(12-19-2018, 04:34 PM)The Caped Crusader Wrote: Also, Driskel has been sacked 9 times already. I definitely think we are overrating the kid's athleticism.

That happens all the time. A vet QB is out and people think a more athletic QB will avoid pressure without taking into account that he can't read a defense, scan his progressions, or throw a timing route like the old slow guy can.

(12-19-2018, 04:53 PM)SladeX Wrote: Here is a brain fart.
Why even have an alpha QB. Just carry 4 or 5 Driskels, dime a dozen, and build a read option ish offense. Just make sure he isn't noodle armed. When he gets hurt, plug the next one in.

Because none of them are dynamic enough runners to be real threats like a Lamar Jackson or a Mike Vick. Those guys can get away with running a lot, but they risk injury. You don't find 4 or 5 of those guys on the street. If you can't throw and your not that dynamic it doesn't work. When they shut down RG3 running you really quickly saw this doesn't work lol.

(12-19-2018, 05:32 PM)Au165 Wrote: Because none of them are dynamic enough runners to be real threats like a Lamar Jackson or a Mike Vick. Those guys can get away with running a lot, but they risk injury. You don't find 4 or 5 of those guys on the street. If you can't throw and your not that dynamic it doesn't work. When they shut down RG3 running you really quickly saw this doesn't work lol.

I really don't think Jackson will survive if they continue to run him. We seen what happened to RG3 its not like he is built like Cam.

(12-19-2018, 06:26 PM)mon4078 Wrote: I really don't think Jackson will survive if they continue to run him. We seen what happened to RG3 its not like he is built like Cam.

I agree, that’s why I said there aren’t enough interchangeable guys to back him up to build a scheme around the QB running.

There are lots of fast, athletic QBs coming out of college every year, but guys like Jackson and Vick are on another level. They have the same "field vision" and natural instincts that separate great RBs from fast RBs.

Driskel is fast, but he is not a great runner like Jackson or Vick.

(12-19-2018, 12:29 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I get it, you and Nicomo and others are right, Andy does his share of dumbshit things, but so does the whole team. In all our playoffs games, going from memory here, I don't remember 1 player stepping up and playing lights out. Maybe Burfict in 2015 but we still lost by some dumbshit stuff.

'09 Ced Benson and '13 Marvin Jones are the only guys that i can recall off the top of my head who balled out and didn't do anything stupid to counteract it. But...did a lot of marvs yards come at the end of the game? I can't recall.

(12-18-2018, 12:20 AM)fredtoast Wrote: TDs should still count in the evaluation of deep passes.  It may be that a defense is willing to give up a deep pass as long as it is not a td.  Or a pass that hits a receiver in stride allowing him to score is better than one the player has to dive for and can not score.

You scream bloody murder over a QB getting an extra 30% increase in passer rating for throwing a deep td instead of a deep non-td, but you don't have any problem at all with a QB getting a 300% increase on a 16 yard completion based on subjective BS like how close a defender was or if a receiver had to move his hand 6 inches to catch it instead of 10 inches.

That is ridiculous.

I don't like the qb rating because its off 10 times more than it should be. 

On a 50 yard throw for a TD and a 50 yard throw to the one yard line you get

158 to 118 ratings.  30% difference in ratings. 
7 - 6.8              3% difference in points produced. 
30% / 3% is a 10 times difference. 

Way to only talk about the 30% part and intentionally ignore the other part about the points produced from the throw 3%.

300% compared to what. Should it be 100% ? If so its only off by 3 fold .

If this is true this makes the brickwallblitzs formula more accurate than the qb rating . Keep manipulating the data and try again.  

(12-18-2018, 12:30 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Still BS.  

"My logic is only wrong half the time, so that means it is still valid. Derp."


BTW if you just look at the last 4 seasons with no playoff games Dalton ranked in the top half of the league half of the time. (2 of 4)

Daltons qb rating in the playoffs has averaged around 55. There is no way that all of that is due to him playing defenses that are as good as the 85 bears. A small amount possibly. 
 
You do know he played the same teams in the playoffs during the regular season 3 out of 4 times. 

