(12-30-2018, 06:04 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Yeah. How does it make any sense that a fan can not financially support a team, go to games, buy merchandise...yet that's not negative but voicing your opinion on the interwebz is?

Being negative doesn't get Mike Brown to conduct business like his peers, so I don't see what cheering and slapping him on the back during a 3rd losing season is going to do to shake things up.


MB - I'm bringing back Marvin Lewis for the 2019 season.
FANS - BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
MB - My mind is made up, you negative whiners!

OR

MB - I'm bringing back Marvin Lewis for the 2019 season.
FANS - YAYYYY!!!!!
MB - My mind is made up, you nega.....wait, you're happy?  In that case, I'm going to hire a real GM, build and indoor practice facility, pay for the next stadium myself, and I'll hire a new HC! All you needed to do to get me to change was cheer my failure. I can't believe you never figured that out.

(12-30-2018, 05:02 PM)Beaker Wrote: The whole idea that the fans are a part of it, and not the sole cause of it was apparently lost on you.

Nothing was lost on me. 

I get that you're leaving a lot of grey area so it's hard to disprove your wild assertions. That said, how much affect do you think fans have? 1-2 wins? 4? Give me something tangible here. You can't make such a bold statement as "fans play a role in losing/toxicity" without providing some solid examples. Otherwise you just sound like a guy who is salty about all the negativity and chooses to take it out on other fans, rather than the team. 

(12-30-2018, 03:44 PM)Beaker Wrote: You are entitled to your beliefs. I have found otherwise in my life. You cannot deny fans reactions have an effect on the team. There's a reason why some places are hard for visiting teams to play. The fans have a positive belief that the team will make a 4th down play or comeback to win the game. In turn, the team feeds off that. The fans were not the only reason the team was successful, there were thousands of others. But the fans contributed to the success. Turn it around and fans with the "here we go again" mentality and responses during a game also contribute to doubt and belief creeping into the players psyche also.

Again, I dont think you need to accept the losing and bad decisions, but I think there are other ways to go about it than consistent whining.

Generally fans cheer louder for teams that win/are good.

I can see a team having a bad 5 year span. 7 year span. But, were going on 26+ years...AND WE HAVEN'T HIRED A GM YET!

We still have largely the same management team in place.

Say what you want about the Browns, but they atleast made changes until they got a formula that worked.

(12-29-2018, 08:26 PM)Whatever Wrote: Personally, I go to sporting events to be entertained and for the experience.  Obviously, it's more fun when your team wins.  When the team is bad, they're probably going to lose, so I completely understand fans not turning out to watch bad teams.  For me, when the Bengals have been good, the fact that Marvin can't get it done in the playoffs doesn't stop me from enjoying the game.  Even then, some of the sporting memories that stick with me most are from losses, and I'm glad to have those.  I was at OSU vs Texas in '05, for example.  OSU lost, but it was a great game and the atmosphere was incredible.

Personally, peeps get too worried about agendas and the narratives we create in our heads.  We get too wound up looking at the big picture and don't enjoy the small successes.  

It's not that hard to win fans back, honestly.  The Cavs were basically the NBA equivalent of the current Bengals, then they got LeBron and it all changed.  Seattle wasn't good for years and years, and now they have a huge fanbase.  Same with the Saints.  

I went to the Saints vs Bengals Game and had fun. I will say, I've been to a lot of stadiums and PBS has the least non-football entertainment than any stadium I've been to. It's basically all just concrete and concession stands inside. Very bland.

(12-30-2018, 04:04 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Mikey had his carrot back when PBS sold out for 57 straight games or whatever it was.

What exactly did he change? Neither the carrot nor the stick work with someone whose stubbornness is legendary.

Mike does what he wants to do regardless of what fans say/do/think. Revenue sharing helps him maintain his stubbornness.

Well, he did make changes during that timeframe.  That's when he stopped promoting from within and hired Marvin as HC.  He was a lot more active in FA during that time, too.  He certainly didn't change as much as we wanted, but he did make positive steps.

(12-30-2018, 02:34 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Fan support is at or near the bottom in evaluating where a player decides which team to go to. Money, playing time and SB opportunities are at the top. 

A toxic fan base is the result of a team's performance in recent years and fan support, as a reason to choose which team to go to, is only a factor in fan's minds.

Every player is different, and every player has different priorities.  How much free Gatorade he got to take home was apparently a big deal for Jonathan Joseph.  Even if it's a small factor, it can be the tipping point when things like money are close.

Players also make money from things like endorsements and Jersey sales.  An unsupportive fan base means there's less money to be made from those kinds of sources.

(12-30-2018, 10:52 PM)Whatever Wrote: Every player is different, and every player has different priorities.  How much free Gatorade he got to take home was apparently a big deal for Jonathan Joseph.  Even if it's a small factor, it can be the tipping point when things like money are close.

