(02-04-2019, 01:49 AM)samhain Wrote: It's a tough comparison.  Marvin had some of the best player in the history of this franchise in place when he arrived.  Chad, TJ, Willie, Rudi, Levi, Braham, etc were a solid foundation.  Taylor will have AJ, Boyd and Mixon.  Other than that, there are many more question marks on offense.  No clear number 1 TE on the roster. Absolutely nobody of value on the right side of the o-line.  

On top of that, Marvin had a number 1 pick in his pocket coming in.  This was in a year when what many perceived to be a generational talent at quarterback was available in Palmer.  He was made to be a QB, had size, a rocket arm, and could make literally any throw.  Even if the Bengals had the number 1 pick, that guy is not in this draft.  

All of the skill guys were in place for Marvin.  Bookend tackles were in place, too.  On top of that, you had a guy coming in to lead your team for the next decade at qb.  Taylor will not have this luxury.  he's got the skill guys, but that's about all.  This team is looking at a 2-3 year rebuild to contend again.

Tough comparison?
 Steinbach was not drafted yet and an unknown in 2003 once he was drafted.
TJ was injured - did not play a game in 2003
Spikes the leading tackler moved on.
Rudy J. was an unknown
Again, Palmer was drafted number 1, but he did not start in 2003, Kitna's team.
The tackles were in place, but Levi was a 1 year guy and hardly established as an all pro, in fact, how many time were Anderson and Levi all pro?


On defense and special teams, ML inherited a far worse roster of talent, not even close. So, even if you give the edge to the OL, say even on skilled players, the QB is a seasoned vet and they have 2 outstanding DL in Atkins and Dunlap and solid safeties with Williams and rookie Bates. Huber and fat Randy are far better than the specialists for ML.

Having said all that, ML improved 6 games from 2-14 to 8-8.
All I am asking (expecting) is Taylor to improve 4 games from 6-10 to 10-6 with in my opinion a better supporting cast.. Look back at the scores of the games in 2002 and you will see a bunch of blow outs ( double digit losses) versus 2018 double digit losses of 5, but 2018 team had double digit wins also, 2002 team had one big won). That tells me 2002 was a disaster, not close and anyone expecting 8-8 back then was drinking the Kool aid, but ML did it. The 2018 team was competitive, the 2002 team was not.

(02-03-2019, 09:02 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Give you credit for keep trying to revise 2002 team. So first Steinbach was drafted in 2003 so does not matter in comparison,  both Jones and price were on rookie team, Glenn was injured not washed up player, 2002 had 2 subpar players in Odwyer and Goff so again this was not a heads and above line.. Avg at best and you cany excuse 2-14 nice try, plus please explain why we rushed so much better in 2018 than 2002 which we had Dillion best back in our history...hmm

I've got a question.  Who gives a shit?  What is your aim here in this goofy argument anyway?

(02-04-2019, 11:41 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Tough comparison?
 Steinbach was not drafted yet and an unknown in 2003 once he was drafted.
TJ was injured - did not play a game in 2003
Spikes the leading tackler moved on.
Rudy J. was an unknown
Again, Palmer was drafted number 1, but he did not start in 2002, Kitna's team.
The tackles were in place, but Levi was a 1 year guy and hardly established as an all pro, in fact, how many time were Anderson and Levi all pro?


On defense and special teams, ML inherited a far worse roster of talent, not even close. So, even if you give the edge to the OL, say even on skilled players, the QB is a seasoned vet and they have 2 outstanding DL in Atkins and Dunlap and solid safeties with Williams and rookie Bates. Huber and fat Randy are far better than the specialists for ML.

Having said all that, ML improved 6 games from 2-14 to 8-8.
All I am asking (expecting) is Taylor to improve 4 games from 6-10 to 10-6 with in my opinion a better supporting cast.. Look back at the scores of the games in 2002 and you will see a bunch of blow outs ( double digit losses) versus 2018 double digit losses of 5, but 2018 team had double digit wins also, 2002 team had one big won). That tells me 2002 was a disaster, not close and anyone expecting 8-8 back then was drinking the Kool aid, but ML did it. The 2018 team was competitive, the 2002 team was not.

Palmer was drafted in 2003 (just for clarification, not calling you out or anything), but then you're right about him not starting his rookie year.

(02-04-2019, 01:49 AM)samhain Wrote: It's a tough comparison.  Marvin had some of the best player in the history of this franchise in place when he arrived.  Chad, TJ, Willie, Rudi, Levi, Braham, etc were a solid foundation.  Taylor will have AJ, Boyd and Mixon.  Other than that, there are many more question marks on offense.  No clear number 1 TE on the roster. Absolutely nobody of value on the right side of the o-line.  

On top of that, Marvin had a number 1 pick in his pocket coming in.  This was in a year when what many perceived to be a generational talent at quarterback was available in Palmer.  He was made to be a QB, had size, a rocket arm, and could make literally any throw.  Even if the Bengals had the number 1 pick, that guy is not in this draft.  