Should I add 10 ratings points for all games played against playoffs teams both during the season and playoffs?

What about all the other qb's? Should I add 10 ratings points for all games played against playoff teams during the season and playoffs? 

I'll bet there's several qb's that faced more top 10 defenses , whose own team never made the playoffs, than Dalton did in each of the 4 years he made the playoffs. should all the hard done by qb's get a ratings boost ?

You get yourself into a mess when you start using that kind of rating boost to compensate for harder defenses in the playoffs

Just adding the playoff games and regular season ratings into one rating is the simplest, easiest and most fair way to do it. 


QB RANKINGS SEASON AND PLAYOFF GAMES COMBINED

1 EXCELLENT SEASON  2   NO PLAYOFF GAMES

4 AVERAGE SEASONS 15 17 17 17  TWO PLAYOFF GAMES

3 BELOW AVERAGE SEASONS 25 25 22  TWO PLAYOFF GAMES

To even say Dalton is average is not true. When playoff games are included he's below average. 

Quite frankly,  they should have counted playoff games twice because they are at least twice as important as regular season games. This would have dropped his rankings even more than this.
 
All you do is keep changing your complaints and squeal I'm either making things up, its bias or unfair. 

Stop trying to weasel out of the argument by bringing up Dalton facing a harder defense in ONE GAME he played in the playoffs.

You believe a small thing like including a SINGLE playoff game with the seasons games is outrageously unfair, yet a huge thing like excluding basically half of the top qb's in the league is totally fair, nice logic with that.

(12-18-2018, 01:50 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: There's no doubt. You're definitely just trolling. 

Only Brown has more yards and td's. 

Jones has about 1500 more yards. Green 14 more TD's.  thats about even.

Hopkins and Beckham haven't played all 8 years. Theyre on pace to put up similar yards and td's as Green in 8 seasons.  

Just totally off base and not true at all to say that Green is as good as any wide receiver the last 8 years. Just put down the pipe.

(12-18-2018, 02:05 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Look. You can't argue with his rock-solid reasoning. Dalton won't play into his late 30s because he's a QB that sits in the pocket and doesn't take many hits and has only been injured twice when he wrenched his thumb against a couple big dudes that he came into contact with. 

AJ Green will play into his late 30s because he's a WR that gets hit a hell of a lot more than a QB does and he will have missed 13 games in the last 3 seasons due to injuries.

Don't you know that QBs rarely play into their late 30s while WRs do it regularly? 

I said Dalton has a few seasons before he declines, that means around 4 seasons, That would put him at mid thirties. 

I said Green has 5 more years before he declines, that would put him mid thirties. Green is a year younger than Dalton

THAT MEANS, I CLAIMED , THEY WILL BOTH START DECLINING BY MID THIRTIES LIKE 90% OF ALL PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES

Not every athlete plays at a high level until their 40. That's an exception, not the rule.

I didn't say they would retire at that age, I said they would start to decline at that age. I never even mentioned injuries.  That being said lets look at your insane comment that Green takes more punishment. 

Green takes hits from 200 lb corners while Dalton is sacked by 300 pound defensive lineman.
 
HERES A STUDY BY BROWN UNIVERSITY ON WHO TAKES THE BIGGEST HITS IN FOOTBALL.

https://news.brown.edu/articles/2011/09/headblows

On average, running backs had the highest 36.1, followed by quarterbacks 34.5. I'm going to believe an internet troll or a study by Brown university with people who have phd's in medicine.

I guess you would counter argue with Dalton being exceptional at evading big hits because of his special rolling with the hits capabilities.  He's perfected the ability to roll on contact and absorbs the force better than any other qb in the history of the game.  You live in some kind of twilight zone or something.

Just because Dalton has not been injured for a lot of games doesn't mean those hits from sacks aren't taking they're toll on him; Every qb, whether it's Dalton or some other qb, feels the force of those impact's; How many games missed due to injury is not the only thing to measure how much damage a qb has taken.

(12-18-2018, 03:38 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: In the last 8 years there are 61 QBs who have thrown the ball at least 500 times. 