Players also make money from things like endorsements and Jersey sales.  An unsupportive fan base means there's less money to be made from those kinds of sources.

We can't get FA players or coaches for the same reason players can't wait to leave. This franchise is a steaming pile of crap. The absolute joke of the NFL is not a destination that is desirable.  

(12-30-2018, 05:38 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Your way is not the only way and it's not better than someone else's way. It's your opinion. 

You may view me as someone who complains and must live, at least somewhat, miserably because of the way i react to the Bengals. If not you, it's certainly been stated by many on this board, of myself and others, who complain about the team.

Fact of the matter is, i'm 52 years old and my most recent blood work from my checkup shows that there is not one single thing i can do to noticeably improve my health. Literally. Triglycerides, LDL, overall cholesterol, blood pressure, resting heart rate, etc.etc.etc. Everything that they test falls in the middle of the accepted range for that test. I have no diseases, i haven't been sick in any way in at least 2 years, i go to the gym 3 times a week for 2 hrs each time. All of my bills are paid, up to date, i have a decent amount of money in the bank and a large amount of credit available. The wife and i each have a reliable car and a nice roof over our head along with all the amenities i need, directv, computers, laptops, phone, etc. etc. We get along great and rarely argue and when we do, we resolve it pretty quickly. Even though i lost one son 5 years ago, i still have one who lives in a house, has his own car, a college degree and a good job in the field of his degree and spends plenty of time with us. I have a large family on both my and my wife's side that we visit with on different occasions, holidays, birthdays, reunions, etc. I have a secure job that i love and am paid well for and i get along with everyone i work with. I'd claim that the reason i'm as healthy as i am is because i have very little stress in my life. When something bothers me i let it out, i don't try to force another emotion on it to compensate (that's not to say everyone does that. some people are naturally positive no matter the situation).  

All of that to say; don't judge people by what you see online and don't try to tell people your way is better. People that complain, even regularly and loudly, don't necessarily live miserable, empty lives. In my case, it's the opposite. 

I have to work pretty hard to find anything to complain about in my personal life. It just so happens that, the sports teams i root for give me plenty to complain about and since it does nothing to effect my personal life, i have no problem expressing those complaints.

Its nice that your life is going so well. But the topic was the air of toxicity. My way is the only way to reduce fans contribution to the negative air around the team. If you complain and whine you add to it, you do not reduce it. So its this simple, if you want to reduce the toxicity, reduce your complaining, if you don't care about it or want to maintain it, then keep up with the whining.

(12-30-2018, 05:46 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Well, judging by the stadium attendance I'd say plenty of fans are choosing to not be part of the equation.  But that can be spun as being negative because they aren't going to games, supporting the team, and what not.

And that's exactly a way they can affect change without constant negative vocal input.

Quote:But this is all based around the idea that fans being positive about the Bengals would convince Mike Brown to change his MO, which is even less likely that Mike Brown changing his MO because fans are being negative and not showing up.

None of what I said was spun around getting MB to change by being positive. It was pointed out that there was a toxicity surrounding this team, and I pointed out that the negative, whining fans are contributing to that. 

(12-30-2018, 05:52 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: So I would like to know what you do to overcome your frustration with the team? I bet you just stick your fingers in your ears and repeat NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA. I prefer my way to yours if you don't mind.

Which makes you part of the toxicity. Carry on.

(12-31-2018, 01:57 AM)Beaker Wrote: Its nice that your life is going so well. But the topic was the air of toxicity. My way is the only way to reduce fans contribution to the negative air around the team. If you complain and whine you add to it, you do not reduce it. So its this simple, if you want to reduce the toxicity, reduce your complaining, if you don't care about it or want to maintain it, then keep up with the whining.

You have to realize, it's hard to actually be a fan of a team that loses and still care but not complain, either.  The Bengals have had plenty of fans "stop complaining" over the past 25 years, I assure you.

(12-30-2018, 05:54 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: So if we agree that fans are a part of the toxicity of the team.

1)  Wouldn't you say it's the majority of fans?

2)  Why would that be?  Surely not a vast majority of people gravitated to a team that were negative to begin with?

You could lie to these answers or wriggle around them.

I do have an honest answer though.

The team is a vacuum, and all of those have been sucked into it's negativity. 

Some were negative to begin with.  Some were poisoned by it.

It's when those fans turn apathetic when it becomes a "you problem, not a me problem" because they no longer care.

Which is the biggest shame and much worse than complaining for the team itself and it's players.


Thoughts?

I would totally agree with you that some fans are negative. Although I dont believe its the majority. I believe most fans are disgusted and tired of the status quo, but not all choose to be consistently, vocally negative.

