(12-29-2018, 01:01 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You nailed it: Toxic Organizational Culture.

With a heavy contribution from pessimistic fans who claim every small setback as the wheels falling of again.

(12-29-2018, 04:36 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Well said. It doesn't take long for a player to feel like he landed in a bad situation. The atmosphere in the locker room will help develop a negative opinion.

This can be true in any occupation.

At least the Bengals did change culture with certain players but then regressed with them.

As much as some people loathe Chad and Carson they brought a new atmosphere to the group.

When that soured then came Dalton and Green. 

We may just be approaching the end to this life span as well.

With a certain kind of logic, if you change the leadership faces of the team, you just might stir up the locker room enough to instill new hope.

Risky yes, but could be a lazy way to breathe new life into the team and Marvin's career.

Just a crazy and scary thought that would keep Lewis here even longer.

(12-29-2018, 02:31 PM)McC Wrote: I'm not sure the Browns are, despite your obvious love for them.  Did they even beat anybody with a winning record?

They beat the Ravens 12-9 with Hue Jackson as head coach. Steelers are not making the playoffs. The Ravens will make it and probably not win a game. This division stinks this year.

If you put this same Browns team in the AFC North in 2014 when 3 teams made the playoffs, the Browns would have been lucky to win 2 games that year. That is even with future hall of famer Baker Mayfield at QB.

(12-29-2018, 04:39 PM)Beaker Wrote: With a heavy contribution from pessimistic fans who claim every small setback as the wheels falling of again.

People just don't get that the fans are also a part of the toxic culture.  

If I was an NFL player set to become a FA and played in one of the many games in PBS where the Bengals were having a good season and there's a ton of empty seats, I sure as hell wouldn't want to play here.  I would understand if the fans wouldn't show up to support a bad team, like this year.  However, when you can't even fill the stadium in good years, I would have conclude that either the fans don't care or they're a bunch of negative losers waiting for something bad to happen.  

The Browns fans lost their team and have been way worse than us since their return, but give them credit, they show up with hope every year.  We dwell on past failures and actively ridicule other fans for being positive.  We've become just as toxic as the organization.  

The Bengals need to make changes to change the culture.  Question is, will we change with it?

(12-29-2018, 05:30 PM)Whatever Wrote: People just don't get that the fans are also a part of the toxic culture.  

If I was an NFL player set to become a FA and played in one of the many games in PBS where the Bengals were having a good season and there's a ton of empty seats, I sure as hell wouldn't want to play here.  I would understand if the fans wouldn't show up to support a bad team, like this year.  However, when you can't even fill the stadium in good years, I would have conclude that either the fans don't care or they're a bunch of negative losers waiting for something bad to happen.  

The Browns fans lost their team and have been way worse than us since their return, but give them credit, they show up with hope every year.  We dwell on past failures and actively ridicule other fans for being positive.  We've become just as toxic as the organization.  

The Bengals need to make changes to change the culture.  Question is, will we change with it?

The patience of the fans of this team playing in a stadium funded by taxpayers money is beyond the realm of sanity.

Just because franchises like the Browns and Lions exists don't give the ownership a pass.

If anyone being a fan, player, media or onlooker can't see that... they're an idiot.

I honestly feel the biggest issue hindering this franchise is the lack of taking a risk. You throw big money ar a free agent and they will play for you no matter how the team plays (like Jarvis Landry in Cleveland). But Mikey is too tight to spend money like that on a free agent. This year we are primed to spend a lot in free agency, especially if we cut Burfict and trade/cut Kirkpatrick. Add in Nickerson (please Lord,please!) and that would give us over 68 million to spend in the off season. Any buffoon with a checkbook could drastically change this organization with that amount of money. But Mikey will extend Green and Dalton past their primes and say we have no money for tier 1 free agents like KJ Wright.

