(05-20-2019, 04:55 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: And really, to find out how good or bad Marvin is...leaving the management variable the same and changing the coaching variable is how to do it.

The roster largely stayed the same with the addition of draft picks.

My concern with Taylor is I think people feel we hired McVay...but Taylor was the Assistant WR Coach in Year 1 with the Rams and the QB Coach last year. That's a far cry from the guy who designed the schemes.

I do wish he brought more Rams assistants with him too.

If you're going to keep emphasizing ZT's lack of experience, then you need to be willing to give him some time to grow into the role (I'm sure the Bengals are). Marvin came with mountains of experience.

(05-20-2019, 06:51 PM)NKURyan Wrote: I'm going to disagree. I think a big reason he struggled as much as he did in year 2 is because they basically redshirted him his rookie year. That's valuable experience that he missed out on.

And look, maybe Ross struggled with the playbook, maybe he was making some poor decisions on the field, I don't know. I think a good coach does everything he can to put a player - especially a young one - in a position to succeed. You can't tell me they couldn't have given Ross more chances on screen passes (which they never seem to throw to him) or reverses (which they basically stopped calling for him after he fumbled once) to at least build some confidence for the guy. Call the guy's number on a designed play and boost that guy up, don't ignore him, especially when a quick screen play or slant would only help your struggling offensive line.

You see it all the time when you watch good QBs, and commentators mention it all the time - "Andrew Luck goes right back to receiver X after he dropped the last one to show him he still has faith in him". That's how you build chemistry between the two. With Ross, it seemed like it was always "Well, he messed up on the one play we're going to give him a shot, so screw him we'll just play shorthanded the rest of the way".

If I had to pick a player that I think will have the biggest turnaround next year, I'm going with Ross. He's going to benefit from having actual competent offensive minds on staff more than anyone, because even if he does have huge holes in his game they'll find a way to play to his strengths.

I think they use him wrong. They constantly run him deep. That's not going to be his game in the NFL. They should be using him over the middle and getting him the ball in space where he can outrun guys. Then occasionally send him deep.

I would say that there's not reason he couldn't get 800 yards this year...but I think a lot of his issue is mental. That's what he needs to overcome.

I think Mixon will have 1400+ yards rushing.

Hmmm...who would I pick for a breakout year? I'd probably go with Ross or Price on offense and William Jackson making the Pro Bowl on defense.

Notice a lot of players were happy with today's practice. Why? Because it was uptempo.

That shows players like Green and Dalton recognized an issue in everything being done too slow before and like that ZT is pushing the team to play fast and crisp.

(05-20-2019, 07:55 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think they use him wrong. They constantly run him deep. That's not going to be his game in the NFL. They should be using him over the middle and getting him the ball in space where he can outrun guys. Then occasionally send him deep.

I would say that there's not reason he couldn't get 800 yards this year...but I think a lot of his issue is mental. That's what he needs to overcome.

I think Mixon will have 1400+ yards rushing.

Hmmm...who would I pick for a breakout year? I'd probably go with Ross or Price on offense and William Jackson making the Pro Bowl on defense.

IMO if it's mental (and I would agree with you that it might be) that falls at least partially on the coaching staff.

(05-20-2019, 09:16 PM)Joelist Wrote: Notice a lot of players were happy with today's practice. Why? Because it was uptempo.

That shows players like Green and Dalton recognized an issue in everything being done too slow before and like that ZT is pushing the team to play fast and crisp.

You guys are funny. Any time the players say they like something in a comment...you guys morph that into some displeasure with the way Marvin did things.

Players are generally going to be positive to the media.

Players are generally going to like Taylor. He's new.

I don't think the players hated everything that Marvin did.

(05-20-2019, 10:02 PM)NKURyan Wrote: IMO if it's mental (and I would agree with you that it might be) that falls at least partially on the coaching staff.

I think one place where mental comes in is some elite guys can get by with athleticism in college. They're just faster and more athletic than other guys.

Then you get to the Pros and that advantage is gone or much much smaller. I think that's what he had issues mentally adjusting to.

It's on Ross too. They brought TJ in to work with him.

I think Ross's 40 time put a lot of pressure and attention on him too.

(05-20-2019, 10:21 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You guys are funny. Any time the players say they like something in a comment...you guys morph that into some displeasure with the way Marvin did things.

Players are generally going to be positive to the media.

Players are generally going to like Taylor. He's new.

I don't think the players hated everything that Marvin did.