Since you said starters and not backups, if you count 8 games per year X number of years the QB has been in the league, the qualifying QBs drops to 35 who have played the last 8 years, thrown the ball at least 500 times and have started an average of 8 games per year X number of years in the league. Dalton's rankings under those qualifications are:

Attempts - 9th of 35 that qualify
Completions - 10th of 35 that qualify
Completion%- 26th with 4 non-qualifiers ahead of him. 22nd out of 35 that qualify
Yards - 10th of 35 that qualify
Yards per attempt - 27th with 4 non-qualifiers ahead of him. 23rd out of 35 that qualify
TDs - 10th of 35 that qualify
Interceptions - 56th with 26 non-qualifiers ahead of him. 30th out of 35 that qualify
QB Rating - 24th with 1 non-qualifier ahead of him. 23rd out of 35 that qualify

So, while he is top 10 in that time in Attempts, Completions, Yards and TDs, as i said in 2013, the thing that keeps him near the bottom 3rd in rating is his lower Completion%, Yards per Attempt and number of Interceptions.

All of that just to say, Driskel is not even as "good" as Dalton has been. 

Why use all those stats when they're used inside the qb rating itself. That's just useless information. The qb rating algorithm uses all those stats and outputs a single rating.

Your numbers show Dalton 23 out of 35 in qb rating. That's below average like I've said. So your stat agrees with me that Dalton is below average, yet you claim everything I have said is unfounded and completely untrue.  
 
You agree with me and don't agree me. Nice one dunning krueger, very logical.  

(12-18-2018, 01:50 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: There's no doubt. You're definitely just trolling. 

He's a rookie. get over it. Why don't you count his college years as well. He was learning how to play and develop his skills.  

Brett favre said in an interview he learned zero his first year with the falcons. He'd go to team meetings and not pay attention. He'd leave as soon as he could to go drink and party. 

Driskel admitted not having thrown to Green during any practices. Back up qbs get limited throws in practice and never to first team players. I'll bet Driskel was learning a lot throwing to Cody Core on the sidelines during practices. 

(12-17-2018, 10:57 PM)Wyche Wrote: Damn...3 QBs? What's that gonna cost?  Seriously man, I haven't seen this much tap dancing since Danny ****ing Kaye. There are no QBs I'd draft this year in the 1st, period. 

Dalton's family? Naw....I just see a bunch of OBJECTIVE counterpoints in this debate WITH STATS AND SOURCES to back them, and you have none. I seriously hope this is just an epic troll job on your part, if so, kudos. 

QB RANKINGS SEASON AND PLAYOFF GAMES COMBINED

1 EXCELLENT SEASON  2   NO PLAYOFF GAMES

4 AVERAGE SEASONS 15 17 17 17  TWO PLAYOFF GAMES

3 BELOW AVERAGE SEASONS 25 25 22  TWO PLAYOFF GAMES

Verifiable stats to back up the claims Wilbur 

I guess you must have honed that superior common sense from chasing your favorite pig Matilda around the pig farm
 
I didn't say you have to be a phd to post about sports but at least you should have made it out of high school. 

I'm no Eugene Felnic and have way more common sense than you'll ever have, nice try Wilbur.  

Show that Dalton is a top 10 qb , WITH  STATS THAT COMBINE SEASON AND PLAYOFF QB RATINGS , or stop talking about it.

(12-18-2018, 08:41 AM)Wyche Wrote: Didn't you say earlier in this thread that media types were biased against the Bengals? I guess not when it comes to the QB? 

We get it mullsy....you hate the QB.

PFF and football outsiders are analytics sites, not sports media sites. They use fair unbiased formulas to calculate players ratings.  Way to nitpick line an old granny on meaningless things like whether analytics sites count as sports media when you know they don't.  Now go give Matilda the attention she deserves

(12-20-2018, 05:33 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote: PFF and football outsiders are analytics sites, not sports media sites. They use fair unbiased formulas to calculate players ratings.  Way to nitpick line an old granny on meaningless things like whether analytics sites count as sports media when you know they don't.  Now go give Matilda the attention she deserves

Haha, no.