(12-29-2018, 12:55 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Year in, year out the roster under goes change with draft and free agents. Obviously the core players remain.
but its really even in the best of times the results are the same. 1st RD playoff exit for whatever reason.

but look the AFC teams that have gone to the Super Bowl in the last 15 years....Pats Steelers Colts etc
very strong traditions.
now look at the Bengals since Lewis took over. handful of North titles. thats it.

so when the Bengals draft a player or sign a free agent.....WHATS THE SELLING POINT?
yes the Bengals draft some great talents....most players they draft are still in the NFL going back 5 years I think.

but these players they draft. Do they have that extra something to really change the culture or are they just talented
yes but when it comes time to get to the next level......they fold.
the free agents they sign. are they just happy to extend their career and thats that?
yeah they wanna start and play well but their drive to change the landscape is non existant.

when a player from USC or Texas Tech (example only) goes to the Pats or Steelers..they have a tradition to uphold.
wheres that in Cincy for a 21 year old DB from Western Michigan to embrace?

Ive seen alot players wear the Stripes. I just dont know how many were really ready to try to take this team to the next level.

(12-29-2018, 01:01 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You nailed it: Toxic Organizational Culture.

It's not the players fault though. Culture of any company is set by upper management. Look how many players from Carson Palmer to Carl Pickens to Corey Dillon wanted out because they realized management was the issue. We have guys from Georgia (a bunch), Alabama, Florida, Ohio State, etc...winning programs here.

What determines culture? Oh...well it's hard to preach accountability to the players when you have a GM who hasn't won a playoff game in 26+ years and a coach that's 0-7 in the playoffs. Or when your team melts down in a playoff game in epic fashion and you keep the coach, the LB, AND re-sign the Cornerback.

Or how do you say you're doing everything you can to win, and then also say that you can't sign free agents because it impacts compensatory picks?

I could go on and on and on. But keeping an 0-7 coach in the playoffs pretty much sets the bar really low. And bad culture infects the organization from practice to gameday.

I think i have came to the same conclusion years ago i just try and bury it in the back of my mind in order to
hope. I am naturally a positive dude and am just hoping Katie will be different once the torch is passed.

Troy maybe can talk Katie into hiring a GM that knows football and we can install a new culture of winning.

Yah never know. Me being positive again lol

(12-29-2018, 04:39 PM)Beaker Wrote: With a heavy contribution from pessimistic fans who claim every small setback as the wheels falling of again.

Yeah...it's the fans fault. It's Dillon. Pickens. Spikes. Chad Johnson. It's all their faults.

It couldn't possibly be the same management team who's been running the show since 1991 could it?

(12-29-2018, 07:21 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I think i have came to the same conclusion years ago i just try and bury it in the back of my mind in order to
hope. I am naturally a positive dude and am just hoping Katie will be different once the torch is passed.

Troy maybe can talk Katie into hiring a GM that knows football and we can install a new culture of winning.

Yah never know. Me being positive again lol

Let's hope, it's all we've got.

Mike Brown has done nothing to build the brand, build a winning tradition.

(12-29-2018, 05:30 PM)Whatever Wrote: People just don't get that the fans are also a part of the toxic culture.  

If I was an NFL player set to become a FA and played in one of the many games in PBS where the Bengals were having a good season and there's a ton of empty seats, I sure as hell wouldn't want to play here.  I would understand if the fans wouldn't show up to support a bad team, like this year.  However, when you can't even fill the stadium in good years, I would have conclude that either the fans don't care or they're a bunch of negative losers waiting for something bad to happen.  

The Browns fans lost their team and have been way worse than us since their return, but give them credit, they show up with hope every year.  We dwell on past failures and actively ridicule other fans for being positive.  We've become just as toxic as the organization.  

The Bengals need to make changes to change the culture.  Question is, will we change with it?

The actual years that we were good the fans should have showed up.

But, sadly the good years came after about what 15 subpar years? You alienate a fan base after you go through eras like the 90's.

