(12-10-2018, 02:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Right, because saying that one group will end up in traction while the other group will be fine is in NO WAY saying one is superior to the other.



Oh, wait, I forgot I was supposed to ignore what he actually said and instead accept some vague "general meaning" from the "overall context" of his post that fits with your perspective.

Yes my friend; overall context is a rather important element when looking to decipher what the person actually meant rather than what you simply inferred based on your own beliefs. Examining the larger picture helps you avoid focusing on key words that prompt reactions in a limited scope.

It seems you are struggling with the concepts of proper argumentation. I don't mean that in an derogatory manner. Just stating what has been demonstrated through our exchanges thus far. You seem to routinely focus on that which lines up with your personal notions, instead of allowing for that which seems more likely the case; even if contrary to your position.

(12-10-2018, 02:46 PM)2MinutesHate Wrote: You know it's bad when after 16 years, the fans still can't conclude whether or not the head coach is the problem due to the GM/Owner, vice-versa, or both. 

Also, the reference to the passing of Mike Brown underlines how hopeless the fan base feels as they believe a death has to occur before things can improve.  That could possibly be a poll question.  

Q: If Mike Brown were to pass away, how would you feel about the Bengals chances next season?
1. More hopeful
2. Less hopeful
3. No opinion

If someone had to die for us to get better I would rather keep Marvin and MB and not win another playoff game for another twenty five years. This is a game, nothing more. I like to vent as well as the next disgruntled fan but there has to be a line you don't cross even if that line is only in your mind.

(12-10-2018, 02:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: He condemned and belittled my beliefs by suggesting they would cause so much damage that I would be in traction while he would be fine.

But somehow that gets erased by the "overall concept" that you chose to see.

If you are referring to this comment in his original post -- "Remember this moment and you won't be in traction this time next year because you know its coming" -- then you are once again making a misguided and somewhat dishonest assertion.

His comment appears to be a general opinion statement derived from his particular outlook, not targeted at any one one individual, yet you seemingly have taken personal offense based on the parts of your quote in bold. 

(12-10-2018, 02:59 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Yes my friend; overall context is a rather important element when looking to decipher what the person actually meant rather than what you simply inferred based on your own beliefs. Examining the larger picture helps you avoid focusing on key words that prompt reactions in a limited scope.

It seems you are struggling with the concepts of proper argumentation. I don't mean that in an derogatory manner. Just stating what has been demonstrated through our exchanges thus far. You seem to routinely focus on that which lines up with your personal notions, instead of allowing for that which seems more likely the case; even if contrary to your position.

Actually you are the one struggling with the concepts of proper argument.

Words and statements have clear meanings.  In this case you want to ignore clear meanings so that you can shift and mold some nebulous "overall concept" to fit your meaning.  But that is not the way it works.  You can't define meaning based just on what you want it to mean.

My job requires me to make arguments.  I would get laughed at if I suggested we ignore the plain meaning of direct quotes just because I want the statement to mean something else to me.

(12-10-2018, 03:31 PM)fredtoa Wrote: My job requires me to make arguments. 

Whoever hired you should have gotten world wide HR person of the year.

(12-10-2018, 03:19 PM)Lucidus Wrote: His comment appears to be a general opinion statement derived from his particular outlook, not targeted at any one one individual, yet you seemingly have taken personal offense based on the parts of your quote in bold. 

His comments were directed at fans who were not as smart as him.  Who cares if it was not aimed at me personally?  I still fall in the group that will end up "in traction" because of my beliefs. 

If you make a "general opinion statement" telling any group of people that their beliefs are wrong and dangerous then individuals in that group are entitled to feel offended.

(12-10-2018, 03:36 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Whoever hired you should have gotten world wide HR person of the year.

I am self employed.

(12-10-2018, 03:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: His comments were directed at fans who were not as smart as him.  Who cares if it was not aimed at me personally?  I still fall in the group that will end up "in traction" because of my beliefs. 

If you make a "general opinion statement" telling any group of people that their beliefs are wrong and dangerous then individuals in that group are entitled to feel offended.