Really? Or maybe the fact that they both stated they liked the fast tempo and that it was different might mean that....they liked the fast tempo and that it was different. If they liked the fast tempo and noted it being different it is completely logical to see it as evidence they recognized the issue just about everyone not on the old staff recognized of the team running plays too slowly and the lack of crispness.

Seriously, go watch the sun rise. Do something that makes you happy instead of hopping from thread to thread in here being a killjoy. Looking at the good in things is actually healthy. 

(05-21-2019, 02:15 AM)Joelist Wrote: Really? Or maybe the fact that they both stated they liked the fast tempo and that it was different might mean that....they liked the fast tempo and that it was different. If they liked the fast tempo and noted it being different it is completely logical to see it as evidence they recognized the issue just about everyone not on the old staff recognized of the team running plays too slowly and the lack of crispness.

Seriously, go watch the sun rise. Do something that makes you happy instead of hopping from thread to thread in here being a killjoy. Looking at the good in things is actually healthy. 

You guys stretch to read negatives about Marvin into everything the players say was my point. They can like fast tempo without it meaning 'the way we did things before was terrible.'

Maybe it just means they liked the fast tempo and nothing more?

I'm sure you could go out and read good quotes from the players on Lazor and Zampese if you looked. Players give positive quotes. They're not going to be like Wow - We hate the fast pace!

If you're an NFL player and you need a coach to "maximize your effort" then your shouldn't be in the NFL.

Someone should have asked Vigil a follow up question: "So, were you not giving it your maximum effort then last year?"

(05-16-2019, 11:25 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Why the hell didn't vigil or any other player say anything about this last year?

This is nothing but generic player speak used to suck up to the new coaches. If grown men need to be told to play hard then they need to be replaced.

This. 

(05-21-2019, 09:59 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: If you're an NFL player and you need a coach to "maximize your effort" then your shouldn't be in the NFL.

Someone should have asked Vigil a follow up question: "So, were you not giving it your maximum effort then last year?"

I totally agree. I do wish I'd be hearing more about how great their scheme is...but it's really early and the scheme may not be 100% drawn up.

I don't know what to think about 'Play hard'. I think we're all readying way too much into it.

(05-21-2019, 09:59 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: If you're an NFL player and you need a coach to "maximize your effort" then your shouldn't be in the NFL.

Someone should have asked Vigil a follow up question: "So, were you not giving it your maximum effort then last year?"

I would agree with that, but here's an example of how that doesn't always work.

I'm a pretty self-motivated guy.  I work my butt off to get my projects done even if I have to pull the rest of the team with me.  About four years ago, a friend and I worked together on a project where the two of us did literally 80% of the work (I had the metrics to back it up). This seriously strained my ability to self-motivate.

My current project is similar.  I'm on a team of two software developers.  The other developer on the project has contributed absolutely nothing (again, I have the metrics to back it up) in six months.  Fortunately, this project ends next week because I am starting to lose that self-motivation.

I've never been an NFL player, but I can imagine some of the guys feeling the same way if they saw the coaches lacking enthusiasm and motivation themselves, or if they felt like they were the only ones trying. 

Positive energy is contagious, but so is negative energy or a lack of energy at all.  After sixteen years, Marvin sure seemed to be the very definition of "lack of energy."

(05-20-2019, 04:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is the point you are missing.

You all call for the benching of starters.  Marvin does the OPPOSIT of that and the defense improves from 20th in points and 25th in yards to 3rd in points and 9th in yards.  Yet you still insist that you were RIGHT and Marvin was WRONG.  You ***** about him having great success just because it proved you wrong.

So even when he proves you all wrong you still try to shit on him.

Don't you realize how ridiculous that makes you look?

I didn't call for it, the defensive coordinator did.

I didn't shit on him, I gave him credit for turning our defense around last season.  I merely pointed out that our DC was holding people accountable, and then Marvin stepped on his toes.  The defense turned it around, great.  What caused them to play like shit to start with?  What motivated them to perform better afterward?

(05-21-2019, 11:24 AM)Earendil Wrote: I would agree with that, but here's an example of how that doesn't always work.

I'm a pretty self-motivated guy.  I work my butt off to get my projects done even if I have to pull the rest of the team with me.  About four years ago, a friend and I worked together on a project where the two of us did literally 80% of the work (I had the metrics to back it up). This seriously strained my ability to self-motivate.