It's hard to win fans back.

(12-29-2018, 05:50 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: The patience of the fans of this team playing in a stadium funded by taxpayers money is beyond the realm of sanity.

Just because franchises like the Browns and Lions exists don't give the ownership a pass.

If anyone being a fan, player, media or onlooker can't see that... they're an idiot.

Taxpayer funded stadiums were the standard when PBS was built.  It would be different if the current standard of privately funded stadiums was in place at that time.  Hamilton County broke the Riverfront lease when they fell behind on concession payments to the team, which gave Mike all the leverage he needed to get a taxpayer funded stadium before the tide turned.  The County built an insanely overpriced PoS stadium.  Look at other NFL stadiums built around that time.  Raymond James Stadium in Tampa was like $190 mil.  Baltimore's stadium was like $225 mil.  Cleveland's was around $275 mil.  PBS was $450 mil and is worse than all of those.  People keep using this as a rationale, but they should really be blaming the politicians.  They've broken the PBS lease on multiple occasions, too.

I'm not giving ownership a pass at all.  Mikey should step down.  Katie should hire a GM and clean house on the coaching staff.  Hiring a GM and replacing Marvin are the two biggest things they can do to change the culture.  My point was that we are part of the problem.  We are not the whole problem.

Do you think any player would read this board and be like "Yeah...I want to go there and do my best to win for those guys.  They're so entitled compared to other NFL fans because that stadium cost them a 1/2 cent on the dollar sales tax increase.  I think it's great that they won't show up to support me or the team even when we're playing well because they haven't won a playoff game in 20 some years.  I mean, the fact that they haven't isn't my fault, but somebody has to be the whipping boy for all those years of frustration and I'd love to be that guy!"?

You have to look at from outside the bubble of being a Bengals fan.  

(12-29-2018, 05:30 PM)Whatever Wrote: People just don't get that the fans are also a part of the toxic culture.  

If I was an NFL player set to become a FA and played in one of the many games in PBS where the Bengals were having a good season and there's a ton of empty seats, I sure as hell wouldn't want to play here.  I would understand if the fans wouldn't show up to support a bad team, like this year.  However, when you can't even fill the stadium in good years, I would have conclude that either the fans don't care or they're a bunch of negative losers waiting for something bad to happen.  

The Browns fans lost their team and have been way worse than us since their return, but give them credit, they show up with hope every year.  We dwell on past failures and actively ridicule other fans for being positive.  We've become just as toxic as the organization.  

The Bengals need to make changes to change the culture.  Question is, will we change with it?

The "toxic culture" is a direct result of a GM who hasn't won anything and continues to operate as he has since the day he took over. He's had the same HC in place for getting ready to be 17 years !!!! and he hasn't won anything either.

The fans are fed up and you can't blame them.

(12-29-2018, 07:47 PM)Whatever Wrote: Taxpayer funded stadiums were the standard when PBS was built.  It would be different if the current standard of privately funded stadiums was in place at that time.  Hamilton County broke the Riverfront lease when they fell behind on concession payments to the team, which gave Mike all the leverage he needed to get a taxpayer funded stadium before the tide turned.  The County built an insanely overpriced PoS stadium.  Look at other NFL stadiums built around that time.  Raymond James Stadium in Tampa was like $190 mil.  Baltimore's stadium was like $225 mil.  Cleveland's was around $275 mil.  PBS was $450 mil and is worse than all of those.  People keep using this as a rationale, but they should really be blaming the politicians.  They've broken the PBS lease on multiple occasions, too.

I'm not giving ownership a pass at all.  Mikey should step down.  Katie should hire a GM and clean house on the coaching staff.  Hiring a GM and replacing Marvin are the two biggest things they can do to change the culture.  My point was that we are part of the problem.  We are not the whole problem.

