(12-05-2018, 02:12 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: I don't think they've done a "good job" (defense is dead last in four major categories), but it's also silly to blast them for getting paid what they're willing to be paid. Agree with you there. But they're still apart of one of the worst D's in many, many years... even if they are producing. I have a hard time labeling anyone on D good with those stats tbh

When I say they've done a good job, I mean those two individuals specifically. You are taking the whole collection of guys as the whole defense and saying it's Dunlap's and Atkins' responsibility for being last? Because if so, I disagree. Just because you are paid the most on the team doesn't mean you should be responsible for the whole unit performing well.

(12-05-2018, 02:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dunlap is consistently among lead leaders in QB pressures, QB hits, and PD (tipped passes).

Some people act like sacks are the only stat for pass rushers.  That is just not true.

Dunlap is at his best when Geno pushes into the QBs face and has to move out of the pocket. I don't know why Geno isn't getting that same push but Geno should have got a little kick back from Dunlap. Dunlap is good but not 15million/yr good.

(12-05-2018, 02:38 PM)eoxyod Wrote: This
And the more the passing league comes into play, the more a DE like Dunlap is asked for. We got him for a relative bargain. Geno and Dunlap have been playing fine (maybe Dunlap has played slightly worse but not in an alarming sense). The rest of the DL is playing like poo besides one or two plays a game from Hubbard and Billings, and that is the issue

Also, how are people complaining about maybe slightly overpaying 2 very good players when we have some of the highest cap space in the league and ***** about not spending money. You all realize you have to 'overpay' every player in FA right?

The Eagles overpaid last year and look where it got them. The Rams are in a good position and they overpaid. But you are happy with the Bengals ways of doing things. How's that working out?

(12-05-2018, 03:04 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: The Eagles overpaid last year and look where it got them. The Rams are in a good position and they overpaid. But you are happy with the Bengals ways of doing things. How's that working out?

I don't know how you think that post meant I was happy with the way the Bengals are operating. I despise the way the team operates and I can guarantee I know a lot more about just how poorly this team is run than you. I'm saying fans shouldn't be hypocrites on paying people. 

Edit - I just realized I was super aggressive to you for a pissing contest over how much we hate this team and I apologize for that

(12-05-2018, 02:18 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: I also was happy but didn't realize how much a drop off the two would have. In the Steelers game alone BR dropped back 46 times and was sacked ZERO. It seems if we let a FA go i.e. Whit, they do great with another team but when we resign some FAs they seem complacent. The way the Bengals do there signings it leaves very little money to sign other teams FAs. They need to do like other teams and try to follow a winning programs outline.

Drop off?
Carlos Dunlap only had 8.0 sacks in 2016 and 7.5 sacks last year.
He is currently at 7.0 this year with 4 games left. He's actually on pace to outperform himself from the past two years.
Atkins only had 9.0 sacks each in 2016 and 2017.
He's also currently at 7.0 this year with 4 games left. He's also on pace to outperform himself from the past two years.

So no, there is no drop off.

(12-05-2018, 03:18 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Drop off?
Carlos Dunlap only had 8.0 sacks in 2016 and 7.5 sacks last year.
He is currently at 7.0 this year with 4 games left. He's actually on pace to outperform himself from the past two years.
Atkins only had 9.0 sacks each in 2016 and 2017.
He's also currently at 7.0 this year with 4 games left. He's also on pace to outperform himself from the past two years.

So no, there is no drop off.

Yep, seems the dropoffs are all around them.  Like, off of a cliff.

(12-05-2018, 03:18 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Drop off?
Carlos Dunlap only had 8.0 sacks in 2016 and 7.5 sacks last year.
He is currently at 7.0 this year with 4 games left. He's actually on pace to outperform himself from the past two years.
Atkins only had 9.0 sacks each in 2016 and 2017.
He's also currently at 7.0 this year with 4 games left. He's also on pace to outperform himself from the past two years.

So no, there is no drop off.

Like someone else said there are more ways to rate a dl player than sacks. I wonder if any of the other posters even watch the games this year and compare them to last (contract) year.

(12-05-2018, 03:30 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Like someone else said there are more ways to rate a dl player than sacks. I wonder if any of the other posters even watch the games this year and compare them to last (contract) year.

