(04-03-2019, 10:46 AM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: Culture change can ONLY come from the top, nowhere else. The middle or bottom can attempt to change it (like CP in his day going to see the great tree sloth) but it wont stick. If the players and coaches know that deep down the owner wont do the things needed to truly compete it will wear them down and they cannot all then produce at 100%. It is Human Nature.

For a coach or player to say to himself "We will do the best we can given what we have" does not provide the same motivation as him saying "this team really wants to win and I have to do my part".  ZT can spout all he wants about how much the BHCF wants to win but after a while, after various attempts to get better players or or more help or a practice facility or whatever, he will get worn down - Bungalized if you like.

I really feel like the signing of Bobby Hart probably sent a bad message to the players too. They know that Bobby Hart isn't that good and to sign him to come back and be the starter on a healthy contract...well that had to atleast take some wind out of their sails.

People can rationalize it all they want...but he's a bad starter.

(04-03-2019, 11:11 AM)PV Bengal Wrote: OTOH, remember when Marvin first came here?

He inherited a lousy team (4 wins IIRC). I don't recall if he brought in any "top player talent" (I doubt that he did) and we were 8-8 the following year.

So a new coach, a new staff, new methods, etc. can help. Will we make the playoffs this season? My "talent meter" says no ... because we have at least 8 serious holes to fill (RG, RT, TE, LB1, LB2, CB, DL, Edge) and we can't fill them all in one draft.

I absolutely agree that the new regime can energize the players and possibly win more games than expected. My concern is will it stick? What will happen when these guys who have been “Bengalized” for a number of years find themselves in situations where the wheels usually come off?
Can they make the plays where they have failed before or will they continue to be what they’ve been?

It seems we will soon find out.

(04-03-2019, 11:11 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I really feel like the signing of Bobby Hart probably sent a bad message to the players too. They know that Bobby Hart isn't that good and to sign him to come back and be the starter on a healthy contract...well that had to atleast take some wind out of their sails.

People can rationalize it all they want...but he's a bad starter.

I agree, the players on this team would know the LB's and OL are well below the league average. Even the players themselves in these positions would know it. So what message has the team sent to the good players this off season other than the coaching change? Business as usual, no reason to work hard at improving the weakest position group. Very demotivating. There is no shortage of studies that show team (be it employees or players) and individual productivity is highest when the person is engaged. And they become engaged when they believe in the leadership, believe in the plan and understand their role in it. There is simply no way players can be engaged on this team to the level needed to be in the top tier. 

(04-03-2019, 12:12 PM)HuDey Wrote: I absolutely agree that the new regime can energize the players and possibly win more games than expected. My concern is will it stick? What will happen when these guys who have been “Bengalized” for a number of years find themselves in situations where the wheels usually come off?
Can they make the plays where they have failed before or will they continue to be what they’ve been?

It seems we will soon find out.

I think that IF we can have some initial success and win that playoff game and beat the Steelers that it will have an exponential effect.

That said, if we struggle and see more of the same this year...it's going to be hard to dig out of quickly.

There is a halo around new employees where people assume they know what they are doing. Taylor needs to prove they are correct. IF he doesn't and that halo perception erodes, it will be tough.

(04-03-2019, 10:38 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: One thing we'll have going for us early on is that we'll have a new offense and defense so teams will likely not be able to gameplan against us as easily.

Absolutely agree.

The offense will lag behind the defense in the beginning of the season, as the timing between the QB and receivers as well as line blocking and RB get in sync.

But once the timing gets worked out, we should have an advantage.

If Eifert comes back healthy, Taylor will have a weapon that was not there with the Rams.

I still feel that we need a pass catching FB on the roster.

(04-03-2019, 12:45 PM)XsandOs Wrote: Absolutely agree.

The offense will lag behind the defense in the beginning of the season, as the timing between the QB and receivers as well as line blocking and RB get in sync.

But once the timing gets worked out, we should have an advantage.

If Eifert comes back healthy, Taylor will have a weapon that was not there with the Rams.

I still feel that we need a pass catching FB on the roster.

