Jim Miller and Pat Kirwin are going to be talking AFC North pass rushing today and I'm sure they'll have Cincy at the bottom. To make matters worse they'll likely have that "Dave from Cincy" dude call in (he has to be a prop) and make the fanbase look more foolish clueless. While everyone will be slobbing over Pitt and Cleveland.

There's a chance I'll call in and try to make a case for use, but I need your help. Give me some ammo. AKA....why we were last in sacks last year, what additions we have going forward, does the coaching change make a difference, ect.. I know Fred brings up something about Hubbard last year. Or give me something that will cause the other AFC North teams to fail.

So what do we have? Also I don't have to be the one to call in. If anyone else plans to, wants to. The number is 1-800-NFL-KICK and the show starts at 3 PM on Sirius channel 88. If you call in do it early; as you'll be on hold for a while if you can get through.

BTW, if "Dave from Cincy" is a board member...no offense.

Lol that guy is “Cincy Dave” and he gets grief from those guys


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Bring up that Dunlap has been top 15 (and top 10, for the majority of his career) for pressures per rush since he became the FT starter in 2013 and that Geno is a HOFer.

Mention that darkhorse would be Lawson, who could possibly be our best, pure pass rusher.

Yes, Hubbard will make strides too.

That's all I got.

(05-15-2019, 02:27 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Jim Miller and Pat Kirwin are going to be talking AFC North pass rushing today and I'm sure they'll have Cincy at the bottom. To make matters worse they'll likely have that "Dave from Cincy" dude call in (he has to be a prop) and make the fanbase look more foolish clueless. While everyone will be slobbing over Pitt and Cleveland.

There's a chance I'll call in and try to make a case for use, but I need your help. Give me some ammo. AKA....why we were last in sacks last year, what additions we have going forward, does the coaching change make a difference, ect.. I know Fred brings up something about Hubbard last year. Or give me something that will cause the other AFC North teams to fail.

So what do we have? Also I don't have to be the one to call in. If anyone else plans to, wants to. The number is 1-800-NFL-KICK and the show starts at 3 PM on Sirius channel 88. If you call in do it early; as you'll be on hold for a while if you can get through.

BTW, if "Dave from Cincy" is a board member...no offense.

It's been discussed previously, but one has to wonder how much of the lack of pass rush had to do with the middle of the field being basically uncovered by such poor LB play.

(05-15-2019, 02:33 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Bring up that Dunlap has been top 15 (and top 10, for the majority of his career) for pressures per rush since he became the FT starter in 2013 and that Geno is a HOFer.

Mention that darkhorse would be Lawson, who could possibly be our best, pure pass rusher.

Yes, Hubbard will make strides too.

That's all I got.

I think Lawson will be the big bullet. His injury last year hurt, his rookie year he was the only Rookie Edge Rusher to earn a "triple double" 10 sacks, 11 hits, 38 hurries. I'll also look to see how/if our production fell of last year after he went down

(05-15-2019, 02:34 PM)Wyche Wrote: It's been discussed previously, but one has to wonder how much of the lack of pass rush had to do with the middle of the field being basically uncovered by such poor LB play.

Good point. 

Replacing our full-time RDE who only had 9 sacks in the last 3 years should help.

(05-15-2019, 02:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think Lawson will be the big bullet. His injury last year hurt, his rookie year he was the only Rookie Edge Rusher to earn a "triple double" 10 sacks, 11 hits, 38 hurries. I'll also look to see how/if our production fell of last year after he went down

Agreed.  Not only him, but the return of Glassgow helps some, and maybe Billings continues to improve.  Then we have the wildcard we drafted at DT this year.

(05-15-2019, 02:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Replacing our full-time RDE who only had 9 sacks in the last 3 years should help.

No doubt.

Lawson could be a force IF he's healthy and can finish sacks off. Hubbard shows good potential there too.

So we have 4 guys who can pass rush really well.

I'd say guys like Williams and Dennard are decent pass rushers for secondary guys too.

The best way to fix our pass rush, is coverage from LB's so they don't have easy dump downs.

(05-15-2019, 02:34 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: It's been discussed previously, but one has to wonder how much of the lack of pass rush had to do with the middle of the field being basically uncovered by such poor LB play.

Let’s add poor coverage from the secondary too. Good defensive back play results in more “coverage sacks” where no one is open and the quarterback is forced to pull the ball down and take a sack. Cincinnati played with far too much cushion in the secondary for coverage sacks to happen.

Here is a stat you might want to consider-
When Lawson played 45% or more in a game the Bengals were 4-0. Also the pass rush was better in the 4 games 12(per 16 game pace 48) sacks and 36 ( 144 QB hits). All stats by pro football reference.

In games where he played 30% or less Bengals were 2-10, 47 QB hits( 64 hits per 16 game pace), and 22 sacks(29 per 16 games).

