(02-03-2019, 11:13 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Just because they were 2-14 with that line does not mean that they were 2-14 because of that line.  The problems with that team, and previous ones in that era wasn't a lack of talent on the team, as much as it was a failure to perform to their abilities.  They had huge problems with morale, attitude, and general climate of organizational culture.

Where with the 2018 team, we have a team that failed to make the playoffs for the 3rd straight season, even after a 4-1 start to the season.  I think that it can be argued fairly that the offense put up average numbers this season in spite of the line being poor, rather than because of it "performing better" than the 2002 line.

Again, here is the 2002 team.  A lot of talent on that roster, equal to or greater than what we have today.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cin/2002_roster.htm

It appears you are saying ML got a lot more out of his roster (if rosters were equal) than many give him credit for. He was not 1 or 2 games better in 2018, he was 4 games better than the 2002 roster being compared.

Maybe I am missing something you stated. For the record, I agreed ML should be gone, should have been gone a year earlier in my opinion as time for a change, something was not right starting in 2016.

(02-03-2019, 11:13 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Just because they were 2-14 with that line does not mean that they were 2-14 because of that line.  The problems with that team, and previous ones in that era wasn't a lack of talent on the team, as much as it was a failure to perform to their abilities.  They had huge problems with morale, attitude, and general climate of organizational culture.

Where with the 2018 team, we have a team that failed to make the playoffs for the 3rd straight season, even after a 4-1 start to the season.  I think that it can be argued fairly that the offense put up average numbers this season in spite of the line being poor, rather than because of it "performing better" than the 2002 line.

Again, here is the 2002 team.  A lot of talent on that roster, equal to or greater than what we have today.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cin/2002_roster.htm

The 2002 team was the biggest sack of stinking garbage in the history of Bengals football.  What Marvin came in and did in 2003 was amazing and why I hung with Marvin as the coach so long.  Any nonsense saying the 2002 Bengals were good is total illusion and magic trick because that team stunk to high heaven.  I've been a Bengals Fan since 1968, and 2002 is as bad as it gets. Not saying 2018 was a thing of beauty, but 2002 is the worst.  Boy, did Mike Brown and The Drugstore list gut blow it on not taking the Mike Ditka trade offer. Akili Smith, boy did he stink.  2002 was the result of way too much Mike Brown and no scouts. 

You can maybe blame some of 2018 on injuries, but not 2002 team that was just pure awful, a Mike Brown built team.

(02-03-2019, 02:23 PM)kevin Wrote: The 2002 team was the biggest sack of stinking garbage in the history of Bengals football.  What Marvin came in and did in 2003 was amazing and why I hung with Marvin as the coach so long.  Any nonsense saying the 2002 Bengals were good is total illusion and magic trick because that team stunk to high heaven.  I've been a Bengals Fan since 1968, and 2002 is as bad as it gets. Not saying 2018 was a thing of beauty, but 2002 is the worst.  Boy, did Mike Brown and The Drugstore list gut blow it on not taking the Mike Ditka trade offer. Akili Smith, boy did he stink.  2002 was the result of way too much Mike Brown and no scouts. 

You can maybe blame some of 2018 on injuries, but not 2002 team that was just pure awful, a Mike Brown built team.

I think all he's saying is...

Braham > Price
Jones > Glenn
Willie Anderson > Hart

But 2-14 can't be argued with. I remember games where they barely crossed the 50 yard line...

(02-03-2019, 02:18 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: It appears you are saying ML got a lot more out of his roster (if rosters were equal) than many give him credit for. He was not 1 or 2 games better in 2018, he was 4 games better than the 2002 roster being compared.

Maybe I am missing something you stated. For the record, I agreed ML should be gone, should have been gone a year earlier in my opinion as time for a change, something was not right starting in 2016.

If you follow the posts-chain back a bit, it all began when I asserted that Marvin had better raw material to build around on the OL from the 2002 roster, than Taylor does with what's coming back from the 2018 roster.  I don't see how that could be construed as anything other than the comparison I was trying to make, but people see a few words and just tend to run with it...