I'd put Green, Boyd, Mixon, Bernard, and Eifert on the field at the same time some.

(04-03-2019, 11:11 AM)PV Bengal Wrote: OTOH, remember when Marvin first came here?

He inherited a lousy team (4 wins IIRC). I don't recall if he brought in any "top player talent" (I doubt that he did) and we were 8-8 the following year.

So a new coach, a new staff, new methods, etc. can help. Will we make the playoffs this season? My "talent meter" says no ... because we have at least 8 serious holes to fill (RG, RT, TE, LB1, LB2, CB, DL, Edge) and we can't fill them all in one draft.

With the return of IR players we aren't as thin in some of those positions as you may believe. If ZT can improve the offense and the defense can get off the field on third down we could contend with the other teams in the afcn.  We have zero chance at going deep in the PO's but if we improve to 9-7 or better it will be a building block for future teams.

(04-03-2019, 09:05 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: With the return of IR players we aren't as thin in some of those positions as you may believe. If ZT can improve the offense and the defense can get off the field on third down we could contend with the other teams in the afcn.  We have zero chance at going deep in the PO's but if we improve to 9-7 or better it will be a building block for future teams.

There will be players injured this year too. It happens every year. It's a constant thing in football.

(04-03-2019, 09:59 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: There will be players injured this year too. It happens every year. It's a constant thing in football.

True but you have to admit last year was brutal. If we or any team loses their QB, #1 and #2 receivers , #1,2,3 TEs THEY AREN"T GOING TO WIN MANY GAMES

(04-03-2019, 12:49 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'd put Green, Boyd, Mixon, Bernard, and Eifert on the field at the same time some.

I have always liked two back sets. With a TE that is a pass catching threat, a two back set can be virtually indefensible - especially if both backs can catch.

You get 5 receiving options with the luxury of three serving as blockers if needed.

Bernard on a wheel route on any LB is a mismatch. Eifert on a LB is win.

If they counter with three safeties, you bludgeon them with runs up the gut.

When you look at the skill offensive positions on this Team, it's scary. Obviously none of it matters if the line can't block, but I think this unit will benefit from having been together for one year.

(04-02-2019, 07:02 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Shouldn't of let Whit go, biggest mistake our FO made in the last decade IMO.

Or Zeitler.

(04-03-2019, 09:59 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: There will be players injured this year too. It happens every year. It's a constant thing in football.

Right, but last year was an anomaly Pistons.....we had WR1, QB, TE1, TE2, DE, DT, DT, DE, MLB, all wound up on IR.  That's not missing a game or two, we're talking season ending IR.  Then, some of those backups to these positions went on IR.  There were other starters that missed significant time like Vigil, Price, Dennard, and Burfict.

What the poster you replied to was saying is that the team is a little bit deeper than it appeared last season, and that is true.  There were 20 some odd players on IR, and a few others out for extended periods, IN ADDITION to the normal wear and tear and bumps and bruises.  Come on ol buddy, not every single aspect is a shit sandwich.

(04-03-2019, 10:53 PM)XsandOs Wrote: I have always liked two back sets. With a TE that is a pass catching threat, a two back set can be virtually indefensible - especially if both backs can catch.

You get 5 receiving options with the luxury of three serving as blockers if needed.

Bernard on a wheel route on any LB is a mismatch. Eifert on a LB is win.

If they counter with three safeties, you bludgeon them with runs up the gut.

When you look at the skill offensive positions on this Team, it's scary. Obviously none of it matters if the line can't block, but I think this unit will benefit from having been together for one year.

Well said, and I agree with all of this.  It seems our last 2 OCs forgot that we could use Gio and Mixon together.  They downright forgot Gio was on the team last season after Mixon came back from injury.  Remember the two games that featured Bernard?  It's not like he forgot how to play.  It boggles the mind to think about how underutilized he was.

This is where improved coaching could indeed turn this around rather quickly, regardless of what people want to believe.  If the line improves even a little bit, these skill players could be very dangerous with quality playcalling and personnel utilization.  We just gotta hope that ZT and staff brings this to the table.  I honestly feel like that will indeed be the case on offense.....kinda concerned on D, but we will see.