Hopefully the scheme change helps. Last year while Austin was running things, it appeared the d-line was held to doing mush-rush. Basically rush the passer within your lane and don’t let the QB break contain. I’d like to see guys like Dunlap, Lawson and Hubbard have more freedom to improvise and use multiple moves.

when the Bengals were 4 and 1 last year
they were in the top.half of the league in team sacks overall.

accumalating sacks depends on various factors.

for instance...when a team has a lead in the 4th q.
and its looking to melt the clock....the offense will have max protection.....extra TE...2 extra TEs....maybe a occasional
pass with a 3 to 5 step dropback.
much harder to rush the qb push the pocket especially in 4 3 scheme
where do much of the pressure is expected from the front 4.

now if the Bengsls are leading in 4th q. by 9 10 pts etc...its easier
to put heat on the QB.
the offense now has to go with less blockers as they bring a extra WR or TE on the field.
less blocker....equals one more pass rusher in the form of a CB off the slot or a saftey up the a or b gap.

(05-15-2019, 03:59 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Here is a stat you might want to consider-
When Lawson played 45% or more in a game the Bengals were 4-0. Also the pass rush was better in the 4 games 12(per 16 game pace 48) sacks and 36 ( 144 QB hits). All stats by pro football reference.

In games where he played 30% or less Bengals were 2-10, 47 QB hits( 64 hits per 16 game pace), and 22 sacks(29 per 16 games).

I wonder if some of that has to do with him being used in pass rushing situations and when you're behind the opponents run a lot.

Still...Lawson does need to be on the field A LOT.

If Sam Hubbard can turn into a 10 sack guy it would be huge for the defense because he will be on the field in first and second downs. Hubbard might not have the quickest first step but he has great hands it's hard for offensive linemen stay on him.

Also guys like Ryan Glasgow, Rennell Wren, and Andrew Brown (injured early last year) could be pieces in the middle.

The only guy I left out is Jordan Willis because I believe he has alot of physical traits but no bend...I think he could be a decent rusher in the nickle at Defensice Tackle.

(05-15-2019, 05:24 PM)Synric Wrote: If Sam Hubbard can turn into a 10 sack guy it would be huge for the defense because he will be on the field in first and second downs. Hubbard might not have the quickest first step but he has great hands it's hard for offensive linemen stay on him.

Also guys like Ryan Glasgow, Rennell Wren, and Andrew Brown (injured early last year) could be pieces in the middle.

The only guy I left out is Jordan Willis because I believe he has alot of physical traits but no bend...I think he could be a decent rusher in the nickle at Defensice Tackle.

I like Hubbard's potential A LOT. I could see him turning into a TJ Watt-type. (Not JJ.) Hubbard has a high motor too, which is EXACTLY what we need on defense.

Glasgow had REALLY HIGH PFF grades last year in the small sample size that he played. I'd argue that he was every bit as big of a loss as Carl Lawson and Eifert.

(05-15-2019, 04:29 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Hopefully the scheme change helps. Last year while Austin was running things, it appeared the d-line was held to doing mush-rush. Basically rush the passer within your lane and don’t let the QB break contain. I’d like to see guys like Dunlap, Lawson and Hubbard have more freedom to improvise and use multiple moves.

This is outstanding. +1!

I love the “mush-rush” description because it’s true. Watching talent like Geno Atkins basically wrestling offensive linemen was so frustrating because defensive line play has developed far beyond the standard bull rush scheme of yesteryear. I can sort of see where Teryl Austin came from because coaching Ndamukong Suh and Ziggy Ansah in Detroit, both of whom are Justin Smith-esque bull rush guys, isn’t the same as mentoring Geno or especially Carlos Dunlap.

Geno is more of a leverage player and Carlos needs to learn spin moves, etc, which take advantage of his height and speed. The Bengals haven’t actually run defensive line stunts since Mike Zimmer was here, either.

Go on YouTube and look at some of the highlights from the Bengals defense when Mike Zimmer was here. The difference between then and now is shocking. Have a barf bag handy.

Took longer at the DR's office than expected and haven't got to tune in. Still got a couple hours.

(05-15-2019, 05:16 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I wonder if some of that has to do with him being used in pass rushing situations and when you're behind the opponents run a lot.

Still...Lawson does need to be on the field A LOT.

I don't think so we were down for the majority of the games against the Colts, Falcons, and Dolphins.

(05-15-2019, 02:34 PM)Wyche Wrote: It's been discussed previously, but one has to wonder how much of the lack of pass rush had to do with the middle of the field being basically uncovered by such poor LB play.

I agree, and this is and has been my position, whenever someone likes to point to how poorly the DL performed last season.  Uncovered receivers are usually going to see the ball about 2 seconds after the snap.  Even the best DL in the league aren't going to get to the QB in under 2 seconds, not on any sort of regular basis anyway.