(02-03-2019, 02:23 PM)kevin Wrote: The 2002 team was the biggest sack of stinking garbage in the history of Bengals football.  What Marvin came in and did in 2003 was amazing and why I hung with Marvin as the coach so long.  Any nonsense saying the 2002 Bengals were good is total illusion and magic trick because that team stunk to high heaven.  I've been a Bengals Fan since 1968, and 2002 is as bad as it gets. Not saying 2018 was a thing of beauty, but 2002 is the worst.  Boy, did Mike Brown and The Drugstore list gut blow it on not taking the Mike Ditka trade offer. Akili Smith, boy did he stink.  2002 was the result of way too much Mike Brown and no scouts. 

You can maybe blame some of 2018 on injuries, but not 2002 team that was just pure awful, a Mike Brown built team.

That offense also had Corey Dillon, Chad Johnson, and Lorenzo Neal on it.  Pure garbage, right there, for sure...    

But, I see you chose to gloss past the part where I said the team had morale, attitude, and an atmosphere of discontent in the organizational climate...

The 2002 team did horribly, no doubt about it.  But, not because they didn't have bodies capable of doing significantly better.

Has anyone on this thread pointed out that having Matt Patricia at Detroit didn't seem to do them much good? Well, he did have the big game against his former boss and team. So yes, the Bengals have a new coaching system but for next year don't pencil them into the playoffs just yet.

Marvin had three out of the five OL pieces when he came aboard and he went after the other two pretty quickly.

The new HC will come in with 0-2 of the pieces needed. Hopefully this will likewise means this new HC goes after Offensive Line aggressively.

(02-03-2019, 02:51 PM)jason Wrote: I think all he's saying is...

Braham > Price
Jones > Glenn
Willie Anderson > Hart

But 2-14 can't be argued with. I remember games where they barely crossed the 50 yard line...

Jones was just a rookie Glenn has been a solid performer you cant compare the two in relative of experience at that time. We also can go Boling vs Odwyer . Bottom line nothing special with that line overall performance 2-14 is reflective of the overall team and I pointed out before stats wise 2018 did better.

(02-03-2019, 06:54 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Jones was just a rookie Glenn has been a solid performer you cant compare the two in relative of experience at that time. We also can go Boling vs Odwyer . Bottom line nothing special with that line overall performance 2-14 is reflective of the overall team and I pointed out before stats wise 2018 did better.

"Just a rookie", yet he was named to the NFL All-Rookie team..

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/awards/nfl-all-rookie-2002.htm

There's no way in hell that you'll convince me that a healthy, young Levi Jones isn't better to have on hand than a washed-up Cordy Glenn..

(02-03-2019, 05:06 PM)Joelist Wrote: Marvin had three out of the five OL pieces when he came aboard and he went after the other two pretty quickly.

The new HC will come in with 0-2 of the pieces needed. Hopefully this will likewise means this new HC goes after Offensive Line aggressively.

It's really hard to believe he wouldn't.  You would think blocking would be a big part of his offense.  Duke has said they will do everything they can to give him what he wants.  And they'll have to live up to those promises because we need to sign at least two starters in FA so we have some flexibility in the draft.

(02-03-2019, 07:20 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: "Just a rookie", yet he was named to the NFL All-Rookie team..

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/awards/nfl-all-rookie-2002.htm

There's no way in hell that you'll convince me that a healthy, young Levi Jones isn't better to have on hand than a washed-up Cordy Glenn..