I watch them all.  In the contract year, much like the very beginning of this season, other players were generating push and pressure too.  Lawson was a rookie sensation, Chris Smith played well, the LBs weren't Hardy Nickerson, a year older Vinnie Rey, and Jordan Evans behind them for a bulk of the season....and Burfict was playing better.  Glasgow was highly underrated this season, and Lawson was getting pressure (not sacks), which pushed QBs to Geno or Dunlap.  Now, to me anyways, it seems offenses are just scheming those two out of the game.  Hubbard had some nice plays early on, but you gotta wonder if the added snaps due to so many injuries aren't taking a toll on the rook this deep into the season. Right now, there are no complementary pieces to them.

Dunlap was a good deal because of his production and he is in the prime of his career.

Geno on the other hand only time will tell if that was a good deal extending him four years starting in 2019 when he will be 31 years old. It is the highest contract for any player over 30 years old that isn't a quarterback. Personally I think a 2 year extension would have been better for the team.

That said, this is one of the least of the team's problems going forward in the next few years imo.

(12-05-2018, 02:59 PM)ochocincos Wrote: When I say they've done a good job, I mean those two individuals specifically. You are taking the whole collection of guys as the whole defense and saying it's Dunlap's and Atkins' responsibility for being last? Because if so, I disagree. Just because you are paid the most on the team doesn't mean you should be responsible for the whole unit performing well.

I mean, they've also disappeared for some games. The last two games Geno has 3 assisted tackles. Dunlap has 7. Not saying they're bad, but they also deserve some criticism for disappearing when the D desperately needs them to step up.

Edit: I'm not saying they're not worth it or anything like that. Probably just me being a whiny asshole.

(12-05-2018, 03:27 PM)Wyche Wrote: Yep, seems the dropoffs are all around them.  Like, off of a cliff.

Exactly. 
Lawson had 8.5 sacks last year and only got 1.0 before he got hurt early this year. Neither MJ, Willis, nor Hubbard have stepped up into those shoes to be that dynamic pass rusher opposite of Dunlap.
Your leading tacklers are Jessie Bates (87) and Shawn Williams (83). Typically, it's the LBs that lead a team in tackles (by far). The highest LB is at 58 tackles, and that's Jordan Evans. Vontaze Burfict only has 31 combined tackles in six games. That would equate to not even 83 tackles over the course of 16 games. That's terrible.
When it comes to coverage, no one even has double-digit PDs yet. The highest LB (Preston Brown) only has 4 PDs and he only played 7 games. And for INTs, it's really bad. Williams and Bates have 7 INTs between them but no CB has an INT. The only LBs to have an INT are Brown (2) and Evans (1). The only other player who has an INT besides those four players is Michael Johnson (1).

(12-05-2018, 03:37 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: I mean, they've also disappeared for some games. The last two games Geno has 3 assisted tackles. Dunlap has 7. Not saying they're bad, but they also deserve some criticism for disappearing when the D desperately needs them to step up.

Edit: I'm not saying they're not worth it or anything like that. Probably just me being a whiny asshole.

Teams are game planning against them. Geno gets a double team inside and either the play goes away from Dunlap or he gets doubled, chipped, or just a quick throw.

(12-05-2018, 03:38 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Exactly. 
Lawson had 8.5 sacks last year and only got 1.0 before he got hurt early this year. Neither MJ, Willis, nor Hubbard have stepped up into those shoes to be that dynamic pass rusher opposite of Dunlap.
Your leading tacklers are Jessie Bates (87) and Shawn Williams (83). Typically, it's the LBs that lead a team in tackles (by far). The highest LB is at 58 tackles, and that's Jordan Evans. Vontaze Burfict only has 31 combined tackles in six games. That would equate to not even 83 tackles over the course of 16 games. That's terrible.
When it comes to coverage, no one even has double-digit PDs yet. The highest LB (Preston Brown) only has 4 PDs and he only played 7 games. And for INTs, it's really bad. Williams and Bates have 7 INTs between them but no CB has an INT. The only LBs to have an INT are Brown (2) and Evans (1). The only other player who has an INT besides those four players is Michael Johnson (1).

That says a lot about the defense it's not just one safety leading the team in tackles but both...