My current project is similar.  I'm on a team of two software developers.  The other developer on the project has contributed absolutely nothing (again, I have the metrics to back it up) in six months.  Fortunately, this project ends next week because I am starting to lose that self-motivation.

I've never been an NFL player, but I can imagine some of the guys feeling the same way if they saw the coaches lacking enthusiasm and motivation themselves, or if they felt like they were the only ones trying. 

Positive energy is contagious, but so is negative energy or a lack of energy at all.  After sixteen years, Marvin sure seemed to be the very definition of "lack of energy."

But this all comes down to Mike Brown and his family running the show in Cincy.  If the players got bummed out by Marvin, why didn't Marvin and eventually ZT get bummed out by Mike Brown?  Crapola rolls downhill, no?

Since we are using work analogies, how often do idealistic new employees join a company and then get beaten into submission by a nepotistically-driven teflon management system? 

I liked Marvin, but there may have been some reason he seemed incapable of keeping assistant coaches for more than a few seasons unless they were chronically underperforming.. I don't have the answer, but the assistants who did stick around for long periods were guys seemingly nobody else wanted..piano man, the Hayes brothers, etc..
We don't know how this will end up with Taylor's regime, if we'll keep seeing a revolving door OC and DC policy or not, but that seemed to be an ongoing problem under Marvin..When it was perceived those guys were doing a decent job they seemed to always go elsewhere and those who seemed to stagnate stayed with Marvin forever.. How we may have thought of Marvin as a person was irrelevant ,,as a head coach? Another story entirely..  We'll see how it plays out with Taylor or if he'll even be around after a few seasons.. It's all yet to be determined.. 

(05-21-2019, 11:47 AM)grampahol Wrote: I liked Marvin, but there may have been some reason he seemed incapable of keeping assistant coaches for more than a few seasons unless they were chronically underperforming.. I don't have the answer, but the assistants who did stick around for long periods were guys seemingly nobody else wanted..piano man, the Hayes brothers, etc..
We don't know how this will end up with Taylor's regime, if we'll keep seeing a revolving door OC and DC policy or not, but that seemed to be an ongoing problem under Marvin..When it was perceived those guys were doing a decent job they seemed to always go elsewhere and those who seemed to stagnate stayed with Marvin forever.. How we may have thought of Marvin as a person was irrelevant ,,as a head coach? Another story entirely..  We'll see how it plays out with Taylor or if he'll even be around after a few seasons.. It's all yet to be determined.. 

Assistants left here to take HC jobs. That's a healthy progression.

(05-20-2019, 10:21 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You guys are funny. Any time the players say they like something in a comment...you guys morph that into some displeasure with the way Marvin did things.

Players are generally going to be positive to the media.

Players are generally going to like Taylor. He's new.

I don't think the players hated everything that Marvin did.

Most of these guys have never played under anybody other than Marvin. It's very possible that it's been somewhat eye-opening in the how they've done things differently.

It's May and there's not a lot of Bengals new to talk about, so yeah fans are going to dive into what little things we need. It beats starting thread #4257 about how Mike Brown isn't a good owner.

I think it's funny that the same people saying "players are generally going to be positive to the media" cried out in outrage back when ZT said something positive about working with Mike Brown. 

(05-21-2019, 11:24 AM)Earendil Wrote: I would agree with that, but here's an example of how that doesn't always work.

I'm a pretty self-motivated guy.  I work my butt off to get my projects done even if I have to pull the rest of the team with me.  About four years ago, a friend and I worked together on a project where the two of us did literally 80% of the work (I had the metrics to back it up). This seriously strained my ability to self-motivate.

My current project is similar.  I'm on a team of two software developers.  The other developer on the project has contributed absolutely nothing (again, I have the metrics to back it up) in six months.  Fortunately, this project ends next week because I am starting to lose that self-motivation.

I've never been an NFL player, but I can imagine some of the guys feeling the same way if they saw the coaches lacking enthusiasm and motivation themselves, or if they felt like they were the only ones trying. 

Positive energy is contagious, but so is negative energy or a lack of energy at all.  After sixteen years, Marvin sure seemed to be the very definition of "lack of energy."

Right on. It's human nature.

It's been my experience, everyone needs to have a fire lit under their asses from time to time. Having energy in leadership positions goes along way from having to light that fire too often.

(05-21-2019, 12:11 PM)sandwedge Wrote: It's been my experience, everyone needs to have a fire lit under their asses from time to time. Having energy in leadership positions goes along way from having to light that fire too often.

And yet so few of us wanted Jim Harbaugh here!