Price made the rookie team this year hmm.. and Corey Glenn career is parallel to Jones,  Because he was injured does not downgrade the quality of a player he has been, injured this year does not take away the player we traded for. We are trying revision history in propping up a 2-14 line that had 4 less wins, same sacks 2018 ,  11 less Passing TDs and over 1/2 yard less yard rushing avg.  Facts are facts

(02-03-2019, 07:32 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Price made the rookie team this year hmm.. and Corey Glenn career is parallel to Jones,  Because he was injured does not downgrade the quality of a player he has been, injured this year does not take away the player we traded for. We are trying revision history in propping up a 2-14 line that had 4 less wins, same sacks 2018 ,  11 less Passing TDs and over 1/2 yard less yard rushing avg.  Facts are facts

You're exactly right, facts ARE facts.  And, the fact that I'm emphasizing here, is that when Marvin Lewis came to the Bengals, after the 2002 season, he had better OL material to work with than the incoming Zac Taylor does with the current Bengal roster.

Quick question for ya, Champ..  Who is the current Bengals RT?

(02-03-2019, 02:23 PM)kevin Wrote: The 2002 team was the biggest sack of stinking garbage in the history of Bengals football.  What Marvin came in and did in 2003 was amazing and why I hung with Marvin as the coach so long.  Any nonsense saying the 2002 Bengals were good is total illusion and magic trick because that team stunk to high heaven.  I've been a Bengals Fan since 1968, and 2002 is as bad as it gets. Not saying 2018 was a thing of beauty, but 2002 is the worst.  Boy, did Mike Brown and The Drugstore list gut blow it on not taking the Mike Ditka trade offer. Akili Smith, boy did he stink.  2002 was the result of way too much Mike Brown and no scouts. 

You can maybe blame some of 2018 on injuries, but not 2002 team that was just pure awful, a Mike Brown built team.

The 2002 team drove into watching soccer, lol.

(02-03-2019, 07:55 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You're exactly right, facts ARE facts.  And, the fact that I'm emphasizing here, is that when Marvin Lewis came to the Bengals, after the 2002 season, he had better OL material to work with than the incoming Zac Taylor does with the current Bengal roster.

Quick question for ya, Champ..  Who is the current Bengals RT?

Levi, Willie, Braham, and a young Steinbach, who was still one of the better LGs in the league as a rookie.  Yeah, I'd say that's better than what we have now.  A disappointing rookie C, a declining vet LT, and a serviceable LG don't compare to that group.  The current group consists of at least two guys (RG, LG) that don't start on any team in an ideal situation.

(02-03-2019, 08:43 PM)samhain Wrote: Levi, Willie, Braham, and a young Steinbach, who was still one of the better LGs in the league as a rookie.  Yeah, I'd say that's better than what we have now.  A disappointing rookie C, a declining vet LT, and a serviceable LG don't compare to that group.  The current group consists of at least two guys (RG, LG) that don't start on any team in an ideal situation.

Give you credit for keep trying to revise 2002 team. So first Steinbach was drafted in 2003 so does not matter in comparison,  both Jones and price were on rookie team, Glenn was injured not washed up player, 2002 had 2 subpar players in Odwyer and Goff so again this was not a heads and above line.. Avg at best and you cany excuse 2-14 nice try, plus please explain why we rushed so much better in 2018 than 2002 which we had Dillion best back in our history...hmm

(02-03-2019, 09:02 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Give you credit for keep trying to revise 2002 team. So first Steinbach was drafted in 2003 so does not matter in comparison,  both Jones and price were on rookie team, Glenn was injured not washed up player, 2002 had 2 subpar players in Odwyer and Goff so again this was not a heads and above line.. Avg at best and you cany excuse 2-14 nice try, plus please explain why we rushed so much better in 2018 than 2002 which we had Dillion best back in our history...hmm

In 2002, Dillon ran for 1311 and caught 43 passes for 298.  This past season, Mixon ran for 1168 and caught 43 passes for 296.  Mixon had a higher ypc at 4.9, compared to 4.2 for Dillon.

I wouldn't say that the 2018 Bengals ran "so much" better than '02. The "real" difference? Andy Dalton is a much, much better QB than Jon Kitna was. This year, Andy threw for 2566, 21 TD 11INT, in 11 games. In 2002, Kitna threw for 3178 16TD, 16INT, in 16 games.