Do you think any player would read this board and be like "Yeah...I want to go there and do my best to win for those guys.  They're so entitled compared to other NFL fans because that stadium cost them a 1/2 cent on the dollar sales tax increase.  I think it's great that they won't show up to support me or the team even when we're playing well because they haven't won a playoff game in 20 some years.  I mean, the fact that they haven't isn't my fault, but somebody has to be the whipping boy for all those years of frustration and I'd love to be that guy!"?

You have to look at from outside the bubble of being a Bengals fan.  

That is why fans feel the way they do.  That is why you'd be an idiot to not understand why.

It's not their fault that they're jaded.  It's the ownership.

They own that dubious reputation 100%.

This is ridiculous to place blame on culture of the fans.

Boo hoo a player wants to think our fans are terrible.

Let them play for a winner that misses the playoffs one year and they want their coach and themselves strung up in public.

Put together a winner that doesn't embarrass themselves in prime-time and playoff games that are epic failures.

That would turn this fan base and perhaps put fans back in the stadium.

It's just a wild and crazy thought.

(12-29-2018, 04:39 PM)Beaker Wrote: With a heavy contribution from pessimistic fans who claim every small setback as the wheels falling of again.

Every small setback?  Now that's some funny shit. 

Okay, put about a hundred of those "small setbacks" end to end or side by side and now you have a major disaster, which is where we now stand.  Wheels falling off again, meaning they've fallen off before.  More than once, in fact.  Gee, why would anyone jump to that conclusion?

(12-29-2018, 07:30 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The actual years that we were good the fans should have showed up.

But, sadly the good years came after about what 15 subpar years? You alienate a fan base after you go through eras like the 90's.

It's hard to win fans back.

Personally, I go to sporting events to be entertained and for the experience.  Obviously, it's more fun when your team wins.  When the team is bad, they're probably going to lose, so I completely understand fans not turning out to watch bad teams.  For me, when the Bengals have been good, the fact that Marvin can't get it done in the playoffs doesn't stop me from enjoying the game.  Even then, some of the sporting memories that stick with me most are from losses, and I'm glad to have those.  I was at OSU vs Texas in '05, for example.  OSU lost, but it was a great game and the atmosphere was incredible.

Personally, peeps get too worried about agendas and the narratives we create in our heads.  We get too wound up looking at the big picture and don't enjoy the small successes.  

It's not that hard to win fans back, honestly.  The Cavs were basically the NBA equivalent of the current Bengals, then they got LeBron and it all changed.  Seattle wasn't good for years and years, and now they have a huge fanbase.  Same with the Saints.  

(12-29-2018, 08:26 PM)Whatever Wrote: Personally, I go to sporting events to be entertained and for the experience.  Obviously, it's more fun when your team wins.  When the team is bad, they're probably going to lose, so I completely understand fans not turning out to watch bad teams.  For me, when the Bengals have been good, the fact that Marvin can't get it done in the playoffs doesn't stop me from enjoying the game.  Even then, some of the sporting memories that stick with me most are from losses, and I'm glad to have those.  I was at OSU vs Texas in '05, for example.  OSU lost, but it was a great game and the atmosphere was incredible.

Personally, peeps get too worried about agendas and the narratives we create in our heads.  We get too wound up looking at the big picture and don't enjoy the small successes.  

It's not that hard to win fans back, honestly.  The Cavs were basically the NBA equivalent of the current Bengals, then they got LeBron and it all changed.  Seattle wasn't good for years and years, and now they have a huge fanbase.  Same with the Saints.  

And what was their magic formula?  Oh yeah, they started winning.     And they all had the nerve to win in the playoffs.

Anybody who has the audacity to rag on Bengal fans is just way out of bounds.  How can anybody go all in on a Marvin led team when the eventual outcome is never in doubt?  Fire his arrogant ass and and hire someone whose philosophies were born in this century and just see what fans do.

(12-29-2018, 08:32 PM)McC Wrote: And what was their magic formula?  Oh yeah, they started winning.     And they all had the nerve to win in the playoffs.