(04-04-2019, 09:21 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Well said, and I agree with all of this.  It seems our last 2 OCs forgot that we could use Gio and Mixon together.  They downright forgot Gio was on the team last season after Mixon came back from injury.  Remember the two games that featured Bernard?  It's not like he forgot how to play.  It boggles the mind to think about how underutilized he was.

This is where improved coaching could indeed turn this around rather quickly, regardless of what people want to believe.  If the line improves even a little bit, these skill players could be very dangerous with quality playcalling and personnel utilization.  We just gotta hope that ZT and staff brings this to the table.  I honestly feel like that will indeed be the case on offense.....kinda concerned on D, but we will see.

It saddens me that Og and Fisher didn't work out. Coupled with Whit and Zeitler departure, our skill players couldn't be utilized as effectively.

On defense, I am also concerned. Inability to develop LBs after multiple picks (4 LBs in the past 4 years - all in 3rd round) is the reason our D is weakened.

Hopefully the new coaches will develop and utilize Jefferson, Evans and Vigil appropriately.

(04-04-2019, 10:08 AM)XsandOs Wrote: It saddens me that Og and Fisher didn't work out. Coupled with Whit and Zeitler departure, our skill players couldn't be utilized as effectively.

On defense, I am also concerned. Inability to develop LBs after multiple picks (4 LBs in the past 4 years - all in 3rd round) is the reason our D is weakened.

Hopefully the new coaches will develop and utilize Jefferson, Evans and Vigil appropriately.

Absolutely, and finally draft a NFL ready prospect at the LB position.  Personnel development at some positions were a weakness of the previous staff, IMO.  We just have to hope that Taylor is as advertised, and his selections on the staff are good teachers and motivators.

(04-04-2019, 10:08 AM)XsandOs Wrote: It saddens me that Og and Fisher didn't work out. Coupled with Whit and Zeitler departure, our skill players couldn't be utilized as effectively.

On defense, I am also concerned. Inability to develop LBs after multiple picks (4 LBs in the past 4 years - all in 3rd round) is the reason our D is weakened.

Hopefully the new coaches will develop and utilize Jefferson, Evans and Vigil appropriately.

I'd also add, I was just reminded that the only player from the 2015 draft left on the roster is Uzomah.  To only get a TE2 from a complete draft that even stuck with the team, let alone garner any production, is a setback to the overall health and depth of the organization.  That was a huge flop all around.

(04-04-2019, 10:43 AM)Wyche Wrote: I'd also add, I was just reminded that the only player from the 2015 draft left on the roster is Uzomah.  To only get a TE2 from a complete draft that even stuck with the team, let alone garner any production, is a setback to the overall health and depth of the organization.  That was a huge flop all around.

From the 2014 Draft, ONLY Dennard is still on the roster.

From the 2012 Draft, ONLY Kirkpatrick is still on the roster.

(04-04-2019, 10:57 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: From the 2014 Draft, ONLY Dennard is still on the roster.

From the 2012 Draft, ONLY Kirkpatrick is still on the roster.

Surprising about 2014.....but not at all about 2012.  That was 7 years ago.  We had the bulk of the 2015 class not even make it past their rookie contracts....and the two left from the other drafts are starters. At least we got production from them.

(04-04-2019, 11:13 AM)Wyche Wrote: Surprising about 2014.....but not at all about 2012.  That was 7 years ago.  We had the bulk of the 2015 class not even make it past their rookie contracts.

That kills a team...especially IF you don't rely on external free agency much.

I started threads several years ago about how the core of the team was being ripped apart by free agency. Nobody seemed to acknowledge it.

(04-04-2019, 11:14 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: That kills a team...especially IF you don't rely on external free agency much.

I started threads several years ago about how the core of the team was being ripped apart by free agency. Nobody seemed to acknowledge it.

No, I am with you on all of that.  I agreed then too.....and the biggest issue was not trying to replace those players with adequate FAs.  This team should have known from the jump that Ole' hi would never get it....everyone else did.