Why would that be? Its due to a collection of things that are well documented. MB. ML, the lack of winning, draft busts, lack of FAs, etc. It all contributes to the displeasure.

But my point wasnt about the causes of the toxicity. It was that we are contributing to it. Its amazing how defensive people have become trying to justify their negativity instead of admitting it does zero good and contributes to the overall toxicity currently surrounding the franchise. 

I would love to hear your thoughts on why it is so hard for people to admit that incessant negativity does nothing to help this franchise. 

(12-31-2018, 01:57 AM)Beaker Wrote: Its nice that your life is going so well. But the topic was the air of toxicity. My way is the only way to reduce fans contribution to the negative air around the team. If you complain and whine you add to it, you do not reduce it. So its this simple, if you want to reduce the toxicity, reduce your complaining, if you don't care about it or want to maintain it, then keep up with the whining.

The air of toxicity is more in your mind than it is a reality. Fans are fed up with 3 straight seasons of losing, which followed 5 straight years of inept performances in the playoffs (1 and done), which followed 20 years of mostly doormat status. 

Complaining less isn't going to change anything except give you less posts to read. More than that, it's simply not reality. Fans are happy when their team wins and not happy when they lose, especially when they lose like and as much as the Bengals do. 

You're tilting at windmills. 

(12-30-2018, 11:03 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: We can't get FA players or coaches for the same reason players can't wait to leave. This franchise is a steaming pile of crap. The absolute joke of the NFL is not a destination that is desirable.  

Tell us how this doesn't contribute to an air of toxicity surrounding the franchise.

(12-31-2018, 02:10 AM)Beaker Wrote: I would totally agree with you that some fans are negative. Although I dont believe its the majority. I believe most fans are disgusted and tired of the status quo, but not all choose to be consistently, vocally negative.

Why would that be? Its due to a collection of things that are well documented. MB. ML, the lack of winning, draft busts, lack of FAs, etc. It all contributes to the displeasure.

But my point wasnt about the causes of the toxicity. It was that we are contributing to it. Its amazing how defensive people have become trying to justify their negativity instead of admitting it does zero good and contributes to the overall toxicity currently surrounding the franchise. 

I would love to hear your thoughts on why it is so hard for people to admit that incessant negativity does nothing to help this franchise.

It does nothing to hurt it either.

Do you really believe fans bitching on a website has any bearing on whether the Bengals win or lose ? Go after free agents or not ? Fire a coach or not ? Change Mike Browns ways ?

(12-31-2018, 02:21 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: It does nothing to hurt it either.

I disagree. It contributes to the overall negative air surrounding the team. 

Quote:Do you really believe fans bitching on a website has any bearing on whether the Bengals win or lose ? Go after free agents or not ? Fire a coach or not ? Change Mike Browns ways ?

So if it doesnt help or affect any of those things, what's the point in b!tching?

(12-31-2018, 02:11 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: The air of toxicity is more in your mind than it is a reality. Fans are fed up with 3 straight seasons of losing, which followed 5 straight years of inept performances in the playoffs (1 and done), which followed 20 years of mostly doormat status. 

Complaining less isn't going to change anything except give you less posts to read. More than that, it's simply not reality. Fans are happy when their team wins and not happy when they lose, especially when they lose like and as much as the Bengals do. 

You're tilting at windmills. 

Negativity doesnt have to be a given. Thats the point.

(12-31-2018, 02:26 AM)Beaker Wrote: I disagree. It contributes to the overall negative air surrounding the team. 


So if it doesnt help or affect any of those things, what's the point in b!tching?

We're tired of it and want change. Should we come on here and post smileys and flowers blossoming and talk about how great this endless misery is ?

(12-31-2018, 02:28 AM)Beaker Wrote: Negativity doesnt have to be a given. Thats the point.

Negativity is a given when teams lose. That's reality. Negativity generally gives a better chance for change than a lack of negativity. That's reality. 

All of your arguments only lead me to one conclusion. You don't want to have to read negative posts.

Windmills.

And with that, i'm done with the merry go round. I have appreciated the discussion though.

Fan opinion does matter to the players - specifically to their agents. They scour these boards daily and sometimes create user profiles to propagate their message, disguised as a fan. That is a fact.

But to the owners, only TV sponsor opinions matter.

In regards to draft eligible or free agents being influenced by culture, the only thing that matters to them is money.

It is a privilege to be drafted in NFL. Baker Mayfield's representatives lobbied the Browns to be picked first - as did Allen and Darnold's. There was not a single place worse than Cleveland in terms of culture. There are very very few Manning or Elways in this world who refuse being drafted by a specific Team.

Free agents are the same. They go to the highest bidder or a place where they can start at a specific position - ala Marvin Jones.