All of the skill guys were in place for Marvin.  Bookend tackles were in place, too.  On top of that, you had a guy coming in to lead your team for the next decade at qb.  Taylor will not have this luxury.  he's got the skill guys, but that's about all.  This team is looking at a 2-3 year rebuild to contend again.

That's the thing we ALL need to keep in perspective ... and all of this senseless arguing about who inherited a better group is just silly.

If we're honest with each other, the current Bengals team has a lot of holes ...

OFFENSE

We need a starting RG, a starting RT and maybe even a starting LT plus a decent OL backup or two.
We need a starting TE because I think Eifert is about done (too many injuries).
We need a #2 WR.
TOTAL OF 4 STARTERS NEEDED

DEFENSE

We need 3 LBers who can run like scalded dogs, who can cover and who can tackle and 1 or 2 better backups.
We need another CB or two and better backups.
We need a quality Edge rusher.
We need a quality interior DL plus someone who can be groomed to take over for Geno.
TOTAL OF 6 STARTERS NEEDED

So we need 10 starters ... 1/2 a football team ... and almost impossible to find thru the draft (assuming. of course, that we're NOT going to pay for a top-tier FA. 

(02-04-2019, 12:20 PM)PV Bengal Wrote: That's the thing we ALL need to keep in perspective ... and all of this senseless arguing about who inherited a better group is just silly.

If we're honest with each other, the current Bengals team has a lot of holes ...

OFFENSE

We need a starting RG, a starting RT and maybe even a starting LT plus a decent OL backup or two.
We need a starting TE because I think Eifert is about done (too many injuries).
We need a #2 WR.
TOTAL OF 4 STARTERS NEEDED

DEFENSE

We need 3 LBers who can run like scalded dogs, who can cover and who can tackle and 1 or 2 better backups.
We need another CB or two and better backups.
We need a quality Edge rusher.
We need a quality interior DL plus someone who can be groomed to take over for Geno.
TOTAL OF 6 STARTERS NEEDED

So we need 10 starters ... 1/2 a football team ... and almost impossible to find thru the draft (assuming. of course, that we're NOT going to pay for a top-tier FA. 

Agree with your assessment on offense, but might choose to differ with you about the defense needing 6 starters.

We don't "need" a starting edge rusher, we have Lawson and Hubbard.
We don't "need" 3 LBs, Vigil is a decent starter.  We need 2 more starting quality LBs.  (unless Burfict makes a magical turnaround)
With the emergence of Christian Ringo, and hopefully the recovered Glassgow back this year, we should be fine at DT.

So, after taking that into account, I'd say that we need 2-3 starters on defense.

(02-04-2019, 11:57 AM)McC Wrote: I've got a question.  Who gives a shit?  What is your aim here in this goofy argument anyway?

I think one of the Mods is bending over backwards to say the team is worse as Marvin is leaving than it was when he came in.  There can be no other reason to compare 2002 to 2018.  I agree with you that it is a who gives a shit argument.   It is pure illusion and magic trick to point to a couple players on the 2002 Bengals and say that was a good team.  The 2 win BUNGLES of 2002 were probably the worst team in Bengals history.  How Bad ?  This guy at work had season tickets.  He was trying to give them away. He offered them to me, but I said no thanks.  Nobody at work wanted his free BUNGLES tickets. He said at Bengals games fans were outside stadium giving their tickets away.  Forget scalping them.  People couldn't give tickets away to see 2002 BUNGLES.  Not just the 2 wins, but so boring, so awful. So 2002 was an awful team, people need to quit trying to look at the bright side of that team because it was just awful. So bad that Bungals games blacked out on TV was a GOOD thing. As one guy posted, 2002 Bungles had him watching soccer, lol.

So back to ARE WE CONTENDERS NOW ?  Again, No.  Yes 2018 Bengals had too many injuries. Yes, injuries a part of the game, but Bengals had about the whole team injured.  So injuries did factor into 2018.  Still, Last Place is not Contenders. 

CAN BENGALS BE CONTENDERS ?  Steelers Fans on internet are laughing at Coaches Bengals and Browns hiring and say Ravens QB is a fluke and it will be all Steelers.  However I say Puck Pittsburg.  Bengals have as much chance to be contenders as anybody in this division.  Bengals are making coaching changes for Roaring 20's Decade of Bengals.

(02-04-2019, 11:57 AM)McC Wrote: I've got a question.  Who gives a shit?  What is your aim here in this goofy argument anyway

Well you must give a shit or why post... 

(02-04-2019, 03:09 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Well you must give a shit or why post... 

So, in other words, the argument is goofy.

(02-04-2019, 11:57 AM)McC Wrote: I've got a question.  Who gives a shit? 

The people who absolutely lose their minds if anyone says anything positive about Marvin Lewis.

(02-04-2019, 03:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The people who absolutely lose their minds if anyone says anything positive about Marvin Lewis.

The good news is that fans of Coach Lewis will be able to get all the Marvin they want, when the AAF kicks off.  It's rumored that he's going to be a commentator.  I'm sure there'll be plenty of "hee hee hee", and healthy dose of classic Marvinisms like "They just need to work harder", and "they need to learn how to run on their own gas"..