Outsiders maybe, PFF? Not anymore.

Didn't you get the hint during your suspension?

Andy is significantly better than anyone on our roster and is top half in the league at his position.

Sit down and stop it and thanks a lot for turning a Driskel conversation into another, "Andy Thread."

Jesus Christ.

(12-19-2018, 04:01 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Another negative loser...

Appreciate the compliment! Or another realist. What exactly has this team shown that makes you believe that after 3 consecutive years of no playoffs they can get there next year? The core group of AJ, Geno, and Dunlap will all be 30+ years old before start of next season. Not that they can't be productive at 30+, but that's typically the age where you start to see a drop off in production except at the QB and offensive line positions. Kirkpatrick will turn 30 during the season. Will they resign Dennard? Does he even want to be here? The offensive line is still obviously an issue. Glenn has not been what they thought he would be. Hart is terrible. Price has had some moments but has struggled at times. Redmond can't get out of his own way.

I just see way too many holes on this team to win more than 4-6 games next year. Yes, injuries have decimated the team this year. Yes, they started 4-1, but was that really that impressive? First game for Andrew Luck in nearly 2 years, and they were still driving for game-winning TD when Doyle coughed it up. Beat a very average Miami team at home where the offense didn't play well at all. Beat a bad Atlanta team in the last seconds. Definitely played their best game of the season in the Thursday night win over Baltimore.

I hope I'm wrong, but I think they are the worst team in the division next year. They are still trying to recover from bad 1st and 2nd round recent draft picks. We know they won't be very active in free agency. How do all the holes get filled? I'll gladly eat crow if I'm wrong.

(12-20-2018, 05:06 AM)wolverine515 Wrote: 158 to 118 ratings.  30% difference in ratings. 
7 - 6.8              3% difference in points produced. 
30% / 3% is a 10 times difference. 



300% compared to what. Should it be 100% ? If so its only off by 3 fold

A 50 yd completion that is not a td does not produce any points at all.


16 yd completion worth 1 point. 16 yard completion when defender 1 yd closer and receiver moves hands 10 inches instead of 6 inches worth 3 points. 300% increase.

(12-20-2018, 05:21 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Brett favre said in an interview he learned zero his first year with the falcons. He'd go to team meetings and not pay attention. He'd leave as soon as he could to go drink.

Whay does this have to do with driskel?  Do you have any proof that he has been behaving like this for the last 3 yesrs?

(12-19-2018, 05:05 PM)Nately120 Wrote: That happens all the time. A vet QB is out and people think a more athletic QB will avoid pressure without taking into account that he can't read a defense, scan his progressions, or throw a timing route like the old slow guy can.

Game speed is much faster than practice speed or college speed.

(12-20-2018, 05:27 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote: QB RANKINGS SEASON AND PLAYOFF GAMES COMBINED

1 EXCELLENT SEASON  2   NO PLAYOFF GAMES

4 AVERAGE SEASONS 15 17 17 17  TWO PLAYOFF GAMES

3 BELOW AVERAGE SEASONS 25 25 22  TWO PLAYOFF GAMES

Verifiable stats to back up the claims Wilbur 

I guess you must have honed that superior common sense from chasing your favorite pig Matilda around the pig farm
 
I didn't say you have to be a phd to post about sports but at least you should have made it out of high school. 

I'm no Eugene Felnic and have way more common sense than you'll ever have, nice try Wilbur.  

Show that Dalton is a top 10 qb , WITH  STATS THAT COMBINE SEASON AND PLAYOFF QB RATINGS , or stop talking about it.

LMAO.....except no one was arguing the playoff stats, at least I wasn't.

Never lived on a farm....so another good inference on your part.  I attended "university", so what?  Also attended hard knocks high, learn to fix your own shit if you don't have the money U, and how to hustle when need be college.  Don't need to tout any accolades to you or anyone else.  I'm not that one that acts like a petulant child, hurling perceived insults around over a silly sports debate on a message board.

Also, Eugene, link to where I EVER said Dalton was a top 10 QB....I graded him in this very thread.  See if you can find it, genius.