Indeed, you are free to be "offended" as often as you like and in whatever fashion you like. Furthermore, you can complain or be critical about the things that offend you as much as you wish -- which you have done multiple times in this thread. You see my friend, you have that right, just as those who complain and / or are critical about the Bengals -- or optimism as it relates to the Bengals -- have the same right. 

(12-10-2018, 04:47 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Indeed, you are free to be "offended" as often as you like and in whatever fashion you like.

(12-10-2018, 03:19 PM)Lucidus Wrote: If you are referring to this comment in his original post -- "Remember this moment and you won't be in traction this time next year because you know its coming" -- then you are once again making a misguided and somewhat dishonest assertion.

So I "have the right" to do it, but it makes me either a liar or "misguided"

How gracious of you to give me that right, good sir.  In return I shall also grant you a great favor.  You now have the right to completely fail in your attempts to discredit my position by ignoring the clear meaning of a direct quote and instead fabricating a "general opinion statement" to support your opinion. 

You are welcome.

(12-10-2018, 03:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually you are the one struggling with the concepts of proper argument.

Words and statements have clear meanings.  In this case you want to ignore clear meanings so that you can shift and mold some nebulous "overall concept" to fit your meaning.  But that is not the way it works.  You can't define meaning based just on what you want it to mean.

My job requires me to make arguments.  I would get laughed at if I suggested we ignore the plain meaning of direct quotes just because I want the statement to mean something else to me.

This post is dripping with irony sir. I'm not sure if you're doing this on purpose or if you truly don't realize that you're constantly parsing, twisting, contorting and exaggerating the words of others in order to line up neatly with a narrative that you have created for them. If it's the former, then you are the most dishonest category of poster. If it's the latter, then perhaps you need to re-examine your style closely.

As to your second sentence, I sincerely hope this is not the case, but if it is -- I must question both your effectiveness and the standards required. The arguments that I've seen you demonstrate in multiple posts, in multiple threads, are extraordinarily fallacious, severely lacking in sound premises and usually profoundly short on the honest examination of intent.

If, as you say, it is your job to present arguments, then you should be well aware that to truly find the meaning of a "direct quote" -- the examination of said quote must be evaluated in the overall context of a conversation, for the sake of intention and comparison. To state otherwise is rather an odd assertion, to say the least.

I apologize to those that might be reading this thread and would rather not see a prolonged discussion about the merits or problems with certain argumentation styles or the examination of the importance of context.

I feel I have stated my thoughts adequately and I'll try to revert back to a more Bengals related discussion.

Again, my apologies.

(12-10-2018, 05:16 PM)Lucidus Wrote: I'm not sure if you're doing this on purpose or if you truly don't realize that you're constantly parsing, twisting, contorting and exaggerating the words of others in order to line up neatly with a narrative that you have created for them.

No I am not.  I am using direct quotes to prove my point.  You are the one ignoring direct quotes in order to create a "general statement".

(12-10-2018, 05:16 PM)Lucidus Wrote: As to your second sentence, I sincerely hope this is not the case, but if it is -- I must question both your effectiveness or the standards required. The arguments that I've seen you demonstrate in multiple posts, in multiple threads, are extraordinarily fallacious, severely lacking in sound premises and usually profoundly short on the honest examination of intent.

This is not true at all.  You said the exact same thing about my post in this thread, but I have used direct quotes with clear meaning that show my position is correct.  All you have done is attempt to create a false narrative using "overall context" that does not exist.  If you see all of these other flawed arguments in other threads why have you never once commented on them?

(12-10-2018, 05:16 PM)Lucidus Wrote: If, as you say, it is your job to present arguments, then you should be well aware that to truly find the meaning of a "direct quote" -- the examination of said quote must be evaluated in the overall context of a conversation, for the sake of context and comparison. To state otherwise is rather an odd assertion, to say the least.

The problem is that the "overall context" of the OP by Godfather supports my position.  From the very first sentence he implies that people who are optimistic are ignorant, but that he is smarter than that.  He then finishes with a claim that anyone who is optimistic will "end up in traction".  There is absolutely nothing in the "overall context" of his post that was not insulting and belittling to people who are optimistic about the Bengals.
 

You guys who want to comment on each other's style of posting etc need to take it offline. Personal comments are not welcome, just in case you're wondering why the thread was shut down.