(02-04-2019, 03:11 PM)McC Wrote: So, in other words, the argument is goofy.

that would be your  reply... it was a statement on the post.. not an argument.... 

(02-04-2019, 03:11 PM)McC Wrote: So, in other words, the argument is goofy.

Arguments/Debates are what keep this forum interesting. A bunch of guys circle jerking, not so much.

(02-04-2019, 03:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The people who absolutely lose their minds if anyone says anything positive about Marvin Lewis.

Marvin Lewis is past tense.  Reasonable people know how to move on and don't take anything good anyone says about the new guy as some kind of insult to the previous guy and don't have to come charging in and tell everyone how good Marvin was three years ago.  It's turned into spam now by Marvin's two or three man army.  But hey, spam on.

(02-04-2019, 12:20 PM)PV Bengal Wrote: That's the thing we ALL need to keep in perspective ... and all of this senseless arguing about who inherited a better group is just silly.

If we're honest with each other, the current Bengals team has a lot of holes ...

OFFENSE

We need a starting RG, a starting RT and maybe even a starting LT plus a decent OL backup or two.
We need a starting TE because I think Eifert is about done (too many injuries).
We need a #2 WR.
TOTAL OF 4 STARTERS NEEDED

DEFENSE

We need 3 LBers who can run like scalded dogs, who can cover and who can tackle and 1 or 2 better backups.
We need another CB or two and better backups.
We need a quality Edge rusher.
We need a quality interior DL plus someone who can be groomed to take over for Geno.
TOTAL OF 6 STARTERS NEEDED

So we need 10 starters ... 1/2 a football team ... and almost impossible to find thru the draft (assuming. of course, that we're NOT going to pay for a top-tier FA. 

Boyd came into his own last year and Ross still can be a good player, i don't think #2 WR is a need. We need one FA O-lineman and one FA Linebacker that can cover and tackle. I am interested in who our new LB coach is. This is where we need to improve, coaching. A new LB coach was badly needed. Lawson is a quality Edge rusher and Hubbard might grow into one, Dunlap is still good.

I think you forgot about a few players who are already on the team and got injured.

We don't have as many holes as you claim.

(02-04-2019, 06:16 PM)McC Wrote: Marvin Lewis is past tense.  Reasonable people know how to move on and don't take anything good anyone says about the new guy as some kind of insult to the previous guy and don't have to come charging in and tell everyone how good Marvin was three years ago.  It's turned into spam now by Marvin's two or three man army.  But hey, spam on.

Yeah, i want to move on, tired of talking about Marv.

(02-04-2019, 07:21 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, i want to move on, tired of talking about Marv.

Maybe we should start a "Marvin remembrance thread", so that those who wish can post about all of their favorite Marvin Lewis memories?  Perhaps I could even talk 'Holic into adding a musical backdrop to the opening post?  Something powerful, inspirational and uplifting, something like "The wind beneath my wings", by Bette Midler.  What do you think?  

(02-04-2019, 07:39 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Maybe we should start a "Marvin remembrance thread", so that those who wish can post about all of their favorite Marvin Lewis memories?  Perhaps I could even talk 'Holic into adding a musical backdrop to the opening post?  Something powerful, inspirational and uplifting, something like "The wind beneath my wings", by Bette Midler.  What do you think?  

Lol sounds good Sunset.

(02-04-2019, 07:39 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Maybe we should start a "Marvin remembrance thread", so that those who wish can post about all of their favorite Marvin Lewis memories?  Perhaps I could even talk 'Holic into adding a musical backdrop to the opening post?  Something powerful, inspirational and uplifting, something like "The wind beneath my wings", by Bette Midler.  What do you think?  

Sounds like you will like to limit free speech in this forum because you think it is OK for some to bash ML, but not OK to defend ML.

Why?

(02-04-2019, 08:12 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Sounds like you will like to limit free speech in this forum because you think it is OK for some to bash ML, but not OK to defend ML.

Why?

It was just a joke man, lighten up.

(02-04-2019, 08:12 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Sounds like you will like to limit free speech in this forum because you think it is OK for some to bash ML, but not OK to defend ML.

Why?

I'm not limiting anyone's free speech.  Secondly, where did I ever say it wasn't OK to defend Marvin Lewis?  If you take the time to look back (to the threads on Marvin leaving the team), I expressed nothing but respect and gratitude for what Marvin did for the team, and that his time had passed.

In this thread, I merely asserted that Marvin had better OL material to build from, than what Zac Taylor has today.  That's when "Marvin's Heros" started mounting an assault on my opinion.  I had no choice but to defend my point of view.  I'm sorry if that bothers you, but I'm not going to be shouted down by a couple of guys who's best responses are "2002 team sucked", and "2002 was all Mikey's team".  There was plenty of talented bodies on that team.  Most of them stayed on with Marvin Lewis and continued to have good careers.  The problems in '02 had little to nothing to do with the players, but everything to do with the coaching, team morale, and climate of the management.

Lastly, if my making a joke about making a Marvin remembrance thread bothered you?  You need a better sense of humor.  Those same people pining for Marvin now, should have lined up at PBS and protested his departure.