(12-05-2018, 03:38 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Exactly. 
Lawson had 8.5 sacks last year and only got 1.0 before he got hurt early this year. Neither MJ, Willis, nor Hubbard have stepped up into those shoes to be that dynamic pass rusher opposite of Dunlap.
Your leading tacklers are Jessie Bates (87) and Shawn Williams (83). Typically, it's the LBs that lead a team in tackles (by far). The highest LB is at 58 tackles, and that's Jordan Evans. Vontaze Burfict only has 31 combined tackles in six games. That would equate to not even 83 tackles over the course of 16 games. That's terrible.
When it comes to coverage, no one even has double-digit PDs yet. The highest LB (Preston Brown) only has 4 PDs and he only played 7 games. And for INTs, it's really bad. Williams and Bates have 7 INTs between them but no CB has an INT. The only LBs to have an INT are Brown (2) and Evans (1). The only other player who has an INT besides those four players is Michael Johnson (1).

Damn bro.....those are some eye opening numbers when you see them all laid out like that.  Wow.

(12-05-2018, 03:18 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Drop off?
Carlos Dunlap only had 8.0 sacks in 2016 and 7.5 sacks last year.
He is currently at 7.0 this year with 4 games left. He's actually on pace to outperform himself from the past two years.
Atkins only had 9.0 sacks each in 2016 and 2017.
He's also currently at 7.0 this year with 4 games left. He's also on pace to outperform himself from the past two years.

So no, there is no drop off.

No drop off??? Geno has one sack on the last seven games. Dunlap has zero in the last four. Btw the Bengals are 1-6 in that span. Coincidence? IDTS

(12-05-2018, 10:41 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: This offseason the front office spent big money on Atkins and Dunlap. Total 2018 salary is 28 million. With 14 sacks between them it comes to 2 million /sack thru 12 games. While seven sacks isn't really that bad the lack of push by the d-line has left the back seven exposed. Were the Bengals right to gamble on these aging linemen. They played great last year putting pressure constantly on opposing offenses but have disappeared in most game this year. The cost goes down as the contract ages but so do these players.

It's a mess, but re-signing Dunlap and Atkins was not a wrong move and I don't believe these two are what is wrong with the defense. There's been a systematic breakdown on the back 7 for most of the year. Burfict doesn't seem to care anymore and Adam Jones, who was a leader in the secondary is gone.

Plus Marv has lost the locker room. I think that's pretty much a certainty at this point.

(12-05-2018, 03:30 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Like someone else said there are more ways to rate a dl player than sacks. I wonder if any of the other posters even watch the games this year and compare them to last (contract) year.

You were the one who brought up sacks, so I focused on sacks. I could look up the other stats to show you but that's more your responsibility to prove your point. You simply made a statement without any evidence to back it up.

(12-05-2018, 03:37 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: I mean, they've also disappeared for some games. The last two games Geno has 3 assisted tackles. Dunlap has 7. Not saying they're bad, but they also deserve some criticism for disappearing when the D desperately needs them to step up.

Edit: I'm not saying they're not worth it or anything like that. Probably just me being a whiny asshole.

You know, I think herein lies the problem. People here are watching every minute of every game of the Bengals, so those parts of games or single games specifically are noticed when a player doesn't perform well. However, people here aren't watching, for example, every minute of every game of Khalil Mack, JJ Watt, Aaron Donald, etc. I'm sure there are periods of games and full individual games specifically where each of these guys had a less-than-stellar stat line.

(12-05-2018, 03:38 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Exactly. 
Lawson had 8.5 sacks last year and only got 1.0 before he got hurt early this year. Neither MJ, Willis, nor Hubbard have stepped up into those shoes to be that dynamic pass rusher opposite of Dunlap.
Your leading tacklers are Jessie Bates (87) and Shawn Williams (83). Typically, it's the LBs that lead a team in tackles (by far). The highest LB is at 58 tackles, and that's Jordan Evans. Vontaze Burfict only has 31 combined tackles in six games. That would equate to not even 83 tackles over the course of 16 games. That's terrible.
When it comes to coverage, no one even has double-digit PDs yet. The highest LB (Preston Brown) only has 4 PDs and he only played 7 games. And for INTs, it's really bad. Williams and Bates have 7 INTs between them but no CB has an INT. The only LBs to have an INT are Brown (2) and Evans (1). The only other player who has an INT besides those four players is Michael Johnson (1).

The change was with the DC and scheme and it was allowed to be broken and continue to be broken and is still broken. Marv loves himself some Austin.

(12-05-2018, 03:54 PM)BengalChris Wrote: The change was with the DC and scheme and it was allowed to be broken and continue to be broken and is still broken. Marv loves himself some Austin.

That scheme may work if you can guarantee turnovers but they weren’t getting turnovers.


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