(02-03-2019, 07:55 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You're exactly right, facts ARE facts.  And, the fact that I'm emphasizing here, is that when Marvin Lewis came to the Bengals, after the 2002 season, he had better OL material to work with than the incoming Zac Taylor does with the current Bengal roster.

Quick question for ya, Champ..  Who is the current Bengals RT?

We don't know yet who our OL will be in 2019. Just like the new coach had no idea he had Steinbach who had yet to be drafted when ML was hired.

It is a hard sell to say the 2-14 roster was better than the 2018 roster Taylor will inherit when they went 6-10 or 4 games better. The OL comparison also consists of you knowing the 2003 OL, we do not know the 2019 OL, not yet. But, how many hall of famers on the 2002 or 2003 OL? 
My comparison is the entire roster though, Taylor will inherit a roster just like ML did of more tan an OL.

(02-03-2019, 07:32 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Price made the rookie team this year hmm.. and Corey Glenn career is parallel to Jones,  Because he was injured does not downgrade the quality of a player he has been, injured this year does not take away the player we traded for. We are trying revision history in propping up a 2-14 line that had 4 less wins, same sacks 2018 ,  11 less Passing TDs and over 1/2 yard less yard rushing avg.  Facts are facts

There were only 2 rookie centers this year... How may rookie tackles we're there in 2002 when Levi made the all rookie team? I don't know myself, but I'd wager there were more than two.

4 scrubs on the 2018 line... I'll give Price a pass for this season, but he was far from overwhelming. I'd say this team is better than the team Lewis inherited. Many of them have played on winning teams. The only point that was being made was that that team had a much more solid foundation at the offensive line.

(02-03-2019, 09:02 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Give you credit for keep trying to revise 2002 team. So first Steinbach was drafted in 2003 so does not matter in comparison,  both Jones and price were on rookie team, Glenn was injured not washed up player, 2002 had 2 subpar players in Odwyer and Goff so again this was not a heads and above line.. Avg at best and you cany excuse 2-14 nice try, plus please explain why we rushed so much better in 2018 than 2002 which we had Dillion best back in our history...hmm

Glenn isn't the player he was in Buffalo, flat out.  He just looks better to us now because he's not Cedric Ogbuehi or Jake Fisher, ie compete garbage.  He's probably not quite "washed up", but he's on the way down and is not a long-term answer.  

As for Steiny, I was under the impression that we were talking about what Marvin inherited vs what Taylor will inherit.  Marvin's starting LG going into 03 was Eric Steinbach, so if you want to say that the actual 02 line was worse than this one, then I'll concede the Steinbach point.  That wasn't, however, what Marvin inherited.  

(02-03-2019, 10:30 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: We don't know yet who our OL will be in 2019. Just like the new coach had no idea he had Steinbach who had yet to be drafted when ML was hired.

It is a hard sell to say the 2-14 roster was better than the 2018 roster Taylor will inherit when they went 6-10 or 4 games better. The OL comparison also consists of you knowing the 2003 OL, we do not know the 2019 OL, not yet. But, how many hall of famers on the 2002 or 2003 OL? 
My comparison is the entire roster though, Taylor will inherit a roster just like ML did of more tan an OL.

It's a tough comparison.  Marvin had some of the best player in the history of this franchise in place when he arrived.  Chad, TJ, Willie, Rudi, Levi, Braham, etc were a solid foundation.  Taylor will have AJ, Boyd and Mixon.  Other than that, there are many more question marks on offense.  No clear number 1 TE on the roster. Absolutely nobody of value on the right side of the o-line.  

On top of that, Marvin had a number 1 pick in his pocket coming in.  This was in a year when what many perceived to be a generational talent at quarterback was available in Palmer.  He was made to be a QB, had size, a rocket arm, and could make literally any throw.  Even if the Bengals had the number 1 pick, that guy is not in this draft.  

All of the skill guys were in place for Marvin.  Bookend tackles were in place, too.  On top of that, you had a guy coming in to lead your team for the next decade at qb.  Taylor will not have this luxury.  he's got the skill guys, but that's about all.  This team is looking at a 2-3 year rebuild to contend again.