Anybody who has the audacity to rag on Bengal fans is just way out of bounds.  How can anybody go all in on a Marvin led team when the eventual outcome is never in doubt?  Fire his arrogant ass and and hire someone whose philosophies were born in this century and just see what fans do.

Their fans still turned out and supported them on their way to playoffs.  Their fans didn't go "Oh...if you win a playoff game we'll show up next year...unless you fall off...then we still won't show up."

What does going all in on a Marvin led team even mean, exactly?  Is buying a ticket for a regular season game or a jersey of your favorite player a waste if the team loses in the playoffs?  I mean, I want Marvin gone, too, but what does that even mean?

Can you not see the irony in one of the cheapest fanbases in the NFL constantly calling out one of the cheapest owners in the NFL for being cheap?  

This team definitely needs a culture change.  Like it or not, a team's fanbase is a huge part of that culture.

(12-29-2018, 08:26 PM)Whatever Wrote: Personally, I go to sporting events to be entertained and for the experience.  Obviously, it's more fun when your team wins.  When the team is bad, they're probably going to lose, so I completely understand fans not turning out to watch bad teams.  For me, when the Bengals have been good, the fact that Marvin can't get it done in the playoffs doesn't stop me from enjoying the game.  Even then, some of the sporting memories that stick with me most are from losses, and I'm glad to have those.  I was at OSU vs Texas in '05, for example.  OSU lost, but it was a great game and the atmosphere was incredible.

Personally, peeps get too worried about agendas and the narratives we create in our heads.  We get too wound up looking at the big picture and don't enjoy the small successes.  

It's not that hard to win fans back, honestly.  The Cavs were basically the NBA equivalent of the current Bengals, then they got LeBron and it all changed.  Seattle wasn't good for years and years, and now they have a huge fanbase.  Same with the Saints.  

Yes and winning instills the culture.

Funny how that works.

That's on the ownership, coaching, on down to the players themselves.

So if the player wants to come here and win those other two factors better be up to snuff and competitive.

Not some broken record of "we've got to do better".

Which none, nada, zip, zilch has to do with the fans.

Every game I've been to they've won. Including this season.

The incredible Dolphins comeback game.

Did I enjoy it? Hell yes I did.

So yes winning was entertaining.

I've been on the other end of that spectrum with the Reds losing time after time and having spent money then driven an hour and a half home pissed.

It got really old.  I stopped doing it and lost interest in the team I once loved.

It was time & money invested by me and my family and it took a toll eventually.

No way. 

No way in hell would I fault people for ripping the Bengals who have spent a lot of time and moolah on them.

If anything that might be payback "entertainment" for themselves.

This team is M. Night Shyamalan of the NFL.

Had some moments but for the most part a waste of time and talent of actors.

They're the expected failure with their own kind of special twists.

(12-29-2018, 11:05 PM)Whatever Wrote: Can you not see the irony in one of the cheapest fanbases in the NFL constantly calling out one of the cheapest owners in the NFL for being cheap?  

This team definitely needs a culture change.  Like it or not, a team's fanbase is a huge part of that culture.

I'd be interested to hear what fans need to do to compel Mike Brown to hire an actual GM.

(12-29-2018, 02:34 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I am still not getting your point.

Are you saying Mahomes is great just because he wants it more than any Bengal?  You do realize that the Chiefs have only won one playoff game in the last 25 years, right?  So it has nothing to do with tradition.

Here lately the Chiefs have had:

A) A superior head coach

and

B) Far better GM’s than the Bengals.


Put both of those together, and you get a better roster that lines up with the head coach’s vision. It also helps when the GM doesn’t accept average (Alex Smith) and goes for a potentially better solution, even if it means cutting bait on average. The Bengals rarely do this as it makes players uncomfortable. Average and middling talent usually gets to play out the life of a contract in Cincy.