks.

That's not an edge setting issue that's an over pursuit issue by the LB's which is a huge problem for us. To be fair to Marvin, when he says guys have to do their jobs I think this is one of the things he is talking about. Everyone running to the ball like youth soccer players rather than staying in your run fit and keeping gap integrity. Don't get me wrong we are struggling with our contain man not actually containing but this specific example is indicative of a whole other issue we have. 

(12-03-2018, 03:05 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: 1.) LBers are the main problem they lack Athletic ability and they can't beat the RB to the edge. Also they can't cover worth crap. They have given up the most yards from in coverage a LB group has ever given up.
2.) There have been coverage break downs from time to time in the secondary. However for the most part when there asked to be in man to man Defense the do an excellent job. Have they missed some tackles sure but for the most part our tackling in the back part of the Defense has been solid
3.) QBs want to get rid of the ball quickly where not making tackles and we're not covering TEs and RBs effectively enough out of the back field. That's the main problem with the defense right now. Geno was getting pressure yesterday but every  time he got close the ball was out.  It's been like that since the dolphin game. The QB has to hold the ball longer for the sacks to come.
4.) Vontaz has been a dissapointment, Dennard is still good, and Vigil just came back yesterday. Also believe it or not that was our best performance since the Miami game. 

Ok so we will just get some quality linebackers and this defense will be fine, sounds good and like a simple fix. Well just two because everybody thinks Vigil is good. Even tho the guy can’t shed a block to save his life and sucked even when he was healthy vs Altalnta, Carolina, etc. Best performance giving up 218 yards on the ground. Guess that’s good because the bar is set so low around here.

(12-03-2018, 02:07 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Doesnt matter who, when, or where we are playing. Billings is always on the ground. What is he looking for down there? Gotta be something good to be face first in the ground so much.

Boy was i hype when we got him as a steal in the draft. Boy was i wrong.

I am not making excuses for him as i was probably the biggest Billings hyping dude on here.

He is on the ground way too much but that #79 guy was way worse in this game, i saw Billings make a couple
good run stops and he is still way too young to say we are wrong about the guy. Still have hopes with a decent
DC and Geno and Glasgow around.

The Defense actually was not terrible in this game like they have been all year besides the Phins game.

The Offense just didn't show up, a few bad mistakes from Driskell but we have to score more than that.

The O-line is the problem, i might of been wrong about Pollack. Still no Westerman while Hopkins plays terrible
at Guard. Hopkins is clearly a better Center than Guard.

(12-03-2018, 03:49 PM)lone bengal Wrote: Ok so we will just get some quality linebackers and this defense will be fine, sounds good and like a simple fix.  Well just two because everybody thinks Vigil is good. Even tho the guy can’t shed a block to save his life and sucked even when he was healthy vs Altalnta, Carolina, etc. Best performance giving up 218 yards on the ground. Guess that’s good because the bar is set so low around here.

It is a low bar, sad when i have to say the Defense wasn't terrible and its a step up lol

(12-03-2018, 03:49 PM)lone bengal Wrote: Ok so we will just get some quality linebackers and this defense will be fine, sounds good and like a simple fix.  Well just two because everybody thinks Vigil is good. Even tho the guy can’t shed a block to save his life and sucked even when he was healthy vs Altalnta, Carolina, etc. Best performance giving up 218 yards on the ground. Guess that’s good because the bar is set so low around here.

I think that IF we could obtain a solid, fast MLB that could cover...that Vigil and MAYBE Evans might be enough.

That said, I think Evans should be replaced...so we need 2 starters.

I think Vigil is a capable 3rd LB. IF he's your best...you're in trouble though big time.

(12-03-2018, 01:47 PM)Au165 Wrote: https://www.denverbroncos.com/video/phillip-lindsay-s-best-runs-vs-the-bengals-week-13

Here let's look at a highlight reel of Lyndsay's runs.

Run 1- Backside A gap control pushes guy two yards deep and goes to ground. Would be graded positive. Run away from him.
Run 2- Backside A gap control pushes guy two yards deep and goes to ground. Would be graded positive. Run away from him.
Run 3- Not in.
Run 4 (TD Run)- Backside A gap control pushes guy 3 yards deep and goes to ground. Would be graded positive. Burfict had cut back contained and over pursued.
Run 5- Not in.
Run 6- Backside A gap control pushes guy a yard deep and goes to ground. Would be graded positive. Run away from him.
Run 7- Backside A gap gets pushed back to yards run cut back into his gap. This one is on Billings.

Of Lyndsay's big runs only 1 was a result of poor play from Billings. Some were because he wasn't in. Others had nothing to do with him but he got deep push into the backfield making a cut back a moot point.

I went through that vid step by step. Besides a lot of players being out of position and flat out tripping over each other, i also noticed a lot of holding and blocks in the back that weren't called. And yes, Burfict appears to be finished.

Billings is top heavy as Hell and he tips over every time he tries to change direction. Then he must wage an epic battle against the forces of gravity in order to get back up off the turf.

(12-04-2018, 01:12 AM)HuDey Wrote: Billings is top heavy as Hell and he tips over every time he tries to change direction. Then he must wage an epic battle against the forces of gravity in order to get back up off the turf.

It's a physics issue, he drives guys back two yards with resistance then they eventually let up and he falls forward. When grading each play you'd grade the O linemen negative every time that happened even if Billings falls down as being pushed back that deep on a run is a complete stopper if the run is that direction